I'd agree with that too.
Star Trek: Axanar
- Thread starter Linnear
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Honestly, I find it difficult to believe that all, or even most, of the Federation ships other than the Enterprise were of pre-2233 design. Why would the entire available squadron at the heart of the Federation consist of quarter-century-old ships? (Unless they simply haven't been building new hulls for a couple of decades, for some reason, and Enterprise represents the first new construction in a long time. But why would that happen?)
ETA: Also, if they're in existence that long ago and hence part of the Prime timeline's Starfleet as well, why aren't we still using suitably-refit monster ships for the major actions?
ETA: Also, if they're in existence that long ago and hence part of the Prime timeline's Starfleet as well, why aren't we still using suitably-refit monster ships for the major actions?
That is a little tough to swallow. I personally wouldn't include anything that reflects the design sensibilities and ethos of Sub-Prime Trek. Just not a fan. But, it's your baby. Wish your production all the best. I do like that you are tipping the hat to FASA. They, Star Fleet Battles, and the Technical Manual were important in keeping TOS new during the 70's and 80's. Atleast for me.
On a tangent related to the Trek splintering of TOS Prime... I consider the battle with the Borg in FC to be where the Timelines diverge. I see ENT and, by several references to ENT, Trek 11 as being directly tied to Picard and the Borg interacting with Cochrane in Earth's future past.
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I'd agree with that too.
Since I think it's a given that you can't please everyone (true enough in real life, even more so here) the first goal should be to please yourselves. You obviously have excellent concepts and the ability to bring them to life. However, much we might collectively grumble and nitpick over minutiae, the bottom line is still telling a good story. So have at it, have fun and don't worry if your attention to detail doesn't quite match someone else's. This is your show and if it doesn't make you (collectively) happy it probably doesn't have much chance of making everyone else happy!
Except that's clearly not what the writers and producers intended.
Time paradoxes give me headache...lol
Again, just personal opinion here. I always felt that the NX-01 was named "Enterprise" at the request of Zephram Cohrane as a tribute to the folks who helped out with the first warp flight.
And that in the "original" timeline it was the "Dauntless". This would "explain" it being missing from the "Enterprise" models in Picards ready room or the pictures we saw in "TMP".
And that in the "original" timeline it was the "Dauntless". This would "explain" it being missing from the "Enterprise" models in Picards ready room or the pictures we saw in "TMP".
Linnear
Lieutenant Commander
A VERY interesting concept. I like it.
Apropos of nothing really, but in my book originality automatically earns points. Staying within continuity and canon matters infinitesimally less than being entertaining, moving, and thought provoking.
This is one of the reasons why I was intrigued by To Serve All My Days. I really don't care how it joins up with canon. The surprise ending alone was worth the investment of time watching it.
When watching STXI, in the first several seconds of the movie I decided that we were supposed to assume that the look of the prime timeline was being reimagined. That's fine; I don't care. It was pulled off magnificently, but that's all superficial anyway.
As someone who was seen several TOS episodes over a hundred times, and enjoyed them every time, I say: Go with whatever artistic vision of the Star Trek universe you have!
This is one of the reasons why I was intrigued by To Serve All My Days. I really don't care how it joins up with canon. The surprise ending alone was worth the investment of time watching it.
When watching STXI, in the first several seconds of the movie I decided that we were supposed to assume that the look of the prime timeline was being reimagined. That's fine; I don't care. It was pulled off magnificently, but that's all superficial anyway.
As someone who was seen several TOS episodes over a hundred times, and enjoyed them every time, I say: Go with whatever artistic vision of the Star Trek universe you have!
Not big on fan productions per se, but the ship designs here are fantasic. Good work.
I love the Ares' nacelles, especially the front glowing caps and nacelle shell detail... hate the glowing dish and the saucer hull's topside surface texture... way too TMP-ish... A couple of touches might be nice for what should be an older-generation starship: a "Cage"-style "pregnant anthill"-style bridge dome would be a nice touch, smoother saucer topside surface texturing, and maybe "Where No Man Has Gone Before" cheese-grater-style aft nacelle caps.
Sounds like a really interesting project.
Sounds like a really interesting project.
Catching up on some of the subsequent ideas, concepts and art in this thread...
