STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

[Franklin]

I'm wondering...

Spoiler: oddity

how Section 31 could have possibly convinced Khan to work for them. Khan does not seem like the type who would give in to threats of any kind. I've heard that S31 holds the other Augments as ransom, but Khan is also not particularly compassionate. Why would he care about them?

This has bothered me, too. Especially because the major flaws in the augments (as pointed out in "Space Seed") are that they are overly aggressive and overly ambitious. They can't help it.

Spoiler: Speculative answer

He might care about them as loyal allies. He was the "least brutal" of the tyrants, remember. That said, I can't imagine how he would stoop as low as he apparently did for so long and not find a way to use his superior intellect and such to free them a lot sooner. How could someone who can't control his aggression and ambition be subservient to Starfleet for more than a day without being unable to take it any longer?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Those objections depend upon personal opinions about Khan as a character. My own impression was that in his "Space Seed" incarnation Khan was a guy who cared about his 72 peoplesicles. They are, after all, the only others of his kind whom he knows to exist and they're the folks who all chose to take this rather unlikely one-way trip rather than submit to trial and...whatever back on Earth.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I suppose the other Augments would be the only people in the universe whom Khan really would care about. I'm not counting Marla McGivers in this, because we saw how he treated her in TOS. Glad she's not in STID (apparently)...

 

[Locutus of Bored]

A museum in Los Angeles was supposed to fill in for a famous "Star Trek" location. Can anyone say what that location was?

I tried looking all over for it, but it's not listed on any of the official locations, although they do list "Los Angeles" in addition to things that are already in LA. So, either they changed their mind and didn't film there since 2011 (which also happened with the jungle scenes that were supposed to be filmed in Hawaii but were instead filmed in SoCal), or they forgot to list it/are keeping it secret for some reason.

If I had to take a guess, I would have to say that the Getty Center would be the most likely LA museum they'd film at. It looks like it would fit right in in Trek, and the interior/exterior resembles some of the shots of the San Francisco foot chase with Cumberbatch and Spock.



Alternatively, it could be a new location for Starfleet Academy, which had previously filmed exterior shots at the Oviatt Library in Cal State Northridge, or a part of Starfleet HQ like the interior of the skyscrapers in the trailer.



Here's a flickrstream of shots from the Getty Center:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/gettycentre/interesting/

PS: Whatever those spherical drones are - they heavilly remind me of Xindi. Section 31 would probably not hesitate to use tech outlawed by treaties and such...

In the third trailer, they appear to be some sort of weapon, but not like a torpedo. Mines, perhaps?

 

[Enterprise is Great]

It really wasn't until Khan's thirst for vengance against Kirk totally consumed him that he didn't care if his followers died or not. Until then he seemed content to love and lead them.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Even then, he was big on "avenging" them after they dropped like flies...

Somewhat more seriously, it's strongly implied in TWOK that Khan's lust for revenge is fueled by his helplessness to protect his people - including and especially his "beloved wife" - from the environmental disaster on Ceti Alpha V. He places the blame for that on Kirk. It sounds as if he cared very much.

 

[Captrek]

I'm wondering...

Spoiler: oddity

how Section 31 could have possibly convinced Khan to work for them. Khan does not seem like the type who would give in to threats of any kind. I've heard that S31 holds the other Augments as ransom, but Khan is also not particularly compassionate. Why would he care about them?

This has bothered me, too. Especially because the major flaws in the augments (as pointed out in "Space Seed") are that they are overly aggressive and overly ambitious. They can't help it.

Spoiler: Speculative answer

He might care about them as loyal allies. He was the "least brutal" of the tyrants, remember. That said, I can't imagine how he would stoop as low as he apparently did for so long and not find a way to use his superior intellect and such to free them a lot sooner. How could someone who can't control his aggression and ambition be subservient to Starfleet for more than a day without being unable to take it any longer?

That sort of works for me.

Spoiler: Crime

What is the "crime I cannot forgive"? According to the summary, the cyber pods are still functioning. Nobody's been seriously harmed yet, except that §31's possession of them forces Khan to work for them. So he sets out first to recover the pods and then return to avenge the crime of forcing the superior man to work as a subservient.

This summary seems to forget about the pods after the torpedo switcheroo. Where are the Popsicles, and does Khan make any further attempt to recover or help them?

 

[Procutus]

Somewhat more seriously, it's strongly implied in TWOK that Khan's lust for revenge is fueled by his helplessness to protect his people - including and especially his "beloved wife" - from the environmental disaster on Ceti Alpha V. He places the blame for that on Kirk. It sounds as if he cared very much.

I have to agree with you on that, after Joachim died in his arms on the Reliant, Khan did say 'I will avenge you."

Of course, there's the theory that's been bandied about that Joachim was supposed to be Khan's son, but the impression that I got was that he was a trusted friend and probably Khan's right-hand man.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

if the spoilers are to be believed, STID will definitely connect with Trek lore so I guess the fans who've complained that it is too "action movie" and will not "feel" like Trek should have nothing to worry about.

The fans who enjoy complaining will still complain.

