A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterization

[horatio83]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

No, this is factually wrong.
Sulu is the one who never got anything to do or say besides "yes sir, Warp 5" and fighting in "Naked Time" before TUC whereas Mayweather got a scene in the pilot (the "sweet spot") and two Travis episodes. I know nothing about Sulu whereas Mayweather has an actual biography, a background before he served on the NX-01.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

No. Sulu is the one who never got anything to do or say besides "yes sir, Warp 5" and fighting in "Naked Time" before TUC whereas Mayweather got a scene in the pilot (the "sweet spot") and two Travis episodes. He probably got on average far more than twice the amount of Sulu's lines.

Not even remotely.

During TOS, we learned that Sulu was a fencer, that he was into classic literature, and had a bit of a sarcastic side to him.

What can be said about Mayweather other than he's rather bland?

 

[horatio83]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

Ehm, once again no. Mayweather has far more screen time than Sulu. He has two character episodes while Sulu has none.

What is bland about having been born in space, grown up on a cargo ship and now serving on the first Starfleet vessel which explores deep space while you are the only one on it who has actually some (admittedly not so deep) space experience?
If you take the mere character setup and ignore the actual performances Mayweather is easily the most interesting human character on the show. But, alas, the guy couldn't act whereas e.g. Trinneer or Keating made far more out of characters which were at least conceptually (a relaxed Southern boy and a stiff Brit) less interesting.

We can also compare Uhura and Sato. Would you seriously claim that the latter character ho got more to say than "hailing frequencies open sir" is actually better? Do you seriously wanna go on claiming that ALL characters in VOY and ENT are flat while denying that TOS featured two undeveloped characters, Uhura and Sulu who got virtually no screen time or background? Hell, one of them didn't even get a first name in the show!

By the way, I don't wanna claim that all of this makes ENT kick ass and TOS suck. My point is rather that TOS worked despite of its abysmal non-troika major characters. Perhaps it actually worked because it only focused upon three instead of seven or more?

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

Sorry, but Mayweather was indeed bland. He was just there to drive the ship. Not much of a character, just barely more than an extra on the show.

 

[horatio83]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

OK, so you wanna go on denying facts. Fine with me.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

No, I'm just telling the facts and you're not listening. But that's fine with me.

 

[horatio83]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

Ridiculous. We are not talking, as before, about something highly intricate and subjective like whether the character or writers are to blame. This is objective, factual stuff like how much screen time a character got and no matter how much you lie, Mayweather had two character episodes (Fortunate Son and Horizon), a little bit to do in the pilot and the ending plus all the just sitting at the helm stuff whereas Sulu had the sitting and the helm stuff plus one scene in Naked Time.

But hey, perhaps I am missing all those Sulu character episodes in which the spotlight was on him. Care to point them out? And gee, perhaps I also missed Sulu's enormous character setup, his biography. Would you mind to point it out?

Anyway, it is funny to see how far you gotta bend backwards and make shit up to defend your ridiculous "ALL ENT and VOY characters are flat" nonsense. Although I frankly admit that TOS is my least favourite series I try to be fair and actually point out e.g. the benefits of what might seem like a disadvantage, four underdeveloped and underused secondary main character.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

You haven't watched TOS, have you?

But you're trying awfully hard to prove something about Mayweather that isn't.

 

[Harvey]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

Travis certainly had more featured episodes than Sulu ever got -- by my count, two, whereas Sulu had zero. Having said that, during episodes which did not center upon Travis, his character often receded so far into the background that the only difference between him and an extra was main title billing. Sulu often got little moments that helped define his character in a way that Travis never did -- especially in the third and four seasons of Enterprise, when he often didn't even have a speaking role.

