The Down Under Lounge

[Marc]

It looks like there is a campaign beginning to encourage the unemployed to turn up at the offices of LNP politicians looking for work.

I believe that many of those who support this sort of bullshit the LNP seem to like do so from the safety of positions knowing they're very unlikely to have ever go through it.

I suspect there are more than few government MPs and staffers who have little real world job experience because they've gotten in politics.

There's one person I know who didn't pass yr12, spent a couple of years building computers for the family business then back to and adult entrance school doing yr12 again twice, got into law at university and involved with young Liberals, ran as a candidate in the state election (as burner in a safe Labor seat), then became a staffer for a Senator then onto Canberra so never had a job where he's had to compete with 1000s of others.

Bit like the Christopher Pyne.

 

[Commishsleer]

It looks like there is a campaign beginning to encourage the unemployed to turn up at the offices of LNP politicians looking for work.

I believe that many of those who support this sort of bullshit the LNP seem to like do so from the safety of positions knowing they're very unlikely to have ever go through it.

I suspect there are more than few government MPs and staffers who have little real world job experience because they've gotten in politics.

There's one person I know who didn't pass yr12, spent a couple of years building computers for the family business then back to and adult entrance school doing yr12 again twice, got into law at university and involved with young Liberals, ran as a candidate in the state election (as burner in a safe Labor seat), then became a staffer for a Senator then onto Canberra so never had a job where he's had to compete with 1000s of others.

Bit like the Christopher Pyne.

Did he get a scholarship like Tony Abbott's daughter?
Was his father mates with the dean of a government funded university? Because that would be totally fair.

The problem with making the unemployed work for the dole is that I'm pretty sure that none of those jobs will give the unemployed any skills. I may be mistaken though. I hope so.

And Australia are back on top in the Commonwealth Games.

 

[Miss Chicken]

My son, who is on a disability pension and has returned to TAFE, will lose his pensioner education supplement as a result of this budget. I worked out that my son would have to study for 38 years to get the same amount of money as Abbott's daughter's scholarship was worth.

 

[Marc]

It looks like there is a campaign beginning to encourage the unemployed to turn up at the offices of LNP politicians looking for work.

I believe that many of those who support this sort of bullshit the LNP seem to like do so from the safety of positions knowing they're very unlikely to have ever go through it.

I suspect there are more than few government MPs and staffers who have little real world job experience because they've gotten in politics.

There's one person I know who didn't pass yr12, spent a couple of years building computers for the family business then back to and adult entrance school doing yr12 again twice, got into law at university and involved with young Liberals, ran as a candidate in the state election (as burner in a safe Labor seat), then became a staffer for a Senator then onto Canberra so never had a job where he's had to compete with 1000s of others.

Bit like the Christopher Pyne.

Did he get a scholarship like Tony Abbott's daughter?
Was his father mates with the dean of a government funded university? Because that would be totally fair.

Nah just knew the right people to suck up to.

The problem with making the unemployed work for the dole is that I'm pretty sure that none of those jobs will give the unemployed any skills. I may be mistaken though. I hope so.

Pretty much yeah - it will be stuff like paint retirement homes, road side cleanup etc etc nothing that will actually help the vast majority get a job.

In fact the was a case in Melbourne if memory serves where a retirement home decided not pay a maintenance business to do some work - instead got it got free labor for a wtfd program.

Australia will probably follow the U.K example where supermarkets sacked workers and replaced them with free labour until the rules were changed.

Hell the new rules will also piss off business because they'll have to deal with a flood of applications for which there are no jobs or where the people are unqualiified.

They are going to spend $5.1billion on this shit when there's no research to show it achieved anything when the Howard government put in place or that people won't be able to simply say they sent of applications to X,Y and Z when they didn't

For those who do send applications for legitmate jobs won't have anything to show because of the trend now to only response to applicants chosen for interview.

And Australia are back on top in the Commonwealth Games.

Probably helping to distract people from the stink the emanating from the government.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I know a couple people who turned 18 recently and never got called back to the jobs they had been working part time at for several years (fast food in all cases). Because now they have to be paid more.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Many years ago I was told I was too old for job that I applied for at a newsagency. I was 17 years old at the time but they wanted a 15 or 16 year old.

 

[Australis]

Well, I can talk a little about WFTD (or as someone else said, wtfd, that works).