According to "Whom Gods Destroy", IIRC, Kirk was a cadet at the Axanar Peace Mission. That mission and the Battle of Axanar were somehow joined by the way Kirk and Garth were talking. One must've followed the other closely, and I always assumed that the battle came first, the peace mission naturally followed a short time later, maybe a year later at the most. That's what I got out of "Whom Gods Destroy", anyway.
Kirk was a cadet at the peace mission, as stated in "Whom..." so placing the battle and peace mission twenty-plus years before TOS would mean Kirk enrolled in Starfleet Academy over twenty years before TOS; I suppose that's possible, although the frames of reference on Kirk's life seem a bit contradictory on that point. Over the years, I've had a hard time accepting that Kirk was only 34 years old in "The Deadly Years". That having been said, if Kirk was a lieutenant aboard the ill-fated U.S.S. Farragut 11 years before "Obsession", how long would his career have to be between the time he was a lieutenant at the Tycho IV incident and the time he was a cadet at the Axanar Peace Mission?
Depending on how you look at it, Kirk's career between Axanar and the time he assumed command of the Enterprise was either over twenty years or his ladder-climbing was spectacularly fast. So as a cadet, he was either in his twenties or he was a little kid. It also doesn't help matters that when Kirk blew the whistle on Finney aboard the U.S.S. Republic, supposedly in 2254, he was an ensign.
I'm not trying to derail the idea of an Axanar story. Just trying to weave through the weird contradictions we've been handed.
The idea of divergent canon is an interesting one, but I have a hard time seeing how the starships shown in the 2009 movie somehow evolved into "prime" TOS. The 2009 stuff all looks so TMPish. So the Axanar fan film makers have a real challenge there.
I suppose there is a way around all of this... if you take the shapes of modules and hull textures of the JJverse starships and blended these into TOS and TOS-derived designs, like maybe Matt Jefferies' early sketch of the recognizable Enterprise design, you might be onto something. I'd be conservative with the designs, though. Roddenberry smacked down Franz Joseph designs with his rule-making, so it's probably best to derive from existing designs.
How about a pre-"Cage" Miranda (Reliant), without the cheesy torpedo "roll bar"? Forbin came up with a great concept with his Minmus, which looks like a great Miranda ancestor. Here's another idea to explore: what if the Bonaventure mentioned in TAS "Time Trap" was actually a design ancestor of the Grissom/Oberth? What if the "real" Oberth was originally a stablemate prototype with the Bonaventure? If you extend the Bonaventure's saucer back so that the nacelle pylons go through the back end of the saucer, and you eliminate the Connie-style neck, it looks like it could be a "missing link". So there's another idea.
According to "Whom Gods Destroy", IIRC, Kirk was a cadet at the Axanar Peace Mission. That mission and the Battle of Axanar were somehow joined by the way Kirk and Garth were talking. One must've followed the other closely, and I always assumed that the battle came first, the peace mission naturally followed a short time later, maybe a year later at the most. That's what I got out of "Whom Gods Destroy", anyway.
Kirk was a cadet at the peace mission, as stated in "Whom..." so placing the battle and peace mission twenty-plus years before TOS would mean Kirk enrolled in Starfleet Academy over twenty years before TOS; I suppose that's possible, although the frames of reference on Kirk's life seem a bit contradictory on that point. Over the years, I've had a hard time accepting that Kirk was only 34 years old in "The Deadly Years". That having been said, if Kirk was a lieutenant aboard the ill-fated U.S.S. Farragut 11 years before "Obsession", how long would his career have to be between the time he was a lieutenant at the Tycho IV incident and the time he was a cadet at the Axanar Peace Mission?
Depending on how you look at it, Kirk's career between Axanar and the time he assumed command of the Enterprise was either over twenty years or his ladder-climbing was spectacularly fast. So as a cadet, he was either in his twenties or he was a little kid. It also doesn't help matters that when Kirk blew the whistle on Finney aboard the U.S.S. Republic, supposedly in 2254, he was an ensign.
I'm not trying to derail the idea of an Axanar story. Just trying to weave through the weird contradictions we've been handed.
The idea of divergent canon is an interesting one, but I have a hard time seeing how the starships shown in the 2009 movie somehow evolved into "prime" TOS. The 2009 stuff all looks so TMPish. So the Axanar fan film makers have a real challenge there.
I suppose there is a way around all of this... if you take the shapes of modules and hull textures of the JJverse starships and blended these into TOS and TOS-derived designs, like maybe Matt Jefferies' early sketch of the recognizable Enterprise design, you might be onto something. I'd be conservative with the designs, though. Roddenberry smacked down Franz Joseph designs with his rule-making, so it's probably best to derive from existing designs.