I suppose you could blame this on Anthony Montgomery's acting -- except that he's been far better and more interesting in other roles on other shows (and in movies). This leads me to believe that the writing staff didn't know how to develop the character.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

Travis certainly had more featured episodes than Sulu ever got -- by my count, two, whereas Sulu had zero. Having said that, during episodes which did not center upon Travis, his character often receded so far into the background that the only difference between him and an extra was main title billing. Sulu often got little moments that helped define his character in a way that Travis never did -- especially in the third and four seasons of Enterprise, when he often didn't even have a speaking role.

I suppose you could blame this on Anthony Montgomery's acting -- except that he's been far better and more interesting in other roles on other shows (and in movies). This leads me to believe that the writing staff didn't know how to develop the character.

Exactly. Heck, I thought Mongtomery could even have played a decent captain. He's actually was capable of generating more fire than Bakula was as Archer.

 

[horatio83]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

You haven't watched TOS, have you?

But you're trying awfully hard to prove something about Mayweather that isn't.

I have but whatever TOS and ENT you watched has little to do with the shows everybody else has seen.

Still waiting for the stuff about the Sulu character episodes and the enormous Sulu background biography. Take your time.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

You haven't watched TOS, have you?

But you're trying awfully hard to prove something about Mayweather that isn't.

I have but whatever TOS and ENT you watched has little to do with the shows everybody else has seen.

Still waiting for the stuff about the Sulu character episodes and the enormous Sulu background biography. Take your time.

If you've already seen TOS, then you already know the episodes I've alluded to about Sulu, so this is just denial on your part. Whatever.

 

[horatio83]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

So you do indeed live in another universe. In THIS universe there are no Sulu episodes. There are a few character moments but they don't amount to even roughly sketching out this character ... which is less than Mayweather got.

By the way, my point is not that Mayweather is a better character just because he has more screen time and a better character setup. I like Sulu more.

It shouldn't be that hard to separate facts and opinions, not even when you have strong opinions and loathe e.g. all the characters on a show.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

So you do indeed live in another universe. In THIS universe there are no Sulu episodes.

What is this, grade school stuff?

There are a few character moments but they don't amount to even roughly sketching out this character ... which is less than Mayweather got.

Which goes back to what I've said about Mayweather not really being much of a character. He has a background that was touched upon in a couple of episodes, but that was it. It was even downplayed fairly quickly in the series, with T'Pol becoming the most experienced space traveler on the ship. As originally written, that was Mayweather's angle. He also was supposed to be best friends with Tucker, something that was also dropped by the wayside.

By the way, my point is not that Mayweather is a better character just because he has more screen time and a better character setup.

That has been my point all along. It doesn't matter if you have more screen time and a better character set up if most of your lines are "Yes, sir" and "Aye, sir."

It shouldn't be that hard to separate facts and opinions, not even when you have strong opinions and loathe e.g. all the characters on a show.

That's actually what I've been thinking.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

Most productive, sensible debate ever.

10/10

GG

 

[horatio83]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

That has been my point all along. It doesn't matter if you have more screen time and a better character set up if most of your lines are "Yes, sir" and "Aye, sir."

While you like to pretend that this is a pure Mayweather thingy it isn't. I'd call it pilot's curse, Sulu and Travis often say "yes, sir" and "aye, sir" because they are at the helm. Here are all the lines from two random episodes:

The Galileo Seven

SULU: Scanners are blank, Captain. We're getting a mass of readings I've never seen. Nothing makes sense.
SULU: Yes, sir.
SULU: Aye, aye, sir.
SULU: Yes, Captain?
SULU: Totally inoperative, sir. No readings at all.
SULU: Yes, sir. No change.
SULU: But Captain, two degrees means they'll be overlooking more than a dozen terrestrial miles on each search loop.
SULU: Yes, sir.
SULU: Captain, course set for Makus Three.
SULU: Space normal, sir?
SULU: Captain, there's something there on screen, at Taurus Two.
SULU: No. It's holding a lateral line. There it is again. Holding steady, Captain.
SULU: Whatever it was, Captain, it just burned up in the atmosphere.
SULU: Aye, aye, sir. Warp factor one.

