24 Doctors! Oh My! (Spoilers)

[Alidar Jarok]

Shouldn't it be 25? Capaldi is number 13, so 12 more after that makes 25.

I think the assumption is that the first of those 12 was expended regenerating Smith into Capaldi. He's not starting from birth as on his first cycle, so the new cycle is one life shorter.

Unless the new cycle begins with a "reset" and has 12 more lives after it. That hasn't been made clear yet.

It hasn't been made clear, but I didn't hear anything to suggest that it's true. The only thing I can think of is the swansong to Matt Smith, but that had to do with the new lives taking longer than normal to kick in, according to the dialog, not with going from life 1 to life 2.

 

[Sindatur]

Shouldn't it be 25? Capaldi is number 13, so 12 more after that makes 25.

I think the assumption is that the first of those 12 was expended regenerating Smith into Capaldi. He's not starting from birth as on his first cycle, so the new cycle is one life shorter.

Unless the new cycle begins with a "reset" and has 12 more lives after it. That hasn't been made clear yet.

It hasn't been made clear, but I didn't hear anything to suggest that it's true. The only thing I can think of is the swansong to Matt Smith, but that had to do with the new lives taking longer than normal to kick in, according to the dialog, not with going from life 1 to life 2.

I kinda interpretted it as the Nerdgasm explosion, was the infusion of a new Cycle, "burning off and settling" and resetting Matt Smith to younger, then the quick snap from Matt Smith to Cpaldi was regeneration #1 of his new cycle of 12 Regenerations.

 

[Christopher]

But isn't the "real" Doctor also supposed to be half-human (as per the TV-Movie)?

That was alleged in the movie, but everything since has ignored it. Indeed, "Journey's End" seems to have been written specifically to refute it, because it repeatedly establishes the idea of a half-human Doctor (the Metacrisis clone) as something new and different.

It's worth remembering that in the movie, it's unclear whether the Doctor is serious when he says he's half-human. He's about to tell Grace something in the strictest confidence, something very secret, and then a stranger butts in and asks about their conversation, and the Doctor tells him "I'm half-human on my mother's side." So it doesn't seem that can be the real secret. The Master also came to believe the Doctor was half-human due to his retinal structure, but there could've been something else going on there.

Unless the new cycle begins with a "reset" and has 12 more lives after it. That hasn't been made clear yet.

It hasn't been made clear, but I didn't hear anything to suggest that it's true. The only thing I can think of is the swansong to Matt Smith, but that had to do with the new lives taking longer than normal to kick in, according to the dialog, not with going from life 1 to life 2.

No, that's not at all what I'm saying. Think about it. The Doctor had one birth followed by twelve regenerations, hence thirteen distinct lives. But if you add a new cycle of regenerations, then there's no "second birth" added along with it, because the Doctor's already a grown man. A regeneration cycle is twelve regenerations, and the initial birth is an extra. Or rather, the first life is what a Time Lord gets before the regeneration cycle engages at all, and the 12 regenerations are the extras. So if he gets a new regeneration cycle, it wouldn't be 13 + 13; it would be 1 + 12 + 12. And the first of those 12 regenerations would have to be used up turning Smith into Capaldi, just as the first of his previous regenerations turned Hartnell into Troughton. And that would leave only 11 Doctors after Capaldi, at least until the cycle is reset again. So no, I am absolutely not saying that one regeneration was used up to turn Smith young again and then a second was used to turn him into Capaldi. I'm saying that turning him into Capaldi expended the first of the 12 new regens, leaving only 11 (until the next reset, of course).

The alternative is that the "reset" somehow gave him a totally fresh start that was akin to a second birth, another "starter" life in addition to the 12 do-overs. But that's harder to justify, and I don't think it was the intent.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Resetting to young Matt could be the same as Tennant healing from the radiation before regenerating (much later).

It doesn't have to mean a regeneration was used for that.

We can hope that there's some reference to all this while Capaldi is having mad post-regeneration fits.

I'd like to think he's #1 of the new 13.

 

[Christopher]

Resetting to young Matt could be the same as Tennant healing from the radiation before regenerating (much later).

Yes, I think that's clearly the case. He did not regenerate twice. Rejuvenation of the same body is not regeneration. His current incarnation was briefly rejuvenated as his metabolism readied itself for the new regeneration (and of course this was really just an excuse to give Smith a suitable farewell scene without being buried under makeup -- wig notwithstanding). Then the first new regeneration kicked in and turned him into Capaldi.

I'd like to think he's #1 of the new 13.

Like I said, logically it would be #1 of the new 12 (the First Doctor was born, not regenerated, so it's 1 original life + 12 regenerations + 12 regenerations).

Although of course it doesn't really matter; however many lives he's been given, once they run out he'll just be given a new cycle. So the actual number is arbitrary.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

^ Exactly. We'll start worrying about it in 40-45 years, hopefully not sooner.

 

[Tom]

Yup, as it stands now Capaldi is doctor 13 of 24

 

[Rincewiend]

The alternative is that the "reset" somehow gave him a totally fresh start that was akin to a second birth, another "starter" life in addition to the 12 do-overs. But that's harder to justify, and I don't think it was the intent.

Or that a new/extra regeneration cycle is 13, not 12 regenerations...
But that's all specualtion right now and the writers can change it on a whim, so...
*shrugs*

 

[Set Harth]

Maybe the Valeyard is post-Capaldi?

 

[Timby]

Mucking about with the regeneration limit is the best gift Moffat could have granted the fanbase for a combined birthday-Christmas present: Something to argue about, forever.

I'm more amused by what was going through the Time Lord General's head while trying to decide to give the Doctor a new set of regenerations.

"You ... you do know this means we might have to deal with 26 of him later on."

"I know. Oh God. I know."

Or after Clara's plea, they took a look at everything the Doctor had done with his life.

"He wasted one of his regenerations on what?"

"Well, if the reports are accurate ... the best we can make out is a 'Hand Job.'"

"I truly loathe this man."

 

[Tom]

I think the Valeyard 'started' with Smith's doctor. I believe the Dream Lord was the Valeyard starting taking shape in the Doctor's mind. This entity is developing in the Doctors mind will at one point find a way to escape into a body of his own (not to unlike the Master taking over Tremas). He will then seek a way to have a Timelord life cycle, first attempting to the put the 6th Doctor on trial. The Doctor is always trying to be good so his negative darker side have had hundreds of years to fester in his mind and has now taking a sentience of his own. I believe we will someday see this entity break away from the doctors mind, then the fun begins.

 

[Christopher]

^Then the Master would have to have been wrong about the "between the twelfth and final incarnations" thing. In the original history, Smith was the final Doctor, technically the thirteenth incarnation, and died at Trenzalore.

 

[Australis]

So, we could have Doctor Who around for another 50 years. I don't think I'll live that long. And that's interesting.

 

[Tom]

^Then the Master would have to have been wrong about the "between the twelfth and final incarnations" thing. In the original history, Smith was the final Doctor, technically the thirteenth incarnation, and died at Trenzalore.

Well the Valeyard could have been 'born' with Tennant's selfishness about not wanting to regenerate then later start to grow with the Dream Lord etc..

 

[Pavonis]

I think the Valeyard has (or had) as much reality as the Watcher did. He existed in-between regenerations, now he doesn't exist.

 

[Tom]

Of course now the "between the twelfth and final incarnations" can be anywhere between Tennant and the 24th Doctor. LOL

 

[MacLeod]

^Then the Master would have to have been wrong about the "between the twelfth and final incarnations" thing. In the original history, Smith was the final Doctor, technically the thirteenth incarnation, and died at Trenzalore.

Oviously it wasn't the intent when "The Trail of a Time Lord" was written, but the line is as you say


"between the twelfth and final incarnations"

No doubt when they wrote it they meant between the 12th and 13th. But the line as written is abiguous enough to have a new inteperration, after all it says final incarnation. It doesn't say twelth and thirteenth incarnation.

 

[Skellington]

But isn't the "real" Doctor also supposed to be half-human (as per the TV-Movie)?

That was alleged in the movie, but everything since has ignored it. Indeed, "Journey's End" seems to have been written specifically to refute it, because it repeatedly establishes the idea of a half-human Doctor (the Metacrisis clone) as something new and different.

It's worth remembering that in the movie, it's unclear whether the Doctor is serious when he says he's half-human. He's about to tell Grace something in the strictest confidence, something very secret, and then a stranger butts in and asks about their conversation, and the Doctor tells him "I'm half-human on my mother's side." So it doesn't seem that can be the real secret. The Master also came to believe the Doctor was half-human due to his retinal structure, but there could've been something else going on there.

It's not too difficult to explain away the half-human thing. It could be a side-effect of the regeneration (which the same movie tells us can change his species, if memory serves). And Tennant's Doctor (or McCoy's, in the original version of Human Nature) was fully human for a while.

Yup, as it stands now Capaldi is doctor 13 of 24

Yep - or 12 of 23, or 14 of 25. Either way, all appearances are that he's used the first of twelve potential (non-fatal) regenerations.

^Then the Master would have to have been wrong about the "between the twelfth and final incarnations" thing. In the original history, Smith was the final Doctor, technically the thirteenth incarnation, and died at Trenzalore.

Moffat may have made a few boo-boos with Trenzalore. (Capaldi appears in The Day Of The Doctor, but so does a reference to Trenzalore as the Doctor's final resting place. And in The Name Of The Doctor the Great Intelligence seemed to think that the Doctor would at some point in his future be known as the Valeyard, not to mention the Beast. So the pre-Capaldi timeline, with the GI going to Trenzalore and the Doctor eventually dying there, should include the Valeyard in some way - be it as a byproduct of a thirteenth and fatal regeneration, or just another name for Eleven during that centuries-long siege. In real life, though, Moffat seems to have added the reference as a throwaway line with little or no forethought.)

 

[DWF]

^Then the Master would have to have been wrong about the "between the twelfth and final incarnations" thing. In the original history, Smith was the final Doctor, technically the thirteenth incarnation, and died at Trenzalore.

Oviously it wasn't the intent when "The Trail of a Time Lord" was written, but the line is as you say


"between the twelfth and final incarnations"

No doubt when they wrote it they meant between the 12th and 13th. But the line as written is abiguous enough to have a new inteperration, after all it says final incarnation. It doesn't say twelth and thirteenth incarnation.

The origin of that line is a bit un known but the way Robert Holmes wrote the finale was that it was meant to be the end, the Pip and Jane Baker rewrite was meant to leave the hsow open. Still it was doubtful that the show would ever get to that point and must be viewed in context of when it was written.

 

[MikeS]

And of course it's a given that once the 24th Doctor leaves the show, they'll find a way to give him another new cycle. The regeneration limit has never been an actual, real-world limit on how long the show could last. I's just something they made up to serve the story, and they can effortlessly handwave it away to keep the series going, as we saw on Christmas evening. We didn't even get an explanation for how the Time Lords gave him a new cycle; he just inhaled some pixie dust and that was it. So there can be as many Doctors as the show needs there to be.

Mucking about with the regeneration limit is the best gift Moffat could have granted the fanbase for a combined birthday-Christmas present: Something to argue about, forever.

Did anybody else get the feeling that the exchange between The Doctor and the Daleks at the end were written with boards like this in mind? I can even imagine the Daleks line to have been writen on here and the Doctors come-back to have been said by Moffat.

Daleks (or interwebz?) "The rules of regeneration are known, *you* have expended all your lives."

Doctor (or Moffat?) "Sorry. What did you say? Did you mention "the rules"? Now listen, bit of advice - tell me the truth if you know it, lay down the law if you're feeling brave but *Daleks*, never ever tell me the rules"