I lost my job back in 2003, my company lost a big support contract and didn't need so many people, so I became surplus to requirements. After the relevant amount of time job-hunting (and I wasn't sitting on my arse doing nothing), I had to join a wtfd scheme, so reluctantly did. After I'd been there a few months, the coordinator got another job, and I stuck my hand up for it, taking over the project we were working on. Each 'course' was run over 6 months, moe or less, and the group would have a project to focus on. More about them shortly.

The people were a real mix. Some really liked the opportunity and did stuff with it, learnt new skills. Some were there mostly for the social interaction and fulfilling their obligations. A couple didn't want to be there and abused it, playing computer games all day. I had to restrict net access as it would have been all day surfing from everyone (and side note: I decided I did not really like being The Man). One girl used to scowl, fold her arms and sit in the corner and say, "Huh, I'm not doin' anything!" I tried to reach her but she wasn't having any of it. She became a disruption, others could see it, and moved her out to Salvos sorting second hand clothes, their version of a punishment detail. Another guy was even more disruptive, and may have stolen a camera, though I oouldn't say for sure. He was moved to a real punishment detail, roadside litter pickup. But, I must make clear, they were the exceptions. Most everyone else chipped in to a greater or lesser degree and added somethiong.

The project I took over was a CD on local history, using as much free stuff as we could glom from local libraries and historical groups, plus an expedition taking photos of local interest spots. Using basic HTML, a little graphic design and user friendly organisation, it turned out well enough that I could make copies of it to give to local schools and libraries. The next project was a two-hander, v2 of the history CD and a set of postcards of the local area. The CD was much improved by he extra work done on it. I'll post some pics in the pics thread later (have to scan them). Some of these turned out fantastic. One guy was a complete dill IMO and completely obsessed with the whole car/hotrod/racing thing, but he had a fantastic eye for a photgraph, and his were the best. For a bunch of people with no formal arts training, they worked out really well. The final project was a local magazine, but it covered arts, music, dining, history and so on. Only produced the one issue, but if we'd been able to find advertisers it could definitely have worked. Then the company I worked for lost the contract, and I was ironically out of a job, though found another one seoon after.

So, some perople just cruised through it, filling their 'obligation'. But I think, or I like to think, some got something out of it. A couple went back to school/college to get skills based on what they'd done, and one girl joined a local radi station as an intern, ran her own programme for a while, and organises local music festivals (there's a whole other story about her, but another time). So, it wasn't an entire waste of time, because at least the basic idea of the project had some thought behind it, and I pushed these perople to take something away from it, not sit there like vegies and playing Jewel all day (as happened on a couple of other projects I filled in a few days for). Was it ideal? No, far from it. Did it have possibilities? Yes, if the projects were right. One project was in a region where older male unemployment was high (along with suicide), so they set up a Mens' Shed, which is still goiing AFAIK, plus they also had a project that built mobile barbecues for charity, big things on wheels.

Am I in favour of wtfd? NO. BUT... witn the proviso that if the projects were like these, which contributed to the community and the participants can go away having learned something, than maybe - it becomes a jumping off point to go to other things, whether a job with a few new skills or to tertiary education. But those shitty 'make work' projects? Hell, no! Piss them off tout suite! Am I better off having done it, on both sides of the divide? Not sure, don't think so. But I feel okay that I tried to help people bettrer themselves rather than falling into the trap of the unemployment cycle.

There's much more, a lot of stories, but that's enough I think. Maybe some pics from thre postcard set this evening, if anyone's interested.

 

[Miss Chicken]

I did enjoy the one and only Work for the Dole project i did. It was historical documents and I mainly transcribes documents for the Tasmanian Execution Database. I did this as a voluntary WFTD as I was over the age that I had to do WFTD.

It didn't lead to me getting an actual job but I do believe it did help me get to the job interview stage as on several occasions I was asked about the project which I never identified as being a WFTD. I think the main reason I didn't get the jobs I was interviewed for was there was already someone in the job.

Another good WFTD project was the Derwent Riverkeeper which was run by a neighbour of mine, Dave Turner. It consisted of 1) removing rubbish along the shore and in the water 2) collecting and destroying invasive Japanese sea-stars 3) creating artificial reefs 4) replanting kelp beds. Participates learnt boat skills, about ecology etc Most of them really enjoyed the work. However in the end Dave gave up due to trouble getting funding and because of red tape - especially after being told he was no longer allowed to use boats because of the cost of insurance.

 

[Commishsleer]

My friend who is on benefits says young unemployed people must apply for 30 jobs a month. It takes me a couple of days to write a serious job application and a lot of mental effort.
Employers for unskilled jobs are just going to get annoyed by all the pro-forma applications that come in.

