1960's and risqué clothes?

[Christopher]

So are there some of us thinking that there is not the slight possibility the ol' Gene R. Was using the "Women's lib" stuff for his (and male viewers, for the most part) for personal gratification?

Oh, absolutely. That's clear enough in the first feature film he scripted and produced, Roger Vadim's Pretty Maids All in a Row. It's a dark sex comedy supposedly about the Sexual Revolution, but its makers presumed that women's sexual liberation meant that sexy teenage girls were now ready and willing to indulge any man's desires at a moment's notice.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Oh, absolutely. That's clear enough in the first feature film he scripted and produced, Roger Vadim's Pretty Maids All in a Row. It's a dark sex comedy supposedly about the Sexual Revolution, but its makers presumed that women's sexual liberation meant that sexy teenage girls were now ready and willing to indulge any man's desires at a moment's notice.

It did mean that.

 

[Poltargyst]

Okay, I'm glad I didn't walk in with my electric toothbrush going and see that one on the bottom( no pun intended).
Just sayin'
So are there some of us thinking that there is not the slight possibility the ol' Gene R. Was using the
"Women's lib" stuff for his (and male viewers, for the most part) for personal gratification?

Keep in mind that in that scene Helen Noel is in the process of kicking that guy's ass and saving the day.

 

[cooleddie74]

1966 was a helluva drug.

 

[Maurice]

"Wink of an Eye" was very risque for the time in showing Kirk putting his boots back on after being alone with Deela for some time. (Well, only a split second objectively, but...) And "The Mark of Gideon" talked openly about contraception, a very daring thing for its day.

Maybe for action adventure shows (even then, I Spy hit drug addiction head on without disguising it before Trek even hit the air, fer instance), but certainly not daring to anyone who'd watched The Defenders from 1962–65. Trek was waaaay behind that show in being bold about just about anything.

 

[T'Bonz]

Some panties are briefs, but that does not mean all briefs are panties. Some kinds of briefs are meant to be worn as an outer layer, like brief-cut swim trunks.

Nomenclatural nitpicking aside, the point is that TOS female uniforms, like tennis dresses, were designed with a briefs- or shorts-like layer under the skirt that would cover the underwear beneath so that modesty was maintained. That is not the same as the actual underwear it concealed.

OK Christopher. I know it's been a few days. I went back and forth for a few days about this and finally decided that I was going to take it up. Why? I realized tonight that as a woman, something that rarely happens to me these days happened. A man, who knows jack shit about being a woman, MANSPLAINED something to me, that I DO know something about.

I know it's a little thing, and I shouldn't be angry, but damn it, I am. So I'm responding. So next time you say something about a woman thing and a woman disagrees with you, how about thinking before you open your big mouth, OK? I've worn brief panties. YOU haven't. I know what I'm talking about. YOU don't.

I had enough of males doing that kind of thing in the 1960s and early 1970s to me to last me my entire life and I will not take it any more ever again. Even if it's over stupid shit. The rest of you readers might want to hop over this.

You said "Briefs built in. Briefs are not panties." The bolding emphasis is mine.

You're wrong. W. R. O. N. G.

Read that again, Christopher. W. R. O. N. G.

OK, so I answered reasonably at the time, because you're usually logical and rational and I figured you wouldn't mind being corrected. God knows when I'm wrong I'd want to be corrected. Boy was I wrong about that.

I said "Briefs are panties - as are thongs, bikinis, hipsters, etc." I also said some other stuff meant to be humorous which doesn't matter.

So you come back with "Some panties are briefs, but that does not mean all briefs are panties."

Did I SAY all briefs are panties? No. Your statement appeared to be designed to deflect attention away from YOUR mistake and make me look like I was wrong. Nice try.

Then you went on to change the subject from the brief/panty bit. "Some kinds of briefs are meant to be worn as an outer layer, like brief-cut swim trunks."

I wasn't talking about male (I'm assuming male) swimming trunks, but I was correcting the erroneous brief/panty statement.

Then this beauty: "Nomenclatural nitpicking aside, the point is that TOS female uniforms, like tennis dresses, were designed with a briefs- or shorts-like layer under the skirt that would cover the underwear beneath so that modesty was maintained. That is not the same as the actual underwear it concealed."

You were the one questioning my nomenclature, in effect saying that briefs weren't panties and when I correct you, I'm picky?

Nice. Mansplaining AND insulting me in the process. Thanks a lot. I expect better from you.

And speaking of picky, for your information, not all women wore panties underneath pantyhose and the matching outer layer briefs. That would be overkill - too many layers. Women's pantyhose usually have a cotton crotch because some women don't want to wear undies under pantyhose.

And just in case you never knew this (unrelated to the uniforms bit) - there are even a minority of women who wear panties over pantyhose instead of under. That was odd to me, but it happened. So now you know.

