"the thinking man's Star Trek" - Why?

[Ryan8bit]

Characters like Worf, who had been pretty much 1-dimensional in TNG, suddenly became very interesting characters on that show.

What did Worf do on DS9 that he didn't do on TNG? His stories just repeated on DS9. Become dishonored, gain honor back, fall in love, loved one dies, sulks and considers a career change. There really wasn't that much difference.

DS9 is Star Trek with soap opera elements.

I always see people say this, but I don't understand it. I'd urge you to list just a few elements that make it that way that aren't already prominent in other Trek series.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

DS9 is Star Trek with soap opera elements.

I always see people say this, but I don't understand it. I'd urge you to list just a few elements that make it that way that aren't already prominent in other Trek series.

• Story arcs.
• Ensemble Cast.
• One main character pining after another, losing her, and then winning her.

 

[bbailey861]

I have never heard of DS9 being referred to as "the thinking man's Star Trek" - first time is here. Then again, other than some 'fun' episodes, I don't think that there was anything frivolous about DS 9 either. It gave you a lot to think about and the big serialized arc over several seasons added a lot of meat to the Star Trek universe.

 

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

DS9 is Star Trek with soap opera elements.

I always see people say this, but I don't understand it. I'd urge you to list just a few elements that make it that way that aren't already prominent in other Trek series.

• Story arcs.
• Ensemble Cast.
• One main character pining after another, losing her, and then winning her.

I think you might be confusing soap opera with life. Odo liked Kira (when hasn't that happened in real life? ), never had her to lose her so that's inaccurate, and then they finally got together (when hasn't that happened in real life or in other star trek series? ).

And what about the story arcs and ensemble cast is soap opera exactly? I'm curious.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Yes, exactly.

DS9 gets accused of being a soap opera because it has long running relationships rather than girl of the week stuff. Relationships that form, are thrilling, have huge problems, resolve.. just like real life. DS9 spends a lot more story time on the relationships than the other series but it's not soap opera, it's just doing well what Trek traditionally has sucked at.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Star Trek has been only intermittently intelligent. probably TOS still holds the record for the highest proportion of really thought provoking episodes. Of course the average gets dragged down by the Spocks Brains and space hippies but DS9 had the Ferengi comedies.

TNG was not astute so much as canned, with pat morals dished out on a silver platter like babyfood. I find its spoonfed character to be somewhat insulting. I prefer the more ambigous and messy DS9. None of the series was sophisticated, but TNG certainly didnt distinguish itself in that regars.

Smart Trek is still to be made. Next series, maybe.

There's subtext in TOS!?

To me TOS has the sophistication of one of those 80's cartoons that sit you down at the end and tell you the moral of the story.

Rose colored glasses to be sure. I think that TNG and DS9 presented as much subtext if not more than TOS.

Bingo. Since when has Star Trek had any subtext at all? The big distinction of DS9 was that it was messier and more complicated. None of the series were particularly nuanced, unless youre determined to see things that arent there.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

DS9 is Star Trek with soap opera elements.

I always see people say this, but I don't understand it. I'd urge you to list just a few elements that make it that way that aren't already prominent in other Trek series.

• Story arcs.
• Ensemble Cast.
• One main character pining after another, losing her, and then winning her.

The Wire, Game of Thrones and The Sopranos also have story arcs and an ensemble cast. Are those soap operas too?

As for the last element, that was a very minor part of the overall series. What about the Dominion War and Bajoran religion? Talk about cherry picking an argument!

 

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

Yes, exactly.

DS9 gets accused of being a soap opera because it has long running relationships rather than girl of the week stuff. Relationships that form, are thrilling, have huge problems, resolve.. just like real life. DS9 spends a lot more story time on the relationships than the other series but it's not soap opera, it's just doing well what Trek traditionally has sucked at.

I hadn't thought of it like that before, but you're right. That's true. They didn't do the seductive or innocently-in-puppy-love girl of the week thing (although some of those were good) that was done before. DS9 showed actual real relationships and how they, and the friendships, were formed and maintained over time.

EDIT: And to add to that, even the one person (Lwaxana Troi) that I can think of that tried to seduce someone (Odo) on DS9 ended up having that be a multiple season story. I loved it and I thought it was very thrilling. One of my favorite moments of the series was when Odo stood up and gave his speech on why he was marrying her. The fact that everything he said was true (despite the fact that she'd driven him up a wall) was what made it so memorable. That alone was a great story, and not at all soap.