Personally, I would really, really love to like this movie, but the reviews sound as if the creators have once again confused "story that includes fan wank" with "telling a good Star Trek story". It's not even that I mind fan wank - when done well it can be very enjoyable. But when the story has to be tortured to fit it in (cough*nuKirk runs into Spock Prime on random ice planet*cough), I'd rather do without it.

And I'd much, much rather the writers simply try to tell a good Star Trek story and forget old univers/ new universe connections. Lord, how I wish they had just done a total reboot and gone after the spirit of Star Trek rather than using time travel and AUs. Needlessly complicated, continuity-hound pandering just gets in the way of good storytelling, as the first movie painfully demonstrates.

The fans who say, "JJ, take me on an adventure!" will have fun!

I have little doubt the film will be as fun, and as dumb, as the first Abrams film was. I don't think looking for fun and at least minimally smart is too much to ask. I'd settle for fun sans plotholes big enough to fly a starship through, but it doesn't sound like I'm going to get it.

A museum in Los Angeles was supposed to fill in for a famous "Star Trek" location. Can anyone say what that location was?

I tried looking all over for it, but it's not listed on any of the official locations, although they do list "Los Angeles" in addition to things that are already in LA. So, either they changed their mind and didn't film there since 2011 (which also happened with the jungle scenes that were supposed to be filmed in Hawaii but were instead filmed in SoCal), or they forgot to list it/are keeping it secret for some reason.

If I had to take a guess, I would have to say that the Getty Center would be the most likely LA museum they'd film at.

It is the Getty Center. I don't know exactly what the in-story location is supposed to be, but in the teaser trailer it's the shot with rows of people sitting in front of a large building with the voice over "You think your world is safe."

 

[Franklin]

I'm wondering...

Spoiler: oddity

how Section 31 could have possibly convinced Khan to work for them. Khan does not seem like the type who would give in to threats of any kind. I've heard that S31 holds the other Augments as ransom, but Khan is also not particularly compassionate. Why would he care about them?

This has bothered me, too. Especially because the major flaws in the augments (as pointed out in "Space Seed") are that they are overly aggressive and overly ambitious. They can't help it.

Spoiler: Speculative answer

He might care about them as loyal allies. He was the "least brutal" of the tyrants, remember. That said, I can't imagine how he would stoop as low as he apparently did for so long and not find a way to use his superior intellect and such to free them a lot sooner. How could someone who can't control his aggression and ambition be subservient to Starfleet for more than a day without being unable to take it any longer?

That sort of works for me.

Spoiler: Crime

What is the "crime I cannot forgive"? According to the summary, the cyber pods are still functioning. Nobody's been seriously harmed yet, except that §31's possession of them forces Khan to work for them. So he sets out first to recover the pods and then return to avenge the crime of forcing the superior man to work as a subservient.

This summary seems to forget about the pods after the torpedo switcheroo. Where are the Popsicles, and does Khan make any further attempt to recover or help them?

Spoiler: The torpedoes

It's obvious that Marcus wanted to get rid of the 72 sleeping augments by stuffing them into torpedoes and hoping the Enterprise would have to fire them. Kind of weird, really. If the presence of those cryo tubes is that much of a secret, and he wants to get rid of them now that Khan's gone rogue, wouldn't there be a quieter and more dependable way to do it? Just have the tubes "malfunction." Vaporize them. Anything else.

And yes, what happens to the pods after they've been discovered? If they all survive, then what happens to them after Khan is defeated? Will Starfleet wake up 72 supermen or superwomen after they see what Khan just did by himself?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Thanks for the confirmation, Lapis. I knew some of those shots reminded me of the Getty Center when first I saw it, but I couldn't find the right screencap of it.

Spoiler: The torpedoes

It's obvious that Marcus wanted to get rid of the 72 sleeping augments by stuffing them into torpedoes and hoping the Enterprise would have to fire them. Kind of weird, really. If the presence of those cryo tubes is that much of a secret, and he wants to get rid of them now that Khan's gone rogue, wouldn't there be a quieter and more dependable way to do it? Just have the tubes "malfunction." Vaporize them. Anything else.

Spoiler: Admiral Robocop and the Torpedoes

Hmmm. That does seem rather convoluted, if true. I just assumed that he needed some way to smuggle them aboard the Enterprise to retrieve later for some reason not yet revealed, and while cryotubes would be easily spotted, some new special torpedo wouldn't be questioned, except by Scotty apparently. I really liked the description of that scene and Scotty's protectiveness of the ship/crew and questioning of their mission, btw.

 

[Captrek]

Spoiler: Admiral Robocop and the Torpedoes

Hmmm. That does seem rather convoluted, if true. I just assumed that he needed some way to smuggle them aboard the Enterprise to retrieve later for some reason not yet revealed, and while cryotubes would be easily spotted, some new special torpedo wouldn't be questioned, except by Scotty apparently. I really liked the description of that scene and Scotty's protectiveness of the ship/crew and questioning of their mission, btw.

