Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Trek

[Ian Keldon]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Think about this logically:

The world wakes up tomorrow to the announcement that Red China, Iran, N Korea and the Somalli warlords/pirates have all joined together to form a new international military and political alliance.

If you're the government of the US, how would YOU see that grouping? If you have brain cell one in functioning order, it's a threat. A MAJOR threat. Every last member of that alliance is known for two things: 1) belligerence and 2) being anti-West (American specifically).

Next thing you know, this new alliance has (among other things) managed to infiltrate General Dynamics and steal the specifications for the Seawolf class attack submarine.

Then a major European nation decides to abandon NATO and sign on with the new alliance...

Logically, now...how would the Western powers respond to all that?
Counter-espionage and external espionage ensue. Incidents mount, and next thing you know, a shooting war breaks out.

The problem is we (the readers) had been saying for years that we wanted the Federation to act like a real government. Now it is, and we don't like it apparently.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[shanejayell]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

But as a anology that doesn't really work. Because the 'Red China' in this case is actually run by a leader who's sympathetic to the Federation. And the other states are as busy competing against each other as they are plotting against the Federation. And the Gorn have never been all that hostile to the Feds either, really.

And the tech stealing blew up in it's face.

And the European nation ONLY agreed to leave. They haven't joined the new alliance and we don't know if they well.

Not that there isn't gonna be plot and counter plot between the Pact and Federation. Bjut it ALSO appears that being in the Pact may actually cause the members to be less antagonistic. Which may be good, ultimately.

 

[Sci]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Again, you're making the fundamental and enormous mistake of treating the Pact as an "it." The Pact is a "they" -- a loose affiliation of six nations with more than six distinct agendas within it. Yes, some factions within the Pact are scheming against the Federation, while others are not.

A fine distinction that matters little.

Example: Texas conspires to send agents into Mexico to stop drug traffic. They get caught. Who is Mexico going to go after for redress? The US, not Texas, because the US is the national government that is supposed to keep it's member states in line.

Except the Typhon Pact is not a sovereign state; the United States is.

A better comparison would be the Warsaw Pact, or BRICS. And yes, during the Cold War, the United States still treated individual countries like individual countries; it didn't expect the Warsaw Pact to act like a government. Same thing today with BRICS.

And it's not as if the Federation itself has never schemed against other nations.

Never said they didn't (at least in TOS days).

"The Pegasus." A Time to Kill. "In the Pale Moonlight." The Federation has schemed plenty just in the 24th Century.

They legitimately see the Federation as a threat to their security and autonomy. So of course they're going to try to undermine a nation they see as an imperialist threat, in the same way that the Federation has tried in the past to undermine hostile nations like the Romulans and Cardassians. Sometimes good guys and bad guys are just a matter of perspective.

Again, it isn't about motive, it's about the acts themselves. ANY government will react poorly to acts of espionage, sabotage, etc against it's interests regardless of motive.

Not necessarily. The United States has been the target of Israeli espionage without having an overtly negative reaction; hell, the Israeli Defense Forces attacked the USS Liberty in 1967, killing 34 Americans -- yet that didn't stop good U.S.-Israeli relations.

Things are more complicated than you're making them out to sound like.

Think about this logically:

The world wakes up tomorrow to the announcement that Red China, Iran, N Korea and the Somalli warlords/pirates have all joined together to form a new international military and political alliance.

There's a big problem with your analogy right off the bat: Somali pirates are just guys desperate for money, not leaders of a sovereign state. They cannot join any international alliance.

The second problem with your comparison is that the Typhon Pact is not solely composed of states that have been hostile to the Federation. Some, like the Tholians and Breen, have; others, like the Gorn, have been friendly; others have been apathetic, like the Kinshaya; others, like the Romulans, have been both enemy and ally, depending upon the situation; others, like the Tzenkethi, were hostile once but not anymore, and essentially just use the Federation as their boogeyman to blame things on for their local media.