How about a pre-"Cage" Miranda (Reliant), without the cheesy torpedo "roll bar"? Forbin came up with a great concept with his Minmus, which looks like a great Miranda ancestor. Here's another idea to explore: what if the Bonaventure mentioned in TAS "Time Trap" was actually a design ancestor of the Grissom/Oberth? What if the "real" Oberth was originally a stablemate prototype with the Bonaventure? If you extend the Bonaventure's saucer back so that the nacelle pylons go through the back end of the saucer, and you eliminate the Connie-style neck, it looks like it could be a "missing link". So there's another idea.
Linnear
Lieutenant Commander
1) We defintely will not be a slave to canon, but try and weave it into what we are doing.
2) Our design aesthetic is NOT going backwards from "the Cage" (which I consider bad 50's sci-fi). And we aren't a slave to TOS either. We will try and make it all sensible, but like "Enterprise" or even JJverse, the simple fact is the look of the future has changed since 1966. You aren't going to make NEW Star Trek that is a slave to TOS design aesthetic. But, we do get very close.
Our bridge will be Phase II's bridge, with a new captain's chair and command console. No red paint (psudeo-cage) and a bunch of stuff changed. We nod to TOS but show this ship is different.
3) A few people have mentioned the deflector. As Tobias says, it isn't quiet so bright when you animate the ship. Plus, nothing says that we can't have a very different deflector. The whole idea of the USS Ares is that it is a purpose built ship of war.
4) Kirk was a "new-fledged cadet" at the Axanar Peace Mission in 2250 according to the official Star Trek chronology by Mike and Denise Okuda. But while it makes sense that the Peace Mission would be right after the battle, sometimes it takes years to finally settle a war. In 2245, when "Axanar" takes place, the Battle of Axanar will be decisive. But we haven't written the conclusion, as there are actually a few threads that run through it. Could the Battle be in 2245 and the Peace Mission start the next year and take a few years to finalize? Sure.
Either THAT or we set it in 2250 and then the Constitution Class is in service and we have to deal with THAT! Wouldn't they be in the war? And there were only 12. And none were lost in the war. So that causes a lot problems. I didn't want Garth to captain a Constitution Class ship.There are plenty of fan films with other Constitution class ships, (and bravo to ones like Ajax which don't use one!). I didn't want to be just another fan film with just another Captain of yet one more of the Constitution fleet. And we want the Constitution and the D-7 to be the dreadnaughts of the time. The arms race is which side gets theirs into service. That is a major piece of the story.
So we make an assumption that it takes a while to get to a final peace. It is a better choice for our story. And the story is pretty damn good according to everyone who has read it. A lot of Star Trek geeks giving feedback directly on our script, and Dave Galanter, who has written 5 Star Trek novels, is the story editor.
5) Also, we know that there are MANY things that don't make sense that are canon. There are many mistakes. In Fact in "Whom Gods Destroy" Kirk talks about the Battle of Axanar basically creating the Federation, and we know THAT wasn't true! So you have to take canon with a grain of salt.
As you can see, we have very strong views of what our story is and where we are going. I love hearing all the feedback. Thank you all.
Alec
2) Our design aesthetic is NOT going backwards from "the Cage" (which I consider bad 50's sci-fi). And we aren't a slave to TOS either. We will try and make it all sensible, but like "Enterprise" or even JJverse, the simple fact is the look of the future has changed since 1966. You aren't going to make NEW Star Trek that is a slave to TOS design aesthetic. But, we do get very close.
Our bridge will be Phase II's bridge, with a new captain's chair and command console. No red paint (psudeo-cage) and a bunch of stuff changed. We nod to TOS but show this ship is different.
3) A few people have mentioned the deflector. As Tobias says, it isn't quiet so bright when you animate the ship. Plus, nothing says that we can't have a very different deflector. The whole idea of the USS Ares is that it is a purpose built ship of war.
4) Kirk was a "new-fledged cadet" at the Axanar Peace Mission in 2250 according to the official Star Trek chronology by Mike and Denise Okuda. But while it makes sense that the Peace Mission would be right after the battle, sometimes it takes years to finally settle a war. In 2245, when "Axanar" takes place, the Battle of Axanar will be decisive. But we haven't written the conclusion, as there are actually a few threads that run through it. Could the Battle be in 2245 and the Peace Mission start the next year and take a few years to finalize? Sure.
