7X13 The Name Of The Doctor(Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

[EliyahuQeoni]

If Clara hadn't intervened this would have been the Fall of the 11th Doctor. The Silence didn't want the Doctor to live to open the door and let the GH undo all of the Doctor's victories and leave the Universe in ruin. It was better to kill him early than to have his previous battles undone.

No no no.

If the Doctor had fallen here then it would have been a paradox because he would have fallen before he was supposed to have fallen. This is his future where he "fell in battle". The silence might be referring to that event. I don't see the Tardis falling out of the sky as being more significant than his actual death fall in battle.

Sure, but the GH going back in time and defeating/killing the Doctor over and over in the past created a paradox as well, since if the Doctor died at Adrozani, the Dalek Asylum, or in Victorian England (or all three and then some) then he could never have died at Trenzalore, leaving behind the means for the GH to go back and kill him.

 

[MacLeod]

The phrase "silence will fall" could refer to the Doctor's victories turning into death. "The Stars are going out". Which we saw in TNOTD, no stars could = no life hence silence.

 

[PorthosShadow]

This has been mentioned once or twice so far but Clara being on Gallifrey before the First Doctor sets out on his adventures is interesting. Does that in fact mean The Time Lock was broken or was it something like The Time Lords using a loophole to send the White-Point Star diamond to Earth out of The Time War?

 

[Chaos Descending]

This has been mentioned once or twice so far but Clara being on Gallifrey before the First Doctor sets out on his adventures is interesting. Does that in fact mean The Time Lock was broken or was it something like The Time Lords using a loophole to send the White-Point Star diamond to Earth out of The Time War?

Could be that the Doctor himself is the only pre-Time War space/time construct that extends (properly) into the post-Time War space/time manifold.

Hence, the Doctor's own timeline is the only portal between the pre- and post-Time War realities.

 

[MacLeod]

Clara could be on Gallifrey because The Doctor was on Gallifrey, she was in his timeline.

 

[Saul]

The phrase "silence will fall" could refer to the Doctor's victories turning into death. "The Stars are going out". Which we saw in TNOTD, no stars could = no life hence silence.

We could say silence fell when the Tardis exploded too.

I thought this would be the brotherhood/order of the silence would fall if the question was answered.

Anyone else get a 'Bad Wolf' vibe from this episode?

and did anyone think what the Doctor saw in 'The God Complex' was his own grave.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Dorian: It's all still waiting for you: the fields of Trenzalore, the fall of the Eleventh, and the question!

The Tardis falling doesn't really seem like a note worthy moment in his History though does it? I think it refers to future (in this case past) events when the Doctor will be on Trenzalore in his future and fall in battle.

I mean they don't talk about the 'crash of the 11th' from the beginning of the "Eleventh Hour" do they? I can't imagine the Tardis falling like that was what got Dorian so excited.

Dorian probably only knows it from prophecies and riddles like everyone else (perhaps heard by the whispers too). The "fall" when the Doctor turned off the antigrav seems to have been deliberately related to the prophesy.

RE: Silence will fall when the question is asked. Didn't the Doctor explain to Winston Churchill that the silence was his silence?

 

[Ghost Bones]

Dreadful rubbish, but inoffensively so. That's enough to make it about third best of the season. I almost look kindly on it, considering I was prepared for an A Good Man Goes to War-level horror. Always nice to see Colin's coat.

 

[Butters]

Good good.

Really enjoyed the finale, infact, since the Pond woman left, the whole series has picked up.

So many possibilities.

The cracked pane in the Tardis tells us that the battle at Trenzalore and the foretold fall of the eleventh is close at hand, when the question is asked and silence falls, but we are told by Dorien that it is the fall of the Eleventh, not the fall of the Doctor. Is Hurt the eleventh? Richard E Grant as the bad guy can't be entirely coincidental either, given that he already played the Doctor twice.