I said I wouldn't post pictures in an earlier post but I lied. I can't debate for shit but I'm an ace researcher. I will post PROOF that briefs ARE panties (and note that I did NOT say anywhere EVER that ALL briefs are panties or even that all panties are briefs). You will note that there are three different brands (so that it's just not one case) and that in the third instance on the right, that brand specifically states both briefs AND panties.

I rest my case.

And I'm a bit less angry after posting this. I've not been this pissed off over a male saying some bullshit to me as a female since Gary Green said I couldn't play baseball with the boys when I was ten. I could have thumped his ass at that age and there was no logical reason to deny me the game, it was just plain old chauvinism and bad behavior. In all fairness though, Gary was ten-years-old.

 

[1001001]

 

[Gov Kodos]

It will be brief even if it seams a waist.

 

[BillJ]

About damn time!

 

[Nakita Akita]

As far as attached briefs, it's actually irrelevant. Attached or not, it's objectifying women and girls.

Most of the ice skating out fits I have seen are one big piece of outfit.
The feet to the neck. Sorry for all of you guys that thought you were getting a panty shot, it's only in your mind. And the material, think those heavy nylon stretch pants from the disco era the men wore, ( I have three older brothers) heavy nylon. Yep, if you fall on the ice, you don't want to have to finish your routine with blood running down your leg.
But,
I've wondered when women are going to stop, being objectified.
All women's sports, okay almost all, the women dress like the slut dance or worse from the USA Super Bowl game this past Sunday.
These women, it seems choose to objectify themselves.
I can not understand the why.
As I watch the TOS show, I see one of the 'extras', maybe she gets one line, I cannot imagine what she did to get that one line. It makes me sad.

I see women in sports today, it makes me sad. I remember quite a few years ago, some dumb woman after her team win the soccer championship, pulling off her jersey and running around. She was from the USA,
It was the stupidest thing I had seen in my life and was belittling to all female athletes everywhere.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I have learned that the world of clothing marketed to women is incomprehensible to me... especially it's numerous and often contradictory sizes, designations, labels, and even the way most stores lay out their clothing sections.
So I don't argue about it, I just buy what I am told to buy - and I take very specific pictures on my phone with me when I go to the store.

 

[Ovation]

some dumb woman after her team win the soccer championship, pulling off her jersey and running around. She was from the USA,

She was emulating male soccer players who frequently do the same thing, as a way of protesting double standards of decorum (similar to some women in Guelph, Ontario, IIRC, who went to court and successfully challenged the municipal bylaw against women walking in public with a nude torso when men were not similarly prohibited from doing so).

The effectiveness of either case might be debatable, but there was an underlying context to each that went beyond frivolous behaviour.

 

[Nakita Akita]

I have learned that the world of clothing marketed to women is incomprehensible to me... especially it's numerous and often contradictory sizes, designations, labels, and even the way most stores lay out their clothing sections.
So I don't argue about it, I just buy what I am told to buy - and I take very specific pictures on my phone with me when I go to the store.

I was walking into a store one day, trying to put my wallet in my pants pocket, and it suddenly occurred to me that it didn't fit, my car keys either!!
I went into the store and bought men's
pants!
Guess what? I can carry my wallet, phone, keys, and maybe a bottle of water and a snack. (Denizen Levi's) they are also long enough! A big problem for me with "women's" pants. I mostly wear "women's" tops though, although laughable or more like sadly, shirts like polo shirts, are only men's shirts made to smaller sizes. Yep, guess how you can't tell?
The neck is way too big. In general and proportionally, men have larger necks than women.
Most shoes are made for men also. Even stupid "sexy" ones with pointed toes and 11 inch heels.
And a lot of women's underwear, lasts like 2 months. Men's lasts 5 years.

 

[Nakita Akita]

She was emulating male soccer players who frequently do the same thing, as a way of protesting double standards of decorum (similar to some women in Guelph, Ontario, IIRC, who went to court and successfully challenged the municipal bylaw against women walking in public with a nude torso when men were not similarly prohibited from doing so).

The effectiveness of either case might be debatable, but there was an underlying context to each that went beyond frivolous behaviour.

Well, as the 1960's, we'll show The Establishment, we'll wear butt baring dresses with ,possibly, attached underwear, the men love it.
I am woman, look at my butt, boobs, etc, but hear me roar.
Really, it's almost impossible to do both.
Until the Earth is rid of all human makes, they are going to notice nudity above and beyond almost anything else.

 

[BK613]

All women's sports, okay almost all, the women dress like the slut dance or worse from the USA Super Bowl game this past Sunday.
These women, it seems choose to objectify themselves.
I can not understand the why.

It's possible that your perspective is too narrow:

Same goes for pro beach volleyball. Rules only require that a top be worn showing a player's name and number. That's why men wear shirts in sanctioned events. Women could do the same, but according to Corinne Calabro, the communications director for USA Volleyball, they don't want to.

