STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[Pauln6]

Spock is willing to push away emotions but can't do it when it counts. Nyota never says "Stop Spock. It's wrong." She says "Stop Spock, we need him."

Scotty is the only redeeming figure in the whole movie. He is capable at his job, tries his hardest to do what is right, and has training to handle these situations. And he gets busted off the Enterprise for it.

Yeah, the moral compass of most of Starfleet is a bit off. I think too much of the USA's 'revenge is good' attitude has tended to creep into this franchise, eclipsing Roddenberry's more optimistic tone. I do accept that Roddenberry's desire to maintain harmony among Starfleet was a straitjacket that the franchise needed to take off but I would at the very least like my main characters to show some of that optimism. I applauded Pike's rant and Kirk does pedal back from the appalling execution scene from the last movie.

I actually think that you mean to applaud both Sulu and Keenser. To date Sulu has demonstrated the most moral fibre out of all the characters. I've really warmed to Cho's unassuming portrayal much like TOS Uhura's quiet efficiency.

Keenser, despite being a senior officer, believe it or not (according to the comics he's a lieutenant and is apparently the assistant chief engineer I assume since Kirk does not promote the assistant to be chief), he tkes a lot of abuse and is treated like s skivvy by Scotty in what seems to be a terrible case of workplace bullying and 'disability' discrimination. Plus Scotty does have a history of behaving unprofessionally and abusing animals. He was good in the movie but give more credit to those that really deserve it!

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Regarding when Marcus lost control of Khan, I'm almost positive it was before the movie started. Khan was already running rogue. I doubt the attack on the council/meeting was part of any plan on Marcus' part.

On Enterprise, Khan said he tried to get his people out by placing them in the torpedoes, was found out, and had to escape. His actions having been discovered, he was under the impression his people were then all killed. So he described his subsequent actions (bombing, attack on meeting) as him responding in kind for what was done to him.

See that's what I thought, but J. and some other people (?) have said that the blowing up of the "archive" was ordered by Marcus. So if Marcus orders the archive blown up and Khan does it what happens to make him turn within hours of that event and try and kill Marcus? Does he contact Marcus after the archive is blown up and Marcus says, "No you can't have your people, fuck off"? Or has he already turned and decided that blowing up the archive suited him anyway? Or is the blowing up of the archive all his own doing and Marcus did not order it?

There's no way the blowing up of the Starfleet meeting was ordered by Marcus. This wasn't a sniper assassination that Marcus could feel safe from, missiles were blown into the room.

I also want to know why they put 72 torpedoes on the Enterprise to kill one person. Yes Marcus was hoping a war would start but even 10 would do the trick. We know Khan has put all his people in the torpedoes so they are super important to him but wouldn't Marcus, who doesn't know this, want to keep some of his super weapons aside in case this fails and he needs them to get some other pawn to start a war?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Keenser, despite being a senior officer, believe it or not (according to the comics he's a lieutenant and is apparently the assistant chief engineer I assume since Kirk does not promote the assistant to be chief), he tkes a lot of abuse and is treated like s skivvy by Scotty in what seems to be a terrible case of workplace bullying and 'disability' discrimination. Plus Scotty does have a history of behaving unprofessionally and abusing animals. He was good in the movie but give more credit to those that really deserve it!

I don't see that at all. I see Keenser and Scotty as having a friendly relationship that is just punctuated by good natured insults, nothing more than that. Scotty is not abusing Keenser, he's just 'needling' the guy. Real friends do that all the time.

And when has Scotty (any version) ever shown any tendency towards "behaving unprofessionally and abusing animals"? Scotty is about the least likely to act that way out of any TOS character.

 

[flemm]

But Kirk did step back and examine what he was about to do and the morality of such after seeing his officers react negatively to the mission.

Yeah, he did. I think part of what the movie was trying to do here was *flip* Kirk and Spock a bit as the story plays out, with Kirk adopting the more "by the book," selfless attitude, and Spock finally succumbing to rage because he loses his friend.

So, by the end, they understand each other better.

I liked this aspect of the movie a lot. I'm still digesting it, and I'll probably want to see it again, but ultimately I think my opinion will mostly end up being that I wish they had told the story without lifting so much directly from TWoK. That mostly fell flat for me, at least initially. But we'll see.

