Kate Mulgrew's decision to not have a romance

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

And she would not have been sexually attracted to him without it potentially being true that he was seeking redemption. If he had been "screw those telepaths, I'll do what I want!" the whole episode AND spent just as much time with her I do not think there would have been any attraction. How could there be? Half the attraction was about his need to make things right and her ability to help him with that. The other half, probably the smarts and the looks. But just the smarts and the looks wouldn't have lit any fires.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Newkirk strangled Klink with his shoe laces in the last episode of Hogans Heroes.

What attracted Kathryn was that he made it clear that she was so amazing that he was willing to go against his corrupt government finally because she inspired him to be a better man by her example and a fantastic woman.

how hot would the Devore inspector have had to have been for Janeway to hand over her telepathic crew just so that he might kiss her a little.

Love is about sacrifice.

Lust is about possession.

Lying is about survival.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

how hot would the Devore inspector have had to have been for Janeway to hand over her telepathic crew just so that he might kiss her a little.

I think that question should read "how desperate would Janeway have had to have been.."

And of course she wouldn't have been because that would make her a sex starved narcissistic vampire. When she did want it to be all about her and all about the sex she took it to the holodeck and the only thing she handed over was her dignity.

Love is about sacrifice.

Lust is about possession.

Lying is about survival.

And Starfleet is about.. uhh.. well something noble that Janeway believes in like other people believe in God.

She did not love Kashyk and she was not willing to sacrifice anything.

She used her own lust for Kashyk to make sure she took a bit of possession of him as a means to save her crew.

And she lied her ass off for survival.

 

[Guy Gardener]

My position is she had no lust or love and she was lying completely.

It's possible that she forgot that she was lying after spending up all night trying to crack that wormhole, but one cup of coffee is all she should have needed to fix that.

 

[Nightdiamond]

If this is true about Janeway, then even in the advanced 24th century, nothing has changed.

Janeway had the hots for this guy--even the subject matter wasn't enough to put her off.

Diana Troi boinked (I mean really boinked ) another human who used his Betazed powers to manipulate others in negotiations. When she found out the truth, and she rejected him, but at first--it was all looks and power.

Janeway saw the worse, in the beginning before she saw the potential, so I would say his looks and charm made it easier for her to believe.

Janeway is human, but wer'e not used too seeing--particualry a woman captain--act like a female with desire and needs.

So the idea of Janeway falling for this guy, and maybe because a lot of this was looks and charm, a little shocking.

Would she had fallen for him if he looked like a Pakled?

I don't think someone with Janeway's wits would have fallen for it.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

My position is she had no lust or love and she was lying completely.

It's possible that she forgot that she was lying after spending up all night trying to crack that wormhole, but one cup of coffee is all she should have needed to fix that.

Well that puts her in a very intelligent light.

But what was that expression on her face at the end all about?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I don't think someone with Janeway's wits would have fallen for it.

Are you implying she might be shallow??

The pakled are a noble race!

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lxIL1WlxSQ[/yt]

They aren't all that ugly, if you made one intelligent, well spoken, powerful they would be fine, just a bit fat.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What was that expression on her face after kashyk lost all use to her?

That's the same bastard deathshead smug scowl that was hiding underneath her thesbianism for the first 7/8ths of the episode.

Kashyk was a charming monster, which is what I've always said about her too, she's a very charming monster.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The last minute of the episode.. I see exhaustion tinged with regret that it wasn't a very different story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=injd460GTWU#t=07m38s

(not embedded because link is to specific time in video)

 

[Guy Gardener]

I don't have my flash turned on.

Downloading youtube outright now and then is easier than my slow old pc being constantly hammered by exotic advertising.

What I remember is the sarcastic "I had to take some precautions, you understand?"

but after that was blurry in my minds eye.

Thankyou for the recap.

She was actually into him?

Well, if he was on her ship full time that would disqualify him as a lover.

But then again...

Kashyk was just out catching criminals and taking them to prison, which is exactly what Janeway was doing with the Maquis in the pilot, and comparing Auckland to a concentration camp is not overly extreme.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I don't have my flash turned on.

Downloading youtube outright now and then is easier than my slow old pc being constantly hammered by exotic advertising.

What I remember is the sarcastic "I had to take some precautions, you understand?"

but after that was blurry in my minds eye.

Thankyou for the recap.

She was actually into him?

Well, if he was on her ship full time that would disqualify him as a lover.

But then again...

Kashyk was just out catching criminals and taking them to prison, which is exactly what Janeway was doing with the Maquis in the pilot, and comparing Auckland to a concentration camp is not overly extreme.