Women don’t have to wear bikinis. The uniform guidelines from the Federation of International Volleyball, the governing body of all international competition, allow for many options, Calabro told USA TODAY in August.

“The athletes are allowed to wear long sleeves, they’re allowed to wear shorts, tank tops,” Calabro said. “But we’ve gotten a lot of athletes on record saying they prefer to wear a two-piece because there are less places for sand to hide. They don’t view it as swimwear or anything like a fashion statement. For them, that’s their uniform.”​

source: Skimpy difference: Women's athletic uniforms vs. men's

 

[Nakita Akita]

It's possible that your perspective is too narrow:

Same goes for pro beach volleyball. Rules only require that a top be worn showing a player's name and number. That's why men wear shirts in sanctioned events. Women could do the same, but according to Corinne Calabro, the communications director for USA Volleyball, they don't want to.

Women don’t have to wear bikinis. The uniform guidelines from the Federation of International Volleyball, the governing body of all international competition, allow for many options, Calabro told USA TODAY in August.

“The athletes are allowed to wear long sleeves, they’re allowed to wear shorts, tank tops,” Calabro said. “But we’ve gotten a lot of athletes on record saying they prefer to wear a two-piece because there are less places for sand to hide. They don’t view it as swimwear or anything like a fashion statement. For them, that’s their uniform.”​

source: Skimpy difference: Women's athletic uniforms vs. men's

Mmm, sand, who-da-thunk?
Last time I saw men's beach volleyball, I saw them in long shorts and tank tops.
Not string bikini bottoms and tiny, what, maybe cut off tank tops.
Maybe I watched the wrong channel.
Why does sand get attached to women and not men?
I think this is s question for scientists.

 

[Armus]

Mmm, sand, who-da-thunk?
Last time I saw men's beach volleyball, I saw them in long shorts and tank tops.
Not string bikini bottoms and tiny, what, maybe cut off tank tops.
Maybe I watched the wrong channel.
Why does sand get attached to women and not men?
I think this is s question for scientists.

I worked in a warehouse once with some guys who loved to watch women's volleyball. They said they watched in the hope that women would get sand in their bikinis and have to scratch it.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I had a lot to say about this, but really, I think it just boils down to "America needs to lighten up." We are the most prudish damned society. Europeans must be looking at this thread and laughing.

 

[Nakita Akita]

I had a lot to say about this, but really, I think it just boils down to "America needs to lighten up." We are the most prudish damned society. Europeans must be looking at this thread and laughing.

I understand that. From my perspective it's only women that are expected to wear uncomfortable, impractical, body baring, clothing, be it every day attaire or for sports.
If women playing a sport are worried or bothered by sand, why aren't the men?
It IS an odd thing the happen, don't you think?
It goes beyond being prude. If you are thinking that, you are missing all the points.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I don’t think I’m missing the points, I’m just focused more on the whole uproar over the Super Bowl halftime show. Every one of my Latino friends loved it. Every one of my female Latino friends were empowered by them. Yet most of the white American women who are commenting on The Facebook are throwing out words like “half-naked,” “objectified” and “offensive.” Maybe it’s a culture thing, because if you watch any Latino dancers – hell, any Spanish TV shows – sexuality plays a huge part. For men and woman. They reek of sexual and physical confidence. Salsa dancing is both erotic and entertaining.

Scantily clad women are accepted by society more readily than men, and I get that. Watch any news program. Female legs for days, men in suits. No argument. But I also feel undressed men make America nervous. Exposed women = sexually provocative. Exposed men = dirty (or maybe it’s homophobia judging by my brother-in-law’s reaction).

Gene Roddenberry tried to level the playing field in TNG by objectifying both men and women, but it seems people couldn’t handle men in a skant or barely dressed. That went by the wayside when Gene stepped down when his health failed. After that, it was cat suits for the women but two piece baggy uniforms for the men. You don’t like the mini’s on TOS? Blame Grace Lee Whitney, she asked for the legs and she got it. Roddenberry’s concept was baggy unisex uniforms. Although, I’m sure he would have gotten around to it…

I don’t watch sports. Other than religion and politics, nothing bores me more. But I do go to the gym. Every day, I see men in tee shirts and baggy knee length shorts. Women are in sports bras and VERY tight leggings. Or VERY short shorts. Nobody is requiring women to dress like this. It’s a choice. Sure, some guys wear tank tops. I do too, because holy crap, I lost 120 pounds and work out and I feel confident. I am assuming the women at my gym also feel confident (because nobody like a gym creeper). I’ve only seen volleyball on my local beaches. Women in bikinis and men in trunks. It’s the beach. Nobody cares. Tennis? Okay, yes, there’s a totally different dress code. I’m not a woman, so I can’t comment on whether or not it’s offensive or demeaning or anything like that.