Either THAT or we set it in 2250 and then the Constitution Class is in service and we have to deal with THAT! Wouldn't they be in the war? And there were only 12. And none were lost in the war. So that causes a lot problems. I didn't want Garth to captain a Constitution Class ship.There are plenty of fan films with other Constitution class ships, (and bravo to ones like Ajax which don't use one!). I didn't want to be just another fan film with just another Captain of yet one more of the Constitution fleet. And we want the Constitution and the D-7 to be the dreadnaughts of the time. The arms race is which side gets theirs into service. That is a major piece of the story.
So we make an assumption that it takes a while to get to a final peace. It is a better choice for our story. And the story is pretty damn good according to everyone who has read it. A lot of Star Trek geeks giving feedback directly on our script, and Dave Galanter, who has written 5 Star Trek novels, is the story editor.
5) Also, we know that there are MANY things that don't make sense that are canon. There are many mistakes. In Fact in "Whom Gods Destroy" Kirk talks about the Battle of Axanar basically creating the Federation, and we know THAT wasn't true! So you have to take canon with a grain of salt.
As you can see, we have very strong views of what our story is and where we are going. I love hearing all the feedback. Thank you all.
Alec
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I did originally have the "Cheese Grater" Nacelle Caps on the Nacelles in my 2D design. we decided to take them off. And I also did a version with the the "Cage-Style" Bridge Dome.
I went with revisions that Alec wanted since it is his vision of the time period and also we are not living in the 1960's so design style have also changed since that time.
I think as you see more of this project you will agree, we have some great people attached to the project.
Linnear
Lieutenant Commander
Here are the four Klingon ships from "Enterprise". We will be using some, or maybe all of them.
Klingon Early Bird of Prey
Klingon D4
Klingon D5
Klingon Raptor
There is no Klingon D-6, so we will be creating one.
Alec
Klingon Early Bird of Prey
Klingon D4
Klingon D5
Klingon Raptor
There is no Klingon D-6, so we will be creating one.
Alec
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Looks amazing! Well done! Can't wait to see this ship in action!
Which is consistent with the idea that the events of FC created a divergent timeline. You could even say that the work of the engineers that assisted Cochrane subtly influenced technological development. This further is supported by things like references to the Admiral's beagle and the presence of a ENT ship in the debris in Trek 11.
I'm a huge tech head but I also agree we shouldn't get hung up on the details - I'm just as interested that what could be a Patton-esque war film would also have a kickass story that these kickass designs and animation and costumes will support.
That said, the Ares is fantastic, and using the Kelvin should be just fine - potentially being an older water horse in the Four Years War, large and slow fodder for nimbler Klingon ships. The other JJ designs may give too much of an impression that this is the JJverse, so I would suggest that they be used sparingly and heavily mixed with other prime-esque designs.
So, unless it's a spoiler, would we be seeing actual representatives of the Axanar species? I would think this film would be less exploration-oriented, but the species seemed worth a look at after its appearance in ENT.
Mark
That said, the Ares is fantastic, and using the Kelvin should be just fine - potentially being an older water horse in the Four Years War, large and slow fodder for nimbler Klingon ships. The other JJ designs may give too much of an impression that this is the JJverse, so I would suggest that they be used sparingly and heavily mixed with other prime-esque designs.
So, unless it's a spoiler, would we be seeing actual representatives of the Axanar species? I would think this film would be less exploration-oriented, but the species seemed worth a look at after its appearance in ENT.
Mark
Linnear
Lieutenant Commander
I think we are moving away from using JJ designs besides the Kelvin. The other designs could be around at that time, but they also could be post-2233. So we are going to go with more traditional designs, but the Kelvin will be included.
And yes, we won't get stuck on the details. The STORY is the most important thing. Followed by strong acting, and with Tobias, we know we will have great effects.
No, no Axanarians. The Battle is above the planet, and so there is no planet-side action.
Alec
And yes, we won't get stuck on the details. The STORY is the most important thing. Followed by strong acting, and with Tobias, we know we will have great effects.
No, no Axanarians. The Battle is above the planet, and so there is no planet-side action.
Alec
Looking forward to this fan film now myself. Love the look of the Ares and don't mind the differences myself either. Will be following ya on Facebook as well. Can't wait to see a preview trailer either.
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