That's why BRICS is a better comparison than your hypothetical -- BRICS includes countries with whom the United States is friendly (Brazil, India, and South America) in addition to countries with whom we're tense-but-peaceful-so-far rivals (China and Russia). BRICS would be an even better analogy if, say, Venezuela and Bhutan were to join -- Venezuela being a prime example of a Tzenkethi-like government in terms of, they don't like us and use us as their media boogeyman, but we're not on the brink of war with them or anything either; and Bhutan being a prime example of a Kinshaya-like country about which we don't give a shit and who do not give a shit about us.

Next thing you know, this new alliance has (among other things) managed to infiltrate General Dynamics and steal the specifications for the Seawolf class attack submarine.

You mean sort of the way we've been infiltrating Iran and screw with their perfectly-legal-under-the-Nuclear-Nonprofliferation-Treaty-to-which-Iran-is-a-party civilian nuclear program, by, amongst other things, assassinating their nuclear scientists?

That kind of infiltration?

Then a major European nation decides to abandon NATO and sign on with the new alliance...

NATO is an alliance, not a sovereign state. The Federation is a sovereign state, not an alliance. Your comparison would have to involve, like, Virginia seceding from the Union and allying with your Bushian Axis of Evil Alliance (BAEA).

Andor seceded from the Federation, but we do not know with whom they've allied themselves, if anyone. For all we know, Andor may in fact be a party to the Khitomer Alliance, even as it refuses to be a Federation world anymore. Or they may be completely neutral. We do not yet know.

Counter-espionage and external espionage ensue. Incidents mount, and next thing you know, a shooting war breaks out.

Right, 'cos that's exactly what happened when the Soviet-allied countries formed the Warsaw Pact in 1949, isn't it? We fought World War III.

ETA:

You also need to remember something else: How the United States would react today is not an accurate indicator of how the Federation would react. Remember, the United States today is a deeply neo-imperialistic hegemon. It's a giant planetary control freak, and it often feels threatened by things it should not (even as it ignores other problems it should not).

How a neo-imperialist hegemon reacts doesn't tell us how the Federation reacts because, whatever the Tzenkethi or Tholians may think, the Federation is neither imperialistic nor neo-imperialistic, and doesn't feel threatened just because a foreign nation demonstrates it is not a Federation puppet government. The Federation is a great deal less warlike than the United States; never forget that.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

shanejayell
The Typhon Pact was not shown to be aggressive (more emboldened/aggressive than its members, when they were on their own)? Really?:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=6014011&postcount=32

BTW, apparently, the andorians will join the typhon pact in the new titan novel - as per the blurbs.


Sci
I see you continue your habit of irrelevant hair-splitting to detract from the issues presented to you (none of your distinctions addresses the fundamental point presented to you):

The federation and the typhon pact are in a state of cold war, fueled by the typhon pact's aggressiveness.

And the federation is on the losing side - barely managing to score a few tactical victories.

 

[Mage]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

BTW, apparently, the andorians will join the typhon pact in the new titan novel - as per the blurbs.

Would you mind showing me in this blurb where it's stated that Andor will join the Tyhpon Pact? Or post the blurb where it does say that??

The Starship Titan continues on her outward voyage of discovery in this latest exciting novel. Though the Federation still reels from Andor's political decision that will forever affect the Federation, Captain William T. Riker and the crew of the USS Titan are carrying out Starfleet's renewed commitment to deep space exploration. While continuing to search the Beta Quadrant's unknown expanses for an ancient civilizations long-lost quick-terraforming technology – a potential boon to many Borg-ravaged worlds across the Federation and beyond – Titan's science specialists encounter the planet Ta'ith, home to the remnant of a once-great society that may hold the very secrets they seek. But this quest also takes Titan perilously close to the deadly Vela Pulsar, the galaxy's most prolific source of lethal radiation, potentially jeopardizing both Titan and what remains of the Ta'ithan civilization. Meanwhile, Riker finds himself on a collision course with the Federation Council and the Andorian government, both of which intend to deprive Titan of its Andorian crewmembers. And one of those Andorians – Lieutenant Pava Ek'Noor sh'Aqabaa – uncovers a terrible danger that has been hiding in plain sight for more than two centuries...

Taken from Memory Beta, this is the current status of Andor after PoD...