Yes I was thinking, who knows if it was only prejudice that led to the telepath arrests? Maybe they were like an underground Psi-Corp and terrorized society.

But as to expressions at the end, it's all open to interpretation especially with Mahler booming away in the background. Here's the dialog:

KASHYK: To hell with protocol, Prax! Do you think either of us will benefit from having this failure on our records? As far as you're concerned this incident never occurred. Make sure your teams share that understanding. Well played, Captain. It seems I never did earn your trust.
JANEWAY: I had to take a few precautions. You understand.
KASHYK: Better than anyone.
JANEWAY: I never lied to you. My offer to take you with us was genuine, and it would still stand if you'd kept your part of the bargain.
KASHYK: For what it's worth you made a tempting offer. The Bridge is yours.

Kashyk leaves, fade in to Janeway looking exhausted and pained.

Kashyk was a charming monster, which is what I've always said about her too, she's a very charming monster.

I know you edited this but it was already my quote box when the phone rang. I am just so taken with the charming monster moniker.. it is very Gaga

And really I think one theme of Counterpoint was that Janeway and Kashyk were equals, in charm, smarts and the ability to play the game. You hardly see anyone else in the episode, it's a dueling duet.

I just had the thought.. if Kashyk had won what would have become of Janeway? I don't think he would have saved her for himself. I think it would have ended with her and the crew sent off to a camp and Kashyk sitting on the bridge of his own ship looking exhausted and regretful.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Kashyk had won?

Janeway would have liberated the concentration camp, toppled the bigoted government and brought peace to the entire sector.

Don't poke the bear.

 

[R. Star]

I dunno, that scene always struck me as... "I slept with a non-repentant Gestapo chief and my whole crew knows it."

And I'd say the later part of that is what she regrets more.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Maybe she was still selling the bit so that the ship wasn't scuttled and the crew was lobbed into a mass grave?

 

[JanewayRulz!]

My position is she had no lust or love and she was lying completely.

It's possible that she forgot that she was lying after spending up all night trying to crack that wormhole, but one cup of coffee is all she should have needed to fix that.

Well that puts her in a very intelligent light.

But what was that expression on her face at the end all about?

I think that expression was... "Damn... ANOTHER two shuttles lost!"

Your point about her looking exhausted is well put, since she was.

She was exhausted from playing the part of a "put upon traveler/alien" that allows herself to be seduced by not just a charming monster, but a repetent monster as well ... all the while trying to save not just the alien telepaths and her on telepaths but her entire ship & crew.

I also think she's disappointed... disappointed when she confirmed yet again that Santa Claus doesn't exist, the tooth fairy is a fable, and that Kayshyk couldn't find it within himself to turn COMPLETELY from his wicked ways despite her awesomeness.

He did turn away somewhat... he DIDN'T take her ship or her crew or even her own telepaths. But despite basking in the glow of the Janeway aura... he couldn't reform enough to meet her expectations.

JANEWAY: I never lied to you. My OFFER to take you was genuine and it would still stand, if YOU had kept your part of the bargain.


More interestingly... what would have happened if he HAD kept the bargain, and stayed with Voyager because of Janeway.

Methinks a certain warrior who sits to her left would be more than a little perturbed.

Kayshyk: The Bridge is yours.

I love this line... because to me it was hilarious.

Honey... it always WAS hers.

It doesn't matter whether she sits in the center seat or in that seat to the left.

It doesn't matter if she's awake, asleep, on the Delta Flyer or stranded on a planet.

The bridge, the ship the crew are ALWAYS her's, and sooner or later everyone who tries to come between her and that bridge discovers that simple fact.

 

[Guy Gardener]

He didn't take the ship because the full report of everything that happened, how he let everything slip through his fingers how he was fooled, would have gotten him demoted to janitor.

Or is that just something he made up (albeit true.) to explain his act of charity to his thuggy subordinate?

He was graceful in defeat.

If he had won would he have visited Janeway in prison?

"Your only way out of here Kathryn is if you marry me."

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I'm thinking he's been very amused all this time by her "offer" as he was under the impression she was completely in his trap and had nothing to offer. As to it being "tempting" I think she was tempting but giving up his respected life to become a refugee on a single ship fleeing everything he's known was not a part of the temptation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It was enough for Seven, Kes and Neelix.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

The Borg refugee, the Kazon refugee and the Talaxian war refugee.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Neelix was a Haarkonan refugee.

SERIOUSLY!!!

SERIOUSLY!!

Haven't they read Dune?