Sometimes I think people that call things "soap opera" have never really watched soaps for any length of time. They are over the top with what they do, and it's not realistic at all. DS9 is far from that.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Temis, I think of Game of Thrones as a strategy soap opera. Nothing wrong with that.

And S/UF I too loved the Lwaxana stories in DS9.

Lwaxana (to Odo): On this station, you are the thin beige line between order and chaos.

Lwaxana is one of my favorite characters, so vulnerable under her persona as the charming seducer of life. And so often astute.

 

[Spock/Uhura Fan]

I don't think that about Game of Thrones, but at the same time, if we're looking at it from a strategy perspective, I can understand. I mean, who's ever really won a war because a red priestess gave birth to a tar-like black cloud?

Lwaxana's one of my favorite guest characters too. She's a lot of fun with a lot of substance underneath it.

 

[Orac]

Funny, I alway's thought TNG and it's spinoff's were "the thinking woman's Star Trek" with TOS being for "the thinking man".

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The question asked and answered was what are some elements, any elements, that DS9 has in common with [the stereotypical] soap opera and which are not prominent in other Star Trek series. Such elements are readily apparent. That doesn't make DS9 a soap opera, though. And even if it did, so what?

 

[Ryan8bit]

The question asked and answered was what are some elements, any elements, that DS9 has in common with [the stereotypical] soap opera and which are not prominent in other Star Trek series. Such elements are readily apparent.

No, they all exist in every other modern series (and some of the movies).

Arcs
TNG:
- Klingon arc, especially pertaining to Worf's honor
- Borg arc
- Q's judgment of humanity

VOY:
- Obviously getting home
- Those dealing with different species/villains such as the Kazon, Hirogen, Borg, etc.

ENT:
- Temporal Cold War
- Xindi and the Expanse
- Augments

Ensemble Cast
For each of the modern series, they all had one. Sure, there was always one character who got the shaft and some who had more story, but as it was in DS9 too.

Characters 'pining' after each other
Aside from what was already said about Odo never actually having Kira, several characters have had these moments in the other series.

TNG:
- Picard and Crusher
- Riker and Troi

VOY:
- Janeway and Chakotay
- Chakotay and Seven
- Kes and Neelix
(There's likely a few I'm missing here, I haven't watched Voyager through in some time)

ENT:
- Trip and T'Pol



The thing about soaps is that they're always open-ended, focus largely only on relationships and sparsely on plot, and appeal largely to a female demographic. Those are what I'd call the defining characteristics.

All the next gen series, despite having arcs, has often still worked with a singular plot and theme that stand alone in an episode. Relationships aren't always the focus, and they do have plots that go beyond that. And the demographic is probably more male than female.

If all of those criteria defined soap operas, they could easily apply to most drama TV shows, which is why they're apparent in all the later series and movies.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If all of those criteria defined soap operas, they could easily apply to most drama TV shows, which is why they're apparent in all the later series and movies.

Yeah, well, seems like I said this:

That doesn't make DS9 a soap opera, though.

But thanks for playing.

 

[Ryan8bit]

I know what you said. Those last paragraphs are not specifically a response to you, just the first ones where I debunk what you said.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I know what you said. Those last paragraphs are not specifically a response to you, just the first ones where I debunk what you said.

You didn't debunk what I said.

It's really clear and obvious where the hyperbolic criticism of referring to DS9 disparagingly as a soap is coming from, which was my whole point.

And as for the pining, I wasn't referring to Odo and Kira; I was referring to Julian and Dax.

 

[Ryan8bit]

I did debunk it. I asked KingDaniel to show me an aspect of DS9 that wasn't prominent in other Trek series that relates to being a soap opera. You gave me your examples and I showed how they are apparent in every other modern series.

As for Julian, he still never "had" Dax to lose her. Picard and Crusher had just as much pining, so much so that an entire episode was based around it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

By "lose her", I meant "be rejected by her", which I'll admit might have been badly expressed.

I did debunk it.

No.

 

[Ryan8bit]

We can go back and forth on this as much as you'd like, or you could, y'know actually provide some counterpoints.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm not really interested, because I think the accusation that DS9 is a soaper is hyperbolic. It's an exaggeration. My point—my only point—in this is simply that it's completely clear where people who levy the charge are coming from.