Spoiler: Scotty

I wonder if the falling out between Kirk and Scotty is a ruse to clear the way to dispatch Scotty on a secret mission.

 

[throwback]

If you are going to use elements from the prime reality, at least get the elements right. Khan was a Sikh. He governed a region of territory in either Africa or Asia. Instead, we get a Caucasian. This s**t was tolerable in the past; it's less so now. And, now, if the info is correct, we have another date point for the Eugenics War, these wars occurred in the 1950s. (300 years before 2259.)

 

[Franklin]

Thanks for the confirmation, Lapis. I knew some of those shots reminded me of the Getty Center when first I saw it, but I couldn't find the right screencap of it.

Spoiler: The torpedoes

It's obvious that Marcus wanted to get rid of the 72 sleeping augments by stuffing them into torpedoes and hoping the Enterprise would have to fire them. Kind of weird, really. If the presence of those cryo tubes is that much of a secret, and he wants to get rid of them now that Khan's gone rogue, wouldn't there be a quieter and more dependable way to do it? Just have the tubes "malfunction." Vaporize them. Anything else.

Spoiler: Admiral Robocop and the Torpedoes

Hmmm. That does seem rather convoluted, if true. I just assumed that he needed some way to smuggle them aboard the Enterprise to retrieve later for some reason not yet revealed, and while cryotubes would be easily spotted, some new special torpedo wouldn't be questioned, except by Scotty apparently. I really liked the description of that scene and Scotty's protectiveness of the ship/crew and questioning of their mission, btw.

Spoiler: How to make really sweet lemonade

I don't think he wanted to just stash them there then send the Enterprise to Kronos and not think they could be used. The summary said Sulu had them aimed where Kirk was at one point.

I liked Scotty's reaction to the tubes coming on board, too. I think Kirk's reaction at the moment was appropriate for the situation, but a more mature and settled in Kirk would've stood by Scotty and demanded that those tubes either be scanned to make sure they're not a hazard or be taken off his ship. However, this Kirk is probably a little gun shy about rocking the boat right now, and he's also fixated on getting Pike's killer. Thing is, Scotty was right.

 

[thumbtack]

However, from what I have read, I feel that the alternate reality universe is not equaling or exceeding the prime reality universe in the story department.

Please stop telling us that the quality of a Star Trek movie is based, primarily, on which universe it is set in.

It is clear enough now you won't be getting your canon back.

 

[Mach5]

And, now, if the info is correct, we have another date point for the Eugenics War

Only DS9 one is canon.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And, now, if the info is correct, we have another date point for the Eugenics War, these wars occurred in the 1950s. (300 years before 2259.)

Not really. "300 years" is probably just a generalized figure tossed out at random.

It's not like a specific year is mentioned, is it? They only do that in 'Space Seed' and TWOK. If they give a year, then that's definitive. If it's just a round number of years, it's not. That's how I look at it, anyway.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

If you are going to use elements from the prime reality, at least get the elements right. Khan was a Sikh. He governed a region of territory in either Africa or Asia. Instead, we get a Caucasian. This s**t was tolerable in the past; it's less so now. And, now, if the info is correct, we have another date point for the Eugenics War, these wars occurred in the 1950s. (300 years before 2259.)

Remarkably, I'm not giving a damn about this. Despite Khan being one of my faves from the old show and movies, I won't be judging this movie on how closely it follows them.

It's not as if, for example, the character was ever credibly portrayed as a Sikh anyway.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ That actually makes a bit of sense, since Khan was never particularly religious anyway. So they really couldn't portray him as an authentic Sikh, because Khan doesn't care about anything but power. His name may be Sikh-derived, but that's it. He doesn't observe any Sikh traditions that we're aware of. In fact he seems to go out of his way to avoid them.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Spoiler: Admiral Robocop and the Torpedoes

Hmmm. That does seem rather convoluted, if true. I just assumed that he needed some way to smuggle them aboard the Enterprise to retrieve later for some reason not yet revealed, and while cryotubes would be easily spotted, some new special torpedo wouldn't be questioned, except by Scotty apparently. I really liked the description of that scene and Scotty's protectiveness of the ship/crew and questioning of their mission, btw.

Spoiler: Scotty

I wonder if the falling out between Kirk and Scotty is a ruse to clear the way to dispatch Scotty on a secret mission.

That's a good possibility given where Scotty ends up after that.

If you are going to use elements from the prime reality, at least get the elements right. Khan was a Sikh. He governed a region of territory in either Africa or Asia. Instead, we get a Caucasian. This s**t was tolerable in the past; it's less so now. And, now, if the info is correct, we have another date point for the Eugenics War, these wars occurred in the 1950s. (300 years before 2259.)

Khan was played by a Mexican man who didn't look remotely Sikh. His followers were originally multi-ethnic but became Aryan supermen by the time of TWoK. The precious canon can survive a tweak here and there every now and then.

Given his genetically engineered DNA, it's possible that Khan might not look anything like what his heritage would suggest anyway.

As far as the 300 years thing goes, people tend to just round it off when you get into bigger numbers like that. It doesn't have to mean precisely 300 years.