Uhura gets through to Spock by making the logical argument. I don't think a purely ethical argument would have worked at that point, but that is intentional, the idea is that Spock has abandoned the ethical perspective, while Kirk has adopted it.

 

[Pauln6]

I think you take the whole 'sexual equality' thing of a show that was born in the sixties a little too seriously. It's Star Trek, it is what it is. There's lots of other shows that do far better on the 'sexual equality' count, you'd likely be happier watching those.

I hope you don't take ME a little too seriously. Every one of my rants is tongue in cheek.

Battlestar Galactica did do the equality of the sexes far better and I did enjoy it but sexism is not acceptable anywhere. I don't think it's fair that fewer actresses get speaking roles in this franchise and even in the sixties they were blowing the trumpet of equality - albeit they thought 66/33 was equal until TMP when they went for 50/50. Starfleet is supposed to espouse equality - the concept isn't flawed; the execution of that concept by the writers is flawed and has been in every version of Trek where 66/33 has been maintained in the face of hollow words about equality. Right now 66/33 in this franchise would be a big improvement I love pointing that out. They are sliding backwards!

 

[Pauln6]

Keenser, despite being a senior officer, believe it or not (according to the comics he's a lieutenant and is apparently the assistant chief engineer I assume since Kirk does not promote the assistant to be chief), he tkes a lot of abuse and is treated like s skivvy by Scotty in what seems to be a terrible case of workplace bullying and 'disability' discrimination. Plus Scotty does have a history of behaving unprofessionally and abusing animals. He was good in the movie but give more credit to those that really deserve it!

I don't see that at all. I see Keenser and Scotty as having a friendly relationship that is just punctuated by good natured insults, nothing more than that. Scotty is not abusing Keenser, he's just 'needling' the guy. Real friends do that all the time.

And when has Scotty (any version) ever shown any tendency towards "behaving unprofessionally and abusing animals"? Scotty is about the least likely to act that way out of any TOS character.

They are obviously friends but Keenser is an officer and Scotty's needling while they are on duty undermines his authority as an officer. Until the comic, I thought he was just a crewman and if that was the case, I would give Scotty's behaviour a pass. I actually think the writers of the comic hadn't given much thought to what being an officer actually means on a ship with 400 crew. Keenser was also the chief engineer on the outpost for years and yet Scotty, freshly from the Academy, somehow ends up treating him like a sub-ordinate. The origin story in the comic wasn't well thought out!

TOS Scotty was great. This version experimented on live animals on multiple occasions and beamed a bio-hazard to Earth by bypassing quarantine protocols in the comic. He's good fun in this film but he's far from a model officer!

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I thought Scotty's ribbing and affection and Keenser's obvious devotion suggested they may have been lovers.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

...and there it is, a brand new low.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Keenser isn't THAT short MLB.

 

[borgmatrix]

There's no way the blowing up of the Starfleet meeting was ordered by Marcus.

Agreed.

I also want to know why they put 72 torpedoes on the Enterprise to kill one person. Yes Marcus was hoping a war would start but even 10 would do the trick. We know Khan has put all his people in the torpedoes so they are super important to him but wouldn't Marcus, who doesn't know this, want to keep some of his super weapons aside in case this fails and he needs them to get some other pawn to start a war?

Marcus does know Khan's people are in the torpedoes. Khan escaped after it was discovered he was trying to hide his people in the torpedoes. He assumed all of his people were killed at that point. They hadn't been. But when Marcus had all the torpedoes placed on Enterprise, I think the intent was that this would lead to all of them being killed: Enterprise fires on Kronos killing Khan, and the rest of Khan's people are killed when the sabotaged Enterprise stuck in Klingon space is destroyed by Klingon forces.

 

[Keith1701]

Just got back from the movie. Enjoyed it thoroughly!!

A few minor quibbles though:

How far is Qo'nos from Earth? About 10 minutes?

And a super-augment like Khan didn't think that the torpedoes could have been tampered with or armed by Spock?

Like I said, minor quibbles.

Liked the continuity references, the presence of the tribble, Section 31. Kickass Klingons. Except they got their asses kicked.

So now that Klingon space has been violated, we're gonna see war in Star Trek XIII?

A plus from me.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

There's no way the blowing up of the Starfleet meeting was ordered by Marcus.

Agreed.

I also want to know why they put 72 torpedoes on the Enterprise to kill one person. Yes Marcus was hoping a war would start but even 10 would do the trick. We know Khan has put all his people in the torpedoes so they are super important to him but wouldn't Marcus, who doesn't know this, want to keep some of his super weapons aside in case this fails and he needs them to get some other pawn to start a war?

Marcus does know Khan's people are in the torpedoes. Khan escaped after it was discovered he was trying to hide his people in the torpedoes. He assumed all of his people were killed at that point. They hadn't been. But when Marcus had all the torpedoes placed on Enterprise, I think the intent was that this would lead to all of them being killed: Enterprise fires on Kronos killing Khan, and the rest of Khan's people are killed when the sabotaged Enterprise stuck in Klingon space is destroyed by Klingon forces.

This seems kind of stupid, taking the entirety of what he holds over Khan and sending it towards Khan. Surely if he wanted them dead he could have just turned off the cryo?

 

[CaptainDonovin]

Seeing it Friday morning, can't wait!

 

[BillJ]

Getting ready to leave for my second viewing, first with the wife.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

But when Marcus had all the torpedoes placed on Enterprise, I think the intent was that this would lead to all of them being killed: Enterprise fires on Kronos killing Khan, and the rest of Khan's people are killed when the sabotaged Enterprise stuck in Klingon space is destroyed by Klingon forces.

Because this makes more sense than just thawing them out one or two at a time to see if any others have useful skills similar to Khan's, and then shoving the rest of them into an incinerator on Earth?

Also - unless I misunderstood the dialogue, the fuel compartments of these torpedoes had been removed to make room for the cryocylinders. What was going to propel them from Enterprise to the surface of Kronos?

 

[Commishsleer]

Each and every one of these characters has a legitimate motivation for revenge--Khan for being used by Starfleet, Kirk for the murder of Admiral Pike, Khan for Kirk betraying him... No character steps back from those emotions to show how we should respond...

But Kirk did step back and examine what he was about to do and the morality of such after seeing his officers react negatively to the mission. Much like Picard stepped back from using the virus on the Borg after people like Guinan and Geordi convinced him it was wrong.

Khan was still a terrorist who had a hand in murdering people and Kirk arrived at the correct way to handle the situation.

Sometimes you gotta make hard (perhaps immoral decisions when not at war) when you're in charge.
Archer pirated a ship, killed a clone of Trip when the Earth was threatened. IMO Picard should have sent the virus and taken a chance that the Borg would have been destroyed. Imagine the billions of lives that would have been spared if he did. The Borg had the capacity to wipe out the galaxy.
And Marcus had the right and duty to develop warships as an admiral in Starfleet. He crosses the line though in 'enslaving' Khan and betraying one of his own ships. He's not at war - he just wants to start one.
I agree Starfleet should keep Khan and his guys under wraps. They are just too dangerous for the 23rd century. Perhaps they can be woken up in the 27th

 

[T J]

Love how the Enterprise has torpedo tubes on the side of the secondary hull. She can fire broadsides like an ancient galleon! Just one of the many many cool aspects of the film.

 

[Amaris]

Love how the Enterprise has torpedo tubes on the side of the secondary hull. She can fire broadsides like an ancient galleon! Just one of the many many cool aspects of the film.

See, that just makes sense to me, too. Having weapons only in the fore or aft of the ship is silly, and leaves much of your ship unprotected.

 

[borgmatrix]

This seems kind of stupid, taking the entirety of what he holds over Khan and sending it towards Khan.

If Khan's dead, there's no longer any reason to hold anything over him.

Surely if he wanted them dead he could have just turned off the cryo?

Marcus probably saw this as a way of getting rid of all evidence in one fell swoop. He likely wasn't certain what he wanted to do with the augments, but with Harrison/Khan getting more out of control, and opportunity presenting itself with Kirk wanting to go after Khan and kill him, Marcus probably saw it as a chance to wash his hands of all of this before it got worse.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

IF one survived and the Klingons revived him/her.. Klingons would have a lot of fun with that.

I agree about the washing his hands of it, getting rid of evidence.