STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[yenny]

Somewhat more seriously, it's strongly implied in TWOK that Khan's lust for revenge is fueled by his helplessness to protect his people - including and especially his "beloved wife" - from the environmental disaster on Ceti Alpha V. He places the blame for that on Kirk. It sounds as if he cared very much.

I have to agree with you on that, after Joachim died in his arms on the Reliant, Khan did say 'I will avenge you."

Of course, there's the theory that's been bandied about that Joachim was supposed to be Khan's son, but the impression that I got was that he was a trusted friend and probably Khan's right-hand man.

According to the Star Trek Encyclopedia: Joachim: Aide to Khan Noonien Singh, and one of the 96 surviving genetic "supermen" who escaped from Earth in 1996 aboard the S.S. Botany Bay.
Joachim served as Khan second-in-comand when Khan commandeered the Starship Reliant and died when Khan detonated the Genesis Device.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Actually the character in TOS was JoaQUIN, not JoaCHIM. And it seems clear that Joachim is too young to be the same person anyway.

In the novels, Joachim is Joaquin's son; when Joaquin is killed, Khan raises the boy as his own.

 

[Agent Richard07]

Okay, I've been thinking way too much about this movie over the last few hours and I've found myself piecing together what little I know. Here's what I think happens, and I'm just going to throw it out here not having read any posts or spoilers. Just pure speculation on my part.

Here we go…
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Someone found the Botany Bay, probably Admiral Marcus. Khan and his crew were then awakened, integrated into 23rd century society and given work as operatives with Section 31. Khan is given the alias "John Harrison" and a little plastic surgery. Now Marcus for whatever reeason has a change of heart about his decision and has these people killed off. Khan trusted Marcus and this new society and this is how he was repaid? This makes Khan mad and he retaliates with a terrorist attack. Kirk then goes after him not knowing that Marcus caused this anger. Somehwere along the line Carol falls for Khan. She serves as the Marla McGivers character this time around. Daddy can't be too happy about this. Anyway, Khan is stopped, but not killed, leaving room for a return. We got an original story with elements of "Space Seed" and The Wrath of Khan. Next time, we could get a follow-up with more elements of The Wrath of Khan and The Search for Spock.

Like I said, I know nothing. Maybe I'm onto something and maybe I'm way off. I'll know for sure in three weeks. Not gonna read any posts.

 

[6079SmithW]

If you are going to use elements from the prime reality, at least get the elements right. Khan was a Sikh. He governed a region of territory in either Africa or Asia. Instead, we get a Caucasian. This s**t was tolerable in the past; it's less so now. And, now, if the info is correct, we have another date point for the Eugenics War, these wars occurred in the 1950s. (300 years before 2259.)

I'll just roll with it like the way Klingons went from their TOS appearance to their TMP appearance with no explanations. They had always looked that way. In my mind I'll just pretend Kahn always looked like Cumberbatch. Of course, the Klingon appearance got a retcon and maybe nuKahn will too someday. Until then I won't lose sleep over it.

 

[Sky]

I'll just roll with it like the way Klingons went from their TOS appearance to their TMP appearance with no explanations. They had always looked that way. In my mind I'll just pretend Kahn always looked like Cumberbatch. Of course, the Klingon appearance got a retcon and maybe nuKahn will too someday. Until then I won't lose sleep over it.

Yeah for me this is a non-issue. The exact looks or ethnic backgrounds don't need to match. If the actor is good, he'll make it his Khan anyway.

 

[StarMan]

It's a nice touch utilizing Section 31. I wouldn't have thought they would bother to be honest.

 

[Captrek]

I'll just roll with it like the way Klingons went from their TOS appearance to their TMP appearance with no explanations. They had always looked that way. In my mind I'll just pretend Kahn always looked like Cumberbatch. Of course, the Klingon appearance got a retcon and maybe nuKahn will too someday. Until then I won't lose sleep over it.

Yeah for me this is a non-issue. The exact looks or ethnic backgrounds don't need to match. If the actor is good, he'll make it his Khan anyway.

The genetic engineers spliced some Time Lord DNA into the Augments. Cumberbatch is the Second Khan.