I'm glad to hear that some WFTD schemes actually serve a purpose and are not just clearing up the roadside. I see that sort of 'work' is done by prisoners on chain gangs in the American South.
As someone who has been unemployed I would like to see the schemes have a definitive work skills outcome. Say if you were painting retirement villages, or government housing. Have a person in charge teaching you how to paint and sand properly. Or have people man the counters in Salvos to give them customer service experience.

I'd love each politician that raves on how good these schemes are - I'm looking at you Pine and Abbott (or one of their children) spend a week working for the dole, living on the money and writing out 30 job applications pro-rata.

 

[Miss Chicken]

It is only rumour but there are claims being made that Eric Abetz's staff are already hanging up on people who are phoning to see if there is any work in Mr Abetz's office. They probably are yet to receive the first of the posted resumes. There is some talk of the unemployed hiring of a bus to pick them up from small east coast towns of Tasmania so that they can all ask for jobs in the building in which Mr Abetz works (he isn't the only potential employer in the building).

Since yesterday more than 2000 people have joined the Facebook page Sending job applications to Senator Abetz.

 

[Australis]

It takes me a couple of days to write a serious job application and a lot of mental effort. Employers for unskilled jobs are just going to get annoyed by all the pro-forma applications that come in.

It's the only way you an get through that many applications, just format each cover letter a little to personalise it to that company. I also ended up with 2 or 3 resumes that targeted different job markets, emphasising certain skills.

 

[Marc]

It takes me a couple of days to write a serious job application and a lot of mental effort. Employers for unskilled jobs are just going to get annoyed by all the pro-forma applications that come in.

It's the only way you an get through that many applications, just format each cover letter a little to personalise it to that company. I also ended up with 2 or 3 resumes that targeted different job markets, emphasising certain skills.

There are now reports that any one who simply fires off pro-forma resumes to tick the boxes off will face further sanction.

That would make it even harder if you have to find 40 jobs a month to apply for that are within your skillset/abilities or that you have qualifications for.

 

[Australis]

^ Well, shit.

In other news, nothing dodgy going on here:
http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/07/31/10/36/pm-s-daughter-at-centre-of-fair-work-claim

 

[PlainSimpleJoel]

This government makes me sick. A bunch of arseholes. Some people may need have their money controlled - but not everyone on a welfare benefit.

 

[Commishsleer]

It takes me a couple of days to write a serious job application and a lot of mental effort. Employers for unskilled jobs are just going to get annoyed by all the pro-forma applications that come in.

It's the only way you an get through that many applications, just format each cover letter a little to personalise it to that company. I also ended up with 2 or 3 resumes that targeted different job markets, emphasising certain skills.

There are now reports that any one who simply fires off pro-forma resumes to tick the boxes off will face further sanction.

That would make it even harder if you have to find 40 jobs a month to apply for that are within your skillset/abilities or that you have qualifications for.

Jobs I apply for have at least 10 requirements, sometimes up to 20 and you have to address each of these in the cover letter excusing how you've missed some of the requirements. Some jobs adds say give an example of how you did A to show X and B to show Y so its no standard letter there.

So I can imagine how it is to do 40 of these a month.

Why doesn't a head kicker like Christopher Pyne show how he'd write out 40 individual letters a month, if he thinks its so easy?
And not get depressed at all the rejections.

England are back on top at the Games.

 

[jaz'a]

I haven't been paying much attention to the conversation in the media about wftd. 40 resumes a month sounds impossible, but in and of itself it isn't.

There are some on the dole where that would be possible as far as having the time and ability to do it. Low skilled jobs don't require the same level of personalisation for resumes/cover letters as higher skilled jobs. I work in the call centre and I would be able to apply for 2 jobs a day if I had to, even accounting for changing the cover letter and resume to fit the job. I would say most people would actually be able to do it, because whilst we personalise resumes and cover letters we also keep them and simply modify. Detailed selection criterias exist but not for most jobs. Nor do I think someone who is highly skilled should be excused from doing a less skilled job.

My problem is, where are these 40 jobs? I could do it, if they were there. If they have to wftd as well, then there is no hope. I would say it is impossible even if there were 40 jobs.

So bad idea. Of course it is a liberal idea so no big surprise that I'm against it.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Twiggy Forrest is saying that all welfare recipients except the elderly and veterans should have their money managed including all the disabled. I am a physically disabled pensioner who manages my money very well to the extent that I even pay for private hospital coverage so that I can help to lessen the long hospital waiting lists. The ony luxuries I spend my money on is my cat, my books and the the occasional download of TV shows (i.e I recently downloaded Game of Thrones for a total cost of $29.50). It seems that Twiggy would like to see the disabled sitting at home with nothing to do because any form of entertainment is a waste of taxpayer's money even f it is good for a person's mental state.