In 2382, Andor seceded from the Federation due to the ongoing reproductive crisis on the planet. However, normal diplomatic relations were maintained, and any Andorians serving in Starfleet were allowed to remain there if they chose.

NOWHERE is it stated that Andor has joined, or might join, the Typhon Pact.
Sure, it CAN still happen in Fallen Gods, but there are no blurbs or comments anywhere that this will happen.

And yes, I have seen that in the new novel the Federation and Andor both want all Andorian crewmembers returned home. All this says is that diplomatic relations might be getting worse. It does not imply that Andor is joining the Typhon Pact.

 

[Sci]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Sci
I see you continue your habit of irrelevant hair-splitting to detract from the issues presented to you

Oh, honey, if you want to go on a date with me, all you have to do is ask. I like Greek food, by the way.

(none of your distinctions addresses the fundamental point presented to you):

The federation and the typhon pact are in a state of cold war, fueled by the typhon pact's aggressiveness.

Except that's not the issue. The issues are threefold:

1. Whether or not the Typhon Pact is or can be treated like a single unified power. (That the Typhon Pact is not a single unified power, but instead is a collection of political actors with divergent, sometimes conflicting, agendas, whose final form is not cast in stone. For instance, now that a moderate government has taken power in the Holy Order of the Kinshaya after the entire galaxy saw Breen troops massacre Kinshaya civilians, how will the other Pact members treat the Breen? Those Breen forces acted in defiance of even the Kinshaya government they were supposed to be helping; are the Tzenkehti or Gorn going to retaliate against the Breen out of concern that they're going to try to dominate their governments, too?)

2. Whether or not the state of cold war necessarily equates to a simplistic dualism ("You're either with us or against us" mentality). (That the Federation's relationship with the Typhon Pact and its members needs not be -- and indeed, likely will not be -- one of simple dualistic antagonism. Amongst other things, we've now seen moderate government take power in on two Pact worlds, Romulus and Janalwa -- with the latter occuring after the entire galaxy saw Breen forces massacre Kinshaya civilians. This goes back to the first point -- that kind of thing could easily lead the other Pact members to move to marginalize the Breen in retaliation, thereby marginalizing a more antagonistic voice in the Pact.)

3. Whether or not the Khitomer Alliance/Typhon Pact cold war is likely to lead to a shooting war. (There's plenty of evidence to indicate that it will not -- among them being that neither side can really afford an all-out war; that the Pact's final form is yet unknown, because it could change quite a bit as internal dynamics play out; because cold war antagonism does not necessarily always lead to a shooting war.)

And the federation is on the losing side - barely managing to score a few tactical victories.

I have already explained why this is not true in the slightest, and why the final score as it stands right now is Federation 5, anti-Federation Typhon Pact factions 3.5.

It's certainly competitive, but the Federation isn't losing.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

"The Pegasus." A Time to Kill. "In the Pale Moonlight." The Federation has schemed plenty just in the 24th Century.

"The Pegasus" was clearly denounced as the work of rogue officers.

ITPM was when the Federation was in the middle of a shooting war for it's very survival (that is, after it had re-learned the lesson).

Prior to the DW, the "modern" Federation clearly and unequivocally denounced such tactics (even to it's detriment).

That's why BRICS is a better comparison than your hypothetical -- BRICS includes countries with whom the United States is friendly (Brazil, India, and South America) in addition to countries with whom we're tense-but-peaceful-so-far rivals (China and Russia). BRICS would be an even better analogy if, say, Venezuela and Bhutan were to join -- Venezuela being a prime example of a Tzenkethi-like government in terms of, they don't like us and use us as their media boogeyman, but we're not on the brink of war with them or anything either; and Bhutan being a prime example of a Kinshaya-like country about which we don't give a shit and who do not give a shit about us.

If you think for one moment we aren't at a minimum keeping a close eye on Venezuela, et al, you don't understand how gov'ts work.

You mean sort of the way we've been infiltrating Iran and screw with their perfectly-legal-under-the-Nuclear-Nonprofliferation-Treaty-to-which-Iran-is-a-party civilian nuclear program, by, amongst other things, assassinating their nuclear scientists?

That kind of infiