6x04 The Doctor's Wife(Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!!)

[Checkmate]

The TARDIS' Soul: There's been multiple hints and suggestions that the TARDIS had a mind of its own, both in the revival of the series and the older ones. The only thing 'silly' was the ease in which House was able to separate it from the machine itself. If all it takes is an empty vessel, there shouldn't be any trouble repeating it through Time Lord technology. But I'm okay with that.

Not Knowing About the Dead Time Lords: Do you know when every human being goes missing or dies? You sure don't. Now imagine if many of those same human beings can be at any point in the universe (or other universes), at any point in time. Would you know when they were dead? Or even missing? Every. Single. One?

Locking Amy & Rory: He did that because he knew this place was dangerous -- dangerous enough that several Time Lords met their fate here. Considering that he firmly believed the TARDIS to be the safest place in all existence, why not lock them away until he could figure out what was going on? It was a sign of how much he cared about them.

Running: House told them to run. And they did, because they were afraid of what he would do to them if they didn't, which was only driven home later when he displayed the ease in which he could kill them.

Caring About Life: Congratulations, you've picked up on a new aspect of the Doctor's personality that's slowly been building up for a while now. He's no longer afraid to kill if he needs to, especially in retribution for harming him or those he cares for (including the entire Human race). Where exactly this personality trait came from, I don't know. But I've noticed it since at least the end days of the 10th Doctor when he was going all "I'M A GOD!" crazy.

 

[Checkmate]

The TARDIS' Soul: There's been multiple hints and suggestions that the TARDIS had a mind of its own, both in the revival of the series and the older ones. The only thing 'silly' was the ease in which House was able to separate it from the machine itself. If all it takes is an empty vessel, there shouldn't be any trouble repeating it through Time Lord technology. But I'm okay with that.

Not Knowing About the Dead Time Lords: Do you know when every human being goes missing or dies? You sure don't. Now imagine if many of those same human beings can be at any point in the universe (or other universes), at any point in time. Would you know when they were dead? Or even missing? Every. Single. One?

Locking Amy & Rory: He did that because he knew this place was dangerous -- dangerous enough that several Time Lords met their fate here. Considering that he firmly believed the TARDIS to be the safest place in all existence, why not lock them away until he could figure out what was going on? It was a sign of how much he cared about them.

Running: House told them to run. And they did, because they were afraid of what he would do to them if they didn't, which was only driven home later when he displayed the ease in which he could kill them.

Caring About Life: Congratulations, you've picked up on a new aspect of the Doctor's personality that's slowly been building up for a while now. He's no longer afraid to kill if he needs to, especially in retribution for harming him or those he cares for (including the entire Human race). Where exactly this personality trait came from, I don't know. But I've noticed it since at least the end days of the 10th Doctor when he was going all "I'M A GOD!" crazy.

 

[Sindatur]

I read the first four pages of this thread (no time to go through all 26! of them before posting my own thoughts) and the opinion seems to be (mostly) extremely positive.

Perhaps it's because I'm new to the Whoniverse ---I only started watching the show on a regular basis last year--- and so didn't get all the references to earlier series and doctors, but to me this seemed a pretty average episode (I rated it "good" in the poll). For one, there were so many things that (at least from my point of view) didn't make much sense. The whole soul of the Tardis thing was a bit silly, but I'm willing to accept that as the gimmick of the week, which enables us to have a look at the Doctor-Tardis relationship. Fine, I can go with that, but then on top of that there was so much more:

-Out of the universe? Huh, what? Why was that necessary? They can just travel out of the universe?! Okay, they had to delete some rooms, but still, seems a small price to pay for something as supposedly huge as that, whatever it even means.

-So the Doctor killed all the time lords, but then House (that was its name, right?) also killed a bunch of them? So didn't the time lords notice that many of them were being killed off before the Doctor finished the job? For example, this Corsair person, the Doctor seemed to know him personally. So he would have known that he was not among the ones he killed, right? So why was he surprised when he found out that he might still be alive?

-Why did the Doctor lock Amy and Rory in the Tardis? Because he got emotional? What kind of reason is that? Or might it have been a cheap dramatic trick?

-What was the running around through the Tardis all about? Amy and Rory were behaving as if they were running from and/or to something, but they were just trying to entertain House to stay alive, right? (Up until the moment the message of the Tardis came of course.) All in all this seemed fairly pointless (except of course to show off what were apparently old sets).

-So Auntie, Uncle and Nephew were just entertainment for House as well? Or did they serve another purpose as well? I guess House couldn't mind control the time lords he captured, or he would've used them to lure new time lords in, instead of replacing body parts in his old subjects. It's not like he cared about them, he let them die the minute he was done with the planet.

-Speaking of mind control, the whole messing with Amy's head bit, came across as nothing but some gratuitous horror. Did anyone think Rory actually died (again!)? Could he only mess with her mind, or even control it like Auntie's, Uncle's, and Nephew's? Why not use this when they were in the control room?

-From reading this forum over the past weeks I got the impression that the Doctor was supposed to care about all life (people were understandably upset when he had humans hunt down and kill the Silent; people were understandably upset when he let a killer pirate loose on the universe), but in this episode he doesn't seem to care much about killing the Ood or House. Plus, he killed all (?!) the time lords (but that, as I understand, was already a plot point earlier in the series?).

Btw, is it just me, or is some of the dialogue very hard to catch each week?


In conclusion, the episode was entertaining enough to watch, but scratching the surface only little and the story lost all its coherence. I get that all that was just a way to get the Doctor to interact with the Tardis on a more personal level, but when your dramatic tricks are so obvious and don't stand up to much scrutiny at all, then I can't rave about this episode like some others here have. Especially since I don't have the "ooh, look, old Doctor stuff" factor.

First, regarding the Doctor killing all the Time Lords, it wasn't hand to hand combat or anything, he time locked everyone involved in the War in some manner with a WMD, he had no way of knowing who all got caught up in it, so, no way for him to know who was killed (or Time Locked, as it's now mostly being referred to rather, than actually killing them)

As far as the Corsair, again, no way of knowing if he was still off partying in the Universe at large, or if he might have returned hom eot Gallifrey to assist in the Time War.

House, seemed to feed off not only the essence of Time Lords and TARDISes, but, apparently off fear as well. Entertaining him was the only way to for Rory and Amy to keep themselves alive long enough for the Doctor to rescue them. They weren't going anywhere in particular, just keeping him entertained so they ahd a chance of living long enough for the Doctor to rescue them.

House and Nephew were a threat to the Doctor, the Tardis and his Companions, so, if they put themselves in a position where they would be killed when defeated, that's not of the Doctor's doing, so, no reason to feel guilt, reasoning with House did no good.

As far as the guilt over annihilating his own race, that was dealt with over the first 4 Series of the show's return, it was a journey of growth out of that guilt. By the time David Tennant regenerated into the Current actor playing the Doctor, that guilt had finally been dealt with

 

[Plain Simple]

The TARDIS' Soul: There's been multiple hints and suggestions that the TARDIS had a mind of its own, both in the revival of the series and the older ones. The only thing 'silly' was the ease in which House was able to separate it from the machine itself. If all it takes is an empty vessel, there shouldn't be any trouble repeating it through Time Lord technology. But I'm okay with that.

Like I said, I'm willing to accept that point, but the way it was played came across as fairly silly.

Not Knowing About the Dead Time Lords: Do you know when every human being goes missing or dies? You sure don't. Now imagine if many of those same human beings can be at any point in the universe (or other universes), at any point in time. Would you know when they were dead? Or even missing? Every. Single. One?

I'm not claiming that. The Doctor is the one who goes around claiming that there are no more time lords in the universe. He surely must have a good reason for that, no? He is not just saying some or most of them are dead, he specifically states on multiple occasions that there are none left. Is he just making this up then, or does he have other reasons to assume or pretend they are all dead?

Locking Amy & Rory: He did that because he knew this place was dangerous -- dangerous enough that several Time Lords met their fate here. Considering that he firmly believed the TARDIS to be the safest place in all existence, why not lock them away until he could figure out what was going on? It was a sign of how much he cared about them.

So Rory and Amy are responsible enough to take on a wild ride through space and time, but not responsible enough that they would understand if the Doctor tells them to stay put for the time being, until we know more of what's going on?

Caring About Life: Congratulations, you've picked up on a new aspect of the Doctor's personality that's slowly been building up for a while now. He's no longer afraid to kill if he needs to, especially in retribution for harming him or those he cares for (including the entire Human race). Where exactly this personality trait came from, I don't know. But I've noticed it since at least the end days of the 10th Doctor when he was going all "I'M A GOD!" crazy.

Cool, I'm picking up on stuff.

First, regarding the Doctor killing all the Time Lords, it wasn't hand to hand combat or anything, he time locked everyone involved in the War in some manner with a WMD, he had no way of knowing who all got caught up in it, so, no way for him to know who was killed (or Time Locked, as it's now mostly being referred to rather, than actually killing them)

But to me it sounds as if he is convinced there are no time lords left in the universe. Why would he be so convinced of that if there could still be many roaming time and space, because they weren't home when he time locked the rest of 'em?

House, seemed to feed off not only the essence of Time Lords and TARDISes, but, apparently off fear as well. Entertaining him was the only way to for Rory and Amy to keep themselves alive long enough for the Doctor to rescue them. They weren't going anywhere in particular, just keeping him entertained so they ahd a chance of living long enough for the Doctor to rescue them.

They didn't know the Doctor was coming. As far as they knew he was stuck on a planet outside the universe! with a bunch of creepy crazy people and without a Tardis. The only reason to suspect rescue was imminent was if they knew they were in an episode of a tv show about to end in fifteen minutes.

As far as the guilt over annihilating his own race, that was dealt with over the first 4 Series of the show's return, it was a journey of growth out of that guilt. By the time David Tennant regenerated into the Current actor playing the Doctor, that guilt had finally been dealt with

I'm sure it did, I was just wondering where this idea of a Doctor who abhors loss of life came from, because I didn't really see it.

 

[Guartho]

and we got a redressing of the old coral console room standing in as the old secondary console room!

I don't think that was supposed to be the secondary console room. I think it was supposed to be the old coral console room getting used as a secondary console room in an emergency.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

...So Rory and Amy are responsible enough to take on a wild ride through space and time, but not responsible enough that they would understand if the Doctor tells them to stay put for the time being, until we know more of what's going on?....

We would need to take a seat in a comfy chair with a big box of popcorn in order to sit through a compilation of all the clips through the decades showing all the times that the Doctor told a companion to "Stay in the Tardis!", only to have them ignore his instructions and wander off only to get into trouble! I guess Doctor #11 had enough and tried locking them in to see how that worked!

 

[Checkmate]

Like I said, I'm willing to accept that point, but the way it was played came across as fairly silly.

Again, it was the ease of how it was executed that was silly, not the actual act. But handwavium is par of the course for this show. Always has been. You just have to accept that House was basically a godling.

I'm not claiming that. The Doctor is the one who goes around claiming that there are no more time lords in the universe. He surely must have a good reason for that, no? He is not just saying some or most of them are dead, he specifically states on multiple occasions that there are none left. Is he just making this up then, or does he have other reasons to assume or pretend they are all dead?

As far as he knows, they're all dead/locked in time. He's been wrong once before. He's not afraid to admit to himself, if no one else, that he may be wrong about others. Hence him being so excited at the prospect of having found the Corsair.

So Rory and Amy are responsible enough to take on a wild ride through space and time, but not responsible enough that they would understand if the Doctor tells them to stay put for the time being, until we know more of what's going on?

Have you not been watching the show? That's exactly it. Well, Rory would stay put but Amy certainly wouldn't.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

Like I said, I'm willing to accept that point, but the way it was played came across as fairly silly.

This is what I loved mostly in this episode: It took the most silly things you can find and make them important and amazing. There was a constant contrast of silly and momentous in almost every scene of the episode.

The silliness of realizing every sixteen year old scifi fan wet dream contrasted with the grave importance of Mrs. TARDIS, not only in this episode, but the entire franchise, and this silliness was used to give new meaning to half of the stories I could remember.

It wouldn't be good if it wasn't silly. To get perspective: The makeshift TARDIS that saved the day had a clothes hanger and skipping rope as part of its controls. You can't get much sillier than that, that's why it was brilliant.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Nearly as cool as the original idea of Kate Winslet playing River...

Was that ever a serious consideration or just wishful thinking on the part of fans?

It was serious. Davies tells Benjamin Cook in The Writer's Tale that he was talking to Winslet's people about "Silence in the Library." And that he wanted Michael Gambon for the role Colin Salmon ultimately played.

In a way, we're better off that RTD ultimately didn't cast Winslet, as I have great difficulty imagining Winslet reappearing on a semi-regular basis in seasons five and six. On the other hand, I think Winslet would have been utterly smashing as River Song.

Wow, I didn't know Gambon was also considered for that two-parter. Perhaps now that he has appeared on the show, there's some hope that Winslett might still appear in another role? But then, I'm still hoping Rachel Weisz will show up at some point since she's also a fan.

House and Nephew were a threat to the Doctor, the Tardis and his Companions, so, if they put themselves in a position where they would be killed when defeated, that's not of the Doctor's doing, so, no reason to feel guilt, reasoning with House did no good.

Actually, The Doctor did express regret over Nephew: (verbatim) "Another Ood I wasn't able to save."

and we got a redressing of the old coral console room standing in as the old secondary console room!

I don't think that was supposed to be the secondary console room. I think it was supposed to be the old coral console room getting used as a secondary console room in an emergency.

Quite right. I missed Idris' line about saving old console rooms the first time I watched the episode. When I posted that, I was more thinking of the coral room as a cursory secondary console room.

 

[PorthosShadow]

Caring About Life: Congratulations, you've picked up on a new aspect of the Doctor's personality that's slowly been building up for a while now. He's no longer afraid to kill if he needs to, especially in retribution for harming him or those he cares for (including the entire Human race). Where exactly this personality trait came from, I don't know. But I've noticed it since at least the end days of the 10th Doctor when he was going all "I'M A GOD!" crazy.

This is a feeling I've had about Matt Smith's Doctor since "The 11th Hour" and there is nothing specific I can point to. But his Doctor feels far more dangerous than the previous ten.

 

[irononreverse]

It does seem like he's gone beyond caring about what happens to other races.

The 10th doctor definitely seemed more human in the last few episodes. Perhaps the increased emotions during regeneration have messed him up a little?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Caring About Life: Congratulations, you've picked up on a new aspect of the Doctor's personality that's slowly been building up for a while now. He's no longer afraid to kill if he needs to, especially in retribution for harming him or those he cares for (including the entire Human race). Where exactly this personality trait came from, I don't know. But I've noticed it since at least the end days of the 10th Doctor when he was going all "I'M A GOD!" crazy.

This is a feeling I've had about Matt Smith's Doctor since "The 11th Hour" and there is nothing specific I can point to. But his Doctor feels far more dangerous than the previous ten.

What about Family of Blood? Tenant wasn't exactly harmless either.

 

[hammerhead]

Article up with the writer about the episode

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/05/17/neil-gaiman-talks-doctor-who-or-types-it-you-know-what-i-mean/

 

[Allyn Gibson]

This is a feeling I've had about Matt Smith's Doctor since "The 11th Hour" and there is nothing specific I can point to. But his Doctor feels far more dangerous than the previous ten.

Hartnell's Doctor was a right bastard; right in "An Unearthly Child" he wants to kill one of Tribe of Gum by smashing his head with a rock.

In "Evil of the Daleks," Troughton's Doctor did to the Daleks what Smith's Doctor did to the Silents -- turn their own plan against them.

The Doctor's pacifism really only settles in with Pertwee, and I think it's because Pertwee represented an alternative to the military viewpoint of the Brig.

McCoy's Doctor was a manipulative bastard, but he liked to keep his hands clean of his dirty work.

Smith seems to hearken back to Hartnell and Troughton.

 

[Kira's Mom]

Was too busy packing to comment earlier, but I really enjoyed this episode. I'm not even a huge Gaiman fan. I loved the whole idea of the "soul of the Tardis" existing in a human body.

"You call me Sexy." "But only when we're alone!"

 

[Plain Simple]

Have you not been watching the show? That's exactly it. Well, Rory would stay put but Amy certainly wouldn't.

I did consider that, but very often it is a result of lazy writing (or a lack of trust of the characters). Like you said, Rory would definitely wait and as for Amy, by now she and the Doctor should trust each other enough that the Doctor could take two minutes of his time to explain to Amy why he thinks it is too dangerous for her and that she should wait in the Tardis for at least a little while ("and if I'm not back in ten minutes something is seriously wrong" or some such). Anyways, that by itself is a minor point. I just felt there were a lot of those minor points that kept yanking me out of the story.

 

[Sci]

First, regarding the Doctor killing all the Time Lords, it wasn't hand to hand combat or anything, he time locked everyone involved in the War in some manner with a WMD, he had no way of knowing who all got caught up in it, so, no way for him to know who was killed (or Time Locked, as it's now mostly being referred to rather, than actually killing them)

Er, no. We don't know who Time Locked the war, but we do know that the Doctor used a weapon called the moment to kill the Time Lords and the Daleks. They all burned to death. That's been explicitly established multiple times, most recently in "The End of Time, Part Two." The Time Lock is just a thing that kept the Time Lords from time traveling away before burning.

 

[tomalak301]

Neil Gaiman is writing this episode and everyone seems to be looking forward to it. Wasn't this the same guy who wrote one of the more controversial episodes of Babylon 5, Day of the Dead. Perhaps I'm just not as excited as others (And I'm not really all that familiar with him to have much of an impact) but I hope the episode is better than last week. Looking forward to it mainly because it's Doctor Who.

Wait..."Day of the Dead" is considered controversial? How so? Granted it's been years since I've seen it, but it was one of my favorite non-arc episodes.

I thought it was based on a podcast I listen to that talked a lot about it on many episodes. That's the vibe I got but perhaps it was wrong.

As for this episode, I liked it, but who was the Jester and wife again? It just didn't seem like they added much to the story. As for that story, I liked it and exploring the various parts of the Tardis. I do feel like the Tardis needs to be more of a character than it actually is and I'm glad we got this Tardis episode. Much better than the one about the pirates.

 

[Checkmate]

They all burned to death. That's been explicitly established multiple times, most recently in "The End of Time, Part Two." The Time Lock is just a thing that kept the Time Lords from time traveling away before burning.

You mean the same episode where we saw inside the time lock, where many of the Time Lords were fine and dandy, just incredibly annoyed, and who very nearly broke free from said time lock because they were instead stuck in a moment of a time rather than dead?

That episode?

Where, you know, they were clearly alive?

Even though they were supposed to be dead?

But weren't.

Because, you know, they weren't.

Since, you know, they very nearly escaped and even interacted with the Doctor and the Master.

That one?

Is that the episode you're referring to, using it to claim just how dead the Time Lords are?

Really?

 

[Pauln6]

Well, in Sci's defence, the Doctor still claims that he destroyed all the Time Lords when he knows that he didn't. Admittedly, he is renowned for his ability to grandstand and bluff but it's easy to see why some people might be confused by it all. I still don't understand why we must take it as read that every Time Lord was there at the destruction when some, such as the Time Meddling Monk and Susan were stuck elsewhere with no means of transport. Presumably they were plucked out of the Time Stream and returned to Gallifrey but it's all a bit wibbly wobbly timey wimey.