Maybe we need to micromanaged all politicians as they are paid by taxpayers. This would include all former politicians on a parliamentary pension.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Yes they are totally full of shit. Why are their enormous pensions for life not managed?

It's classist crap.

 

[Commishsleer]

Twiggy Forrest is saying that all welfare recipients except the elderly and veterans should have their money managed including all the disabled. I am a physically disabled pensioner who manages my money very well to the extent that I even pay for private hospital coverage so that I can help to lessen the long hospital waiting lists. The ony luxuries I spend my money on is my cat, my books and the the occasional download of TV shows (i.e I recently downloaded Game of Thrones for a total cost of $29.50). It seems that Twiggy would like to see the disabled sitting at home with nothing to do because any form of entertainment is a waste of taxpayer's money even f it is good for a person's mental state.

Maybe we need to micromanaged all politicians as they are paid by taxpayers. This would include all former politicians on a parliamentary pension.

Yes I hope Twiggy Forrest personally manages the money of all welfare recipients.
Another guy who should have to live a week in someone else's shoes before he opens his big mouth.
Maybe he could do a swap to show how easy it is to live on a disability pension.

Anyway I can see 10 000 jobs opening up in the public service for busybodies to 'manage' affairs of other adults.

Basically IMO Twiggy wants to stop Aboriginals from buying alcohol. And because of that it is proposed 2.5 million people will not be able to buy alcohol or cigarettes or McDonalds or whatever Twiggy disapproves of. I think even in gaol the prisoners get to choose what they buy.

No alcohol or chocolate or porn (Game of Thrones) or cats for you. Obviously your disability is not punishment enough.

Thanks Tony for instigating this 'bold, ambitious and brave report'

 

[jaz'a]

Twiggy Forrest is saying that all welfare recipients except the elderly and veterans should have their money managed including all the disabled. I am a physically disabled pensioner who manages my money very well to the extent that I even pay for private hospital coverage so that I can help to lessen the long hospital waiting lists. The ony luxuries I spend my money on is my cat, my books and the the occasional download of TV shows (i.e I recently downloaded Game of Thrones for a total cost of $29.50). It seems that Twiggy would like to see the disabled sitting at home with nothing to do because any form of entertainment is a waste of taxpayer's money even f it is good for a person's mental state.

Maybe we need to micromanaged all politicians as they are paid by taxpayers. This would include all former politicians on a parliamentary pension.

That is disgusting. What Twiggy wants to do, not that you bought Game of Thrones. If you are managing to do that on a pension, you've very good at managing money. It's a pittance.

I was on the disability pension for a little over 2 years a while back. Having the government manage it for me would have been disastrous. I wasn't well, but I put it towards what I needed. Which oddly enough was cigarettes. I had a mental illness which included severe anxiety - I've been back at work 3 years (exactly as of tomorrow actually) and my psych and GP are still very much against my quitting, at least not cold turkey. Smoking may increase anxiety for some, but not for everyone. A good chunk of the other patients (multiple psych hospital visits) smoked for the same reason. It was a coping mechanism and we needed it. I was smart about it though - I switch to rollies because of how much cheaper they were.

That isn't valid for everyone, but it is an example how one size doesn't fit all. We are all in unique circumstances. Taking away my ability to buy take away would also have had severe consequences. For a while there I wasn't capable of cooking. Had I not been able to buy takeaway I simply would have stopped eating.

Unless that government is going to personalise the monitoring for each and every person on a payment, then they need to keep out of it.

With the disability pension the issue we have is that there is a belief in the community that people are on it because they're making excuses and don't want to work. That there are jobs they could do, but they won't take them. They don't understand that the point of the pension is that people can't work. It was very hard to get onto, and it's only gotten harder since my time on it. If there was one misconception about welfare I could magically get rid of (other than our money needs to be monitored), it would be that one. Telling people who can't work that they aren't responsible enough to manage their own money is insulting.

And if they don't allow people to take out private health, I will be absolutely pissed as hell. The public health system for mental health is atrocious - which is why I also paid into private health the entire time I was on the pension, and why I still have it. Yet, I can see that happening.

Hmm.... seems I wrote an essay. I could probably keep going. Sufficed to say, I do not like this idea.