Who is Hurt? Smith says he's the one that broke the promise, and he himself says he acted without choice, which to me rules out any Valyard/watcher type explanation. Hurt's doctor was a real, valid incarnation, and he did something terrible, but what? What!

Silence will fall! Silence will fall. Someone blew up that tardis, but who? Its all still waiting, on the fields on Trenzelore.

For the first time since Ronald D More said "Fuck It - I'm Ronald D Moore, I can write what I like", and proceeded to bollox up Battlestar, I'm genuinely intrigued, excited and engaged with a TV show. Well done Moffat.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

This has been mentioned once or twice so far but Clara being on Gallifrey before the First Doctor sets out on his adventures is interesting. Does that in fact mean The Time Lock was broken or was it something like The Time Lords using a loophole to send the White-Point Star diamond to Earth out of The Time War?

Clara didn't just visit The First Doctor on Gallifrey; she also visited The Fourth (The Invasion of Time) and Fifth Doctors (The Arc of Infinity). I would also say The Third Doctor, but I think that clip is from when he's trying to escape the Time Scoop and not when he's in the Death Zone.

and did anyone think what the Doctor saw in 'The God Complex' was his own grave.

I still think he saw his companions' mortality.

The cracked pane in the Tardis tells us that the battle at Trenzalore

Not necessarily. As I and others have suggested, the cracked pane could stay there for many years to come, either because The Doctor chooses to keep it there or the TARDIS won't let him fix it (either way so it would be a reminder of things to come).

 

[MacLeod]

But we had a Pond in the episode, Melody Pond.

Not of Amelia Pond's episodes were bad, just as not all of Clara's episodes have been good.

 

[Butters]

I don't post often, but I always maintained that the Smith episodes were lacking something, and since the Amy and Rory left, its felt like Dr Who again, and I didn't not like Amy, it just felt wrong; incomplete.

This latest series feels back on track.

 

[Candlelight]

I'm still on the fence with this one:

Clara's arc had merit and a decent resolution, although Moffat basically copied RTD's Bad Wolf storyline for Rose, which is a shame.
The ominous tone of the episode and finding the Doctor's grave was interesting, although half the galaxy seems to know the Doctor would fall on Trenzalore so it seems a bit silly the Doctor should be so surprised someone has found his grave!
Jenny is killed twice in this episode but it means nothing, because it seems Moffat doesn't like killing characters (the Daleks have yet to exterminate a great deal of people since Smith took charge). That said, Jenny is hot so I'm glad she survived.
The Great Intelligence was a nothing character in this episode. You could've inserted any villain for what he did. Bringing Richard E Grant back was just confusing. He should've possessed one of the 'detectives'. Would've made things harder.
River also seemed largely unnecessary to the story, save for her final scene. I really wish she would just be written out (or make her a proper) companion.
The Doctor's name - gah! It's as bad as that 60s episode The Death of Doctor Who.

Which brings me to the big finale. One of my favourite actors who 'had no choice' and is now not to be called the Doctor, except is IDENTIFIED AS THE DOCTOR by the closing graphic.

So if he is a Doctor pre-Smith then everything we've known up until now is wrong. I hope Moffat can explain it properly (IE just the graphic is wrong...).

 

[diankra]

The cracked pane in the Tardis tells us that the battle at Trenzalore

Not necessarily. As I and others have suggested, the cracked pane could stay there for many years to come, either because The Doctor chooses to keep it there or the TARDIS won't let him fix it (either way so it would be a reminder of things to come).

Also... we know from The Doctor's Wife that the TARDIS has all the console rooms archived, but still has another 20-odd to try out before the end. Yet the console room of the grave is the current version.
So clearly the TARDIS has reverted to that room when she's dying. Maybe it's (technowaffle here!) symbolic resonance causing her to revert to the same shape she was using on her first vist to Trenzalore. So the same point would apply to the exterior.
Or flipping it round, maybe the broken pane is an indication of the fatal damage the TARDIs will one day experience leaking back onto her present self...

