7X13 The Name Of The Doctor(Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

[RoJoHen]

I agree with Ghost Bones; this could easily have been an atrocity on the level of "A Good Man Goes to War," and it wasn't.

I keep hearing this, but I don't see what was so wrong with A Good Man Goes to War"

The episode didn't live up to its promises. It wasn't the game-changer Moffat said it would be. It didn't have a jaw-dropping cliffhanger that Moffat said it would. It's boring, it's talky, it pretends that it's more portentious than it is, the emotional implications of the episode are never dealt with, and for a midseason finale it's a structural failure.

Basically, it's a slickly produced piece of crap.

And yet, it's my absolute favorite episode of Doctor Who ever made, so

 

[Candlelight]

I find it so very hard to believe that Clara, a human (?) was able to fracture herself all the way to Gallifrey. I would've thought the Time Lords would've been able to prevent that. If that were the case then all the Daleks et al had to do was find a Time Lord grave and attack it. Granted 99.999999% of them would've been on Gallifrey itself...

And I thought the Time War cut off all access to the past of the Doctor (when the Doctor destroyed Gallifrey then regenerated), so really Clara should only have been able to go back as far as the Ninth Doctor.

 

[Jax]

I find it so very hard to believe that Clara, a human (?) was able to fracture herself all the way to Gallifrey. I would've thought the Time Lords would've been able to prevent that. If that were the case then all the Daleks et al had to do was find a Time Lord grave and attack it. Granted 99.999999% of them would've been on Gallifrey itself...

And I thought the Time War cut off all access to the past of the Doctor (when the Doctor destroyed Gallifrey then regenerated), so really Clara should only have been able to go back as far as the Ninth Doctor.

I assume the Doctor life is special because all he has seen & done made his own tomb a powerful weapon, The Doctor hinted at the face he's travelled more than anyone else.

 

[PorthosShadow]

I find it so very hard to believe that Clara, a human (?) was able to fracture herself all the way to Gallifrey. I would've thought the Time Lords would've been able to prevent that. If that were the case then all the Daleks et al had to do was find a Time Lord grave and attack it. Granted 99.999999% of them would've been on Gallifrey itself...

And I thought the Time War cut off all access to the past of the Doctor (when the Doctor destroyed Gallifrey then regenerated), so really Clara should only have been able to go back as far as the Ninth Doctor.

Normally I don't have any interest in reading novels based on TV shows but I would love to read a novel based on Clara's life on Gallifrey.

 

[Australis]

Speaking of novels, I'd like to declare 'Lungbarrow' non-canon.

There. I've said it.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Speaking of novels, I'd like to declare 'Lungbarrow' non-canon.

There. I've said it.

"Lungbarrow" has always been non-canon.

 

[1001001]

We finally got to watch it tonight.

One of the finest hours hours of television this year.

Brilliant!



I don't really have anything to add to the discussion that hasn't already been said. I don't know, honestly, if I understood it all, but I loved it.

I am bummed we have to wait so long to pick everything up. Lots of time for speculation and argument, I guess...

 

[Venardhi]

Hurt's doctor was a real, valid incarnation, and he did something terrible, but what? What!

If I had to guess (and this is not in any way a new theory, it's been discussed to death in this forum), I'm going with the speculation that the Hurtoctor is a regeneration between 8 / 9 who actually decided to use "The Moment" in the final days of the Time War. I think "the promise" is quite literally the Hippocratic Oath of "do no harm," and while the Doctor has caused harm -- both directly and indirectly -- over his many incarnations, what the Hurtoctor did, attempting (and partially succeeding) to remove the Time Lords and the Daleks from all of space and time, was on a scale so monumental, so horrifying, that the Doctor has essentially disavowed that incarnation. So, that's why the Ninth Doctor basically had PTSD, he had just gotten out of being a murder-hungry madman, and while he couldn't accept what had been done and was so hateful of his actions, he also was forged by that memory of genocide.

So, Eleven is still Eleven, because the Hurtoctor is an aberration in the timeline and will be done away with when it's all said and done.

Ending the time war saved the entire rest of existence though. If he didn't do it then he would be allowing the Time Lords to literally uncreate everything that had or will ever live. Whatever Hurt Doctor did would need to be far more villainous than that. If he had been drafted into the time war and actually fought for the Time Lords and committed atrocities in their name before finally coming to his senses (or being forced to them, or regenerating) and stopping the entire war by destroying both sides before they could destroy the universe, it would be far more suiting that the Doctor would be ashamed of him.

 

[Candlelight]

It'll be something different. Something we haven't heard of. Moffat - in one of the few decisions I've agreed with - has tried to distance himself from the RTD-driven Doctors who are heavy on the Time War, with Smith the Time War has barely been mentioned, and it's been a good thing.

I doubt it'll suddenly show up for the anniversary - and how the Zygons fit into it I have no idea...

 

[Mister Fandango]

I'd much prefer it if John Hurt's incarnation was a militant mad-man, drafted into the Time War and forced to do all sorts of unspeakable acts out of obligation. Then, near the end, he regenerates into Eccelston who then uses the Moment to do what needed to be done, deciding to do it because of all the things the John Hurt incarnation was forced to do.

It would much more fully explain why Eccelston's incarnation was so PTSDy, far more than just wiping out his own people. And he wouldn't be lying when he said that it was him that did it, as opposed to a disavowed incarnation of himself.

 

[Gov Kodos]

2) River Song. Will this be her last appearance?

I sincerely doubt it. Her conversation with the Doctor at the end kind of implies she'll make another appearance. And really, as long as Moffat is running the show, I'm sure we can guarantee River will be back. We're more likely to go through a whole year with no Daleks whatsoever than without River.

Please let it be the last. Strax fairly well summed up my feelings, 'Not the one with the big head.' Moffat has turned a fascinating character into one that always has to know more than anyone else in the room, including the Doctor. She really is a Marysue, much more so that Rose could ever be called. Were Alex Kingston not as entertaining an actress as she is, I would utterly loath the character.

 

[The Nightmare Doctor]

The implications of River's appearance are still rolling around my head. Are we to take it, from her dialogue, that her echo has been following the Doctor around since the Library, talking to him like some sort of Greek chorus? First, that's not only a couple of centuries that she's been following him, he's been listening to her, etc., but that's also a couple of centuries where her echo has witnessed the Doctor interacting with her living self.

Hm, I hadn't thought about that situation in that way. That implication is just as bad as the notion The Master has been hearing "the sound of drums" since he gazed into the Eye of Harmony, which is a notion I utterly despise (I like to think he's been hearing them since the Time War but I realize the episode goes against that).

 

[Judge Death]

I keep hearing this, but I don't see what was so wrong with A Good Man Goes to War"

The episode didn't live up to its promises. It wasn't the game-changer Moffat said it would be. It didn't have a jaw-dropping cliffhanger that Moffat said it would. It's boring, it's talky, it pretends that it's more portentious than it is, the emotional implications of the episode are never dealt with, and for a midseason finale it's a structural failure.

Basically, it's a slickly produced piece of crap.

And yet, it's my absolute favorite episode of Doctor Who ever made, so

I wouldn't go that far, but I really enjoyed AGMGTW and I've never understood the big problems people have with it. But then I loved Let's Kill Hitler too...

I'd much prefer it if John Hurt's incarnation was a militant mad-man, drafted into the Time War and forced to do all sorts of unspeakable acts out of obligation. Then, near the end, he regenerates into Eccelston who then uses the Moment to do what needed to be done, deciding to do it because of all the things the John Hurt incarnation was forced to do.

It would much more fully explain why Eccelston's incarnation was so PTSDy, far more than just wiping out his own people. And he wouldn't be lying when he said that it was him that did it, as opposed to a disavowed incarnation of himself.

I like this idea.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

That implication is just as bad as the notion The Master has been hearing "the sound of drums" since he gazed into the Eye of Harmony, which is a notion I utterly despise

What's wrong with it?

 

[Judge Death]

I think because there's no indication any of the other Masters were hearing drums. You'd have thought they'd have mentioned it at some point.

 

[VDCNI]

I think it was the About Time books who suggested if he has been hearing drumming all this time driving him slightly mad it would explain why he never seemed to realise alien races would double cross him, used ridiculously convoluted plans, disguised himself when there was no need to and why he pursued low level villany like trying to disrupt the signing of the Magna Carta.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You think the Meddling Monk was the Master?

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I think because there's no indication any of the other Masters were hearing drums. You'd have thought they'd have mentioned it at some point.

Maybe it wasn't as severe back then. He didn't mention that he was lactose intolerant either.

Of course it's a retcon, but it adds a little something to the character to make him something more than just "like the Doctor, but EEEVIIIL", so that was a welcome addition to the character, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[The Nightmare Doctor]

That implication is just as bad as the notion The Master has been hearing "the sound of drums" since he gazed into the Eye of Harmony, which is a notion I utterly despise

What's wrong with it?

In both cases, as Starkers suggested with The Master, there's absolutely no indication of such a thing has happened over such a long period of time (both in universe and in real time).

I think it was the About Time books who suggested if he has been hearing drumming all this time driving him slightly mad it would explain why he never seemed to realise alien races would double cross him, used ridiculously convoluted plans, disguised himself when there was no need to and why he pursued low level villany like trying to disrupt the signing of the Magna Carta.

Interesting, which book states that and where? I have all of them but I've read small sections of each so far. (And on a completely off topic note, are they ever going to do books for Eccleston and Tennant?)

 

[DalekJim]

And I thought the Time War cut off all access to the past of the Doctor (when the Doctor destroyed Gallifrey then regenerated), so really Clara should only have been able to go back as far as the Ninth Doctor.

My theory is that the time lock is still in effect, hence why Clara missed the Hurt Doctor when she splintered everywhere. He's the Time War Doctor.

Not that I'm in any hurry to revisit the Time War. The Daleks are a threat to rival the Time Lords? LMAO. The Time Lords are elemental Gods. Give them a more interesting.. Enemy . Probably the ONE thing RTD did right in his otherwise atrocious treatment of the Time Lords was make them an all-powerful force. Swiftly stopped by a deus ex machina of course but otherwise very powerful.

Speaking of novels, I'd like to declare 'Lungbarrow' non-canon.

There. I've said it.

There's no way in shit that I'm gonna accept Voyage of the Damned or whatever as canon and not the excellent Lungbarrow.