Sleeping Dogs

TRAVIS: Siren calls. That's what we called them when I was a kid. My dad would put them through the speakers whenever we flew by a gas giant. It gave me nightmares sometimes.
TRAVIS: Aye, sir.
TRAVIS: Captain.
TRAVIS: Sir, they're heading into open space.
TRAVIS: Aye, sir.
TRAVIS: Yes, sir.
TRAVIS: Mayweather.
TRAVIS: Yes, sir.
TRAVIS: Sir, the alien ship sunk another two thousand metres. It's below the shuttle's safety limits.
TRAVIS: Ten thousand metres, but I'm having a hard time getting a fix on them. Too much interference.
TRAVIS: Sir, external pressure's at maximum.
TRAVIS: The hull plating's failing.
TRAVIS: I found these schematics in the Vulcan database. It's a Raptor Class scout vessel.
TRAVIS: Its hull's at least twice as thick as ours, reinforced with some kind of coherent molecular alloy.
TRAVIS: Our only other option is for T'Pol and Malcolm to fix a broken-down Klingon ship and fly it out themselves.
TRAVIS: Aye, sir.
TRAVIS: Sir, there are two ships approaching at high warp. I think they're Klingon.
TRAVIS: Sixteen minutes. We're being hailed. It's the Captain.
TRAVIS: Aye, Captain. It's the Raptor, sir. They're hailing us.
TRAVIS: They're moving off.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

Yeah, lot of character development there for Mayweather, all right.

 

[horatio83]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

Sulu and Mayweather did the identical thing in most episodes, sit at the helm and do their job which is anything but interesting character-wise. I cannot do more than literally point it out via their lines and as your denial continues I am getting out of this pointless debate with somebody who is obviously not a member of the reality-based community.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

Sulu and Mayweather did the identical thing in most episodes, sit at the helm and do their job which is anything but interesting character-wise. I cannot do more than literally point it out via their lines and as your denial continues I am getting out of this pointless debate with somebody who is obviously not a member of the reality-based community.

Get off it. You can call me names if you want or say I'm doing this or that, but my point still stands that Mayweather really wasn't much of a character, you even said so yourself, "There are a few character moments but they don't amount to even roughly sketching out this character ... which is less than Mayweather got."

At this point, you're just splitting hairs or just arguing to be arguing. Can't say I'm interested in that. Anyway, I've got a TV program coming on that is more interesting than this conversation, so I'll have to get back to you later...or not, if I don't feel like going in circles with you.

Buh-bye.

 

[I am not Spock]

Re: A New Star Trek Show Will Need a Stronger Focus on Characterizatio

DS9 used all its characters, but most of them were not particularly likeable. That's the main reason to avoid that model.

Breaking Bad is filled with unlikable characters and it was still a success. Unlikable characters can be fine, as long as they're interesting.

Unlikeable characters are practically mandatory on cable/streaming now, and since there's no chance a Trek series would be made solely for broadcast (assuming broadcast even survives long enough), then the next series is most likely going to follow suit in that regards.

None of the Trek series will be used as a model. They are too far in the rear-view mirror. The TV business has moved on and the new successful genre series - Game of Thrones and The Walking Dead - are more likely to be models because they are the closest you can get nowadays to sic fi/cult audience stuff, and they are successful right now, not ten or twenty or fifty years ago.

So there will be more sex, lots more violence and gore, political machinations, backstabbing characters, adult themes, etc. More serialization and more attention to characterization than even DS9. No more Ferengi comedies and romances of the week. Sounds good to me.

Of course an animated series for kids would follow entirely different rules. in that case, it would be like The Clone Wars.

Predicting the form that the next series will take is easy. TV is nothing if not predictable. First, find out where it's going to be shown. Then look around for successful current examples of shows that are some kind of sci fi or close to it. That's what it will be like.

I find shows like Game of Thrones, and most HBO dramas, highly gratuitous, personally. It's like they're trying too hard to be edgy and 'adult' , with all the naughty bits, and swear words. Much like Torchwood.