 

[yenny]

Spoiler: Admiral Robocop and the Torpedoes

Hmmm. That does seem rather convoluted, if true. I just assumed that he needed some way to smuggle them aboard the Enterprise to retrieve later for some reason not yet revealed, and while cryotubes would be easily spotted, some new special torpedo wouldn't be questioned, except by Scotty apparently. I really liked the description of that scene and Scotty's protectiveness of the ship/crew and questioning of their mission, btw.

Spoiler: Scotty

I wonder if the falling out between Kirk and Scotty is a ruse to clear the way to dispatch Scotty on a secret mission.

That's a good possibility given where Scotty ends up after that.

If you are going to use elements from the prime reality, at least get the elements right. Khan was a Sikh. He governed a region of territory in either Africa or Asia. Instead, we get a Caucasian. This s**t was tolerable in the past; it's less so now. And, now, if the info is correct, we have another date point for the Eugenics War, these wars occurred in the 1950s. (300 years before 2259.)

Khan was played by a Mexican man who didn't look remotely Sikh. His followers were originally multi-ethnic but became Aryan supermen by the time of TWoK. The precious canon can survive a tweak here and there every now and then.

Given his genetically engineered DNA, it's possible that Khan might not look anything like what his heritage would suggest anyway.

As far as the 300 years thing goes, people tend to just round it off when you get into bigger numbers like that. It doesn't have to mean precisely 300 years.

You are right about Ricardo Montalban being born in Mexico, but his parents were born in Spain.

The Genetic Enhancement Project was started 1959.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

It could be explained also by Section 31, if they had further enhanced his genetics.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

No explanation for Khan's appearance is offered in the film, any more than an explanation for Kirk being a blue-eyed fellow who doesn't look much like William Shatner was offered in ST 2009.

 

[Agent Richard07]

Okay, I've been thinking way too much about this movie over the last few hours and I've found myself piecing together what little I know. Here's what I think happens, and I'm just going to throw it out here not having read any posts or spoilers. Just pure speculation on my part.

Here we go…
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Someone found the Botany Bay, probably Admiral Marcus. Khan and his crew were then awakened, integrated into 23rd century society and given work as operatives with Section 31. Khan is given the alias "John Harrison" and a little plastic surgery. Now Marcus for whatever reeason has a change of heart about his decision and has these people killed off. Khan trusted Marcus and this new society and this is how he was repaid? This makes Khan mad and he retaliates with a terrorist attack. Kirk then goes after him not knowing that Marcus caused this anger. Somehwere along the line Carol falls for Khan. She serves as the Marla McGivers character this time around. Daddy can't be too happy about this. Anyway, Khan is stopped, but not killed, leaving room for a return. We got an original story with elements of "Space Seed" and The Wrath of Khan. Next time, we could get a follow-up with more elements of The Wrath of Khan and The Search for Spock.

Like I said, I know nothing. Maybe I'm onto something and maybe I'm way off. I'll know for sure in three weeks. Not gonna read any posts.

Oh yeah, and we'll probably sympathize with Khan because he'll fight for the disenfranchised in this so called bright future. And the Klingons are in on it too because it's an opportunity to strike at the Federation.

 

[yenny]

If you are going to use elements from the prime reality, at least get the elements right. Khan was a Sikh. He governed a region of territory in either Africa or Asia. Instead, we get a Caucasian. This s**t was tolerable in the past; it's less so now. And, now, if the info is correct, we have another date point for the Eugenics War, these wars occurred in the 1950s. (300 years before 2259.)

The Eugenics War was fought during the years 2065-2070. That if I'm right about Jonathan Archer great-grandfather (who had fought in that war as a US Army Officer) being born between 1995-2025?

 

[yenny]

^ Actually the character in TOS was JoaQUIN, not JoaCHIM. And it seems clear that Joachim is too young to be the same person anyway.

In the novels, Joachim is Joaquin's son; when Joaquin is killed, Khan raises the boy as his own.

He is also to old to be born in the 20 year time period. So he had to be born on Earth and escape with his dad Joaquin aboard the Botany Bay.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

Inuniverse Cumberkhan and Montalkhan look identical just as inuniverse Kirk in AbramsTrek and TOSTrek look indentically or Scotty or Uhura or whoever. NimoySpock instantly recognize PineKirk as Kirk. no biggie really.