 

[Timby]

Hurt's doctor was a real, valid incarnation, and he did something terrible, but what? What!

If I had to guess (and this is not in any way a new theory, it's been discussed to death in this forum), I'm going with the speculation that the Hurtoctor is a regeneration between 8 / 9 who actually decided to use "The Moment" in the final days of the Time War. I think "the promise" is quite literally the Hippocratic Oath of "do no harm," and while the Doctor has caused harm -- both directly and indirectly -- over his many incarnations, what the Hurtoctor did, attempting (and partially succeeding) to remove the Time Lords and the Daleks from all of space and time, was on a scale so monumental, so horrifying, that the Doctor has essentially disavowed that incarnation. So, that's why the Ninth Doctor basically had PTSD, he had just gotten out of being a murder-hungry madman, and while he couldn't accept what had been done and was so hateful of his actions, he also was forged by that memory of genocide.

So, Eleven is still Eleven, because the Hurtoctor is an aberration in the timeline and will be done away with when it's all said and done.

 

[diankra]

Timby, tend to agree with all that, except... "he had just gotten out of being a murder-hungry madman". Hurt's line is 'what I did I did from no choice' He didn't want to do it, he hated doing it, he just thought he had no choice... and did it, knowing how unforgiveable it still was.
Or something like that!

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I've been pondering this episode since Saturday. I tried to discuss it with coworkers at the office today and discovered that I couldn't really articulate anything about it beyond "Well, John Hurt elevates anything." (One coworker was even worse. He said, "Of all of Moffat's scripts, this was the Moffatiest.") Basically, the more I think about it, the less sense it makes and the less I like it. I agree with Ghost Bones; this could easily have been an atrocity on the level of "A Good Man Goes to War," and it wasn't.

The fan theories about Clara were infinitely more interesting than the reality of Clara. I do wonder if some of the Gallifreyan Claras grow up to be Time Ladies. Heck, maybe she even grows up to be Romana.

The implications of River's appearance are still rolling around my head. Are we to take it, from her dialogue, that her echo has been following the Doctor around since the Library, talking to him like some sort of Greek chorus? First, that's not only a couple of centuries that she's been following him, he's been listening to her, etc., but that's also a couple of centuries where her echo has witnessed the Doctor interacting with her living self.

And for the final scene, well, John Hurt elevates anything.

 

[The Wormhole]

And for the final scene, well, John Hurt elevates anything.

In all honesty, after watching the episode twice, the John Hurt reveal was the only moment which really got the blood pumping.

Well, that and the opening scene with Clara spliced in with all the Doctors. That was cool.

 

[EliyahuQeoni]

I agree with Ghost Bones; this could easily have been an atrocity on the level of "A Good Man Goes to War," and it wasn't.

I keep hearing this, but I don't see what was so wrong with A Good Man Goes to War"

The fan theories about Clara were infinitely more interesting than the reality of Clara.

But is that the fault of the episode? It always amazes me when fans complain because a series didn't comply with their pet theory/fan fiction. I, personally, had no expectations regarding Clara and thought the resolution was fantastic.

I do wonder if some of the Gallifreyan Claras grow up to be Time Ladies. Heck, maybe she even grows up to be Romana.

Well, if Clara was born and lived on Gallifrey at the time The Doctor left in the TARDIS, then she could conceivably be the same incarnation that encountered #4 and #5. In other words, there may only be one Gallifreyan Clara.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I agree with Ghost Bones; this could easily have been an atrocity on the level of "A Good Man Goes to War," and it wasn't.

I keep hearing this, but I don't see what was so wrong with A Good Man Goes to War"

The episode didn't live up to its promises. It wasn't the game-changer Moffat said it would be. It didn't have a jaw-dropping cliffhanger that Moffat said it would. It's boring, it's talky, it pretends that it's more portentious than it is, the emotional implications of the episode are never dealt with, and for a midseason finale it's a structural failure.

Basically, it's a slickly produced piece of crap.