And Section 31 is actually name dropped in the movie?

 

[throwback]

It's not clear when the Eugenics War were. We have the late 20th century (TOS, TAS), the mid-21st century (ENT), or the mid-22nd century (DS9).

I understand why the comic series leading into this film didn't give information on the discovery of the Botany Bay. However, why didn't the film include this information and show the betrayal, as seen from Khan's viewpoint, in a flashback?

I have issues with the USS Vengeance; namely, the issue of a covert black ops unit using this behemoth. The purpose of such an unit is stealth - you don't want to draw attention to your activities. This ship is contrary to the nature of such an unit. Excuse me, here, if I offend, but it is as idiotic as planting bombs in a camera-heavy public area while wearing your trademark hat in your trademark style.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

It's not clear when the Eugenics War were. We have the late 20th century (TOS, TAS), the mid-21st century (ENT), or the mid-22nd century (DS9).

Well, it is called The Eugenics Wars, so there's no reason why it couldn't have been a series of separate wars connected by a common theme, such as genetically engineered supermen and/or cloned, cybernetically enhanced, or disposable soldiers like the drug-addicted soldier from 2079 in Encounter at Farpoint. That could explain why there was a war in the 1990s, why the war was confused with WWIII in the 2050s, and why Archer's grandfather was fighting in a Eugenics War in 2079.

I have issues with the USS Vengeance; namely, the issue of a covert black ops unit using this behemoth. The purpose of such an unit is stealth - you don't want to draw attention to your activities.

Space is vast. The ship could be ten miles long and still be "stealthy." Plus, Section 31 might be taking a more active and overt role in this universe, and will flex their muscle publicly from time to time.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

What does any of this have to do with Robert April and the Phaedrans?

I don't think it does. I think the point of Countdown to Darkness was the fourth issue reveal that Starfleet Intelligence is rotten.

It's Section 31, isn't it? Not the same thing.

Section 31 isn't namechecked in Countdown to Darkness, whereas Kirk is told by Pike that Admiral Marcus of Starfleet Intelligence is covering up April and the Phaedus incident. The implication is that it's SI that's rotten and trying to start a war.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Inuniverse Cumberkhan and Montalkhan look identical just as inuniverse Kirk in AbramsTrek and TOSTrek look indentically or Scotty or Uhura or whoever. NimoySpock instantly recognize PineKirk as Kirk. no biggie really.

Exactly so.

 

[abaldwin360]

if the spoilers are to be believed, STID will definitely connect with Trek lore so I guess the fans who've complained that it is too "action movie" and will not "feel" like Trek should have nothing to worry about.

The fans who enjoy complaining will still complain. The fans who say, "JJ, take me on an adventure!" will have fun!

I have observed that for the entire history of Star Trek films, there are always die hard Trekkers who can't be pleased.

What JJ has done is pretty monumental in that he's made the mythology accessible to people beyond the core fandom (people of my generation and your generation). My tumblr dashboard is filled up on a daily basis with the excited chatter of 18-25 year olds who became fans because of the '09 film, and are finding out about Trek for the first time and who are getting into watching the original series.

These people are on the edge of their seat looking forward to this movie. They are coming to the fandom without preconceived notions.

I think that's awesome.

Yep!

I'm 38 and a life-long trek fan. My fiancee is 23 and a huge sci-fi fantasy fan (Doctor Who, Harry Potter, so on and so forth) but had never watched Star Trek.

I got her to watch the '09 movie first and she enjoyed it, so I then got her to watch Wrath of Khan, after which she was hooked, I've since gotten her to watch The Search for Spock, Generations and First Contact.

She's super-excited about Into Darkness and it's been awesome getting her involved in the fandom.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Section 31 isn't namechecked in Countdown to Darkness

But if Legion's synopsis is accurate, it is mentioned in STID itself.

whereas Kirk is told by Pike that Admiral Marcus of Starfleet Intelligence is covering up April and the Phaedus incident. The implication is that it's SI that's rotten and trying to start a war.

If Pike doesn't know about Section 31, then Kirk won't know either. Pike could simply be assuming that the entirety of SI is at fault when it's actually Section 31 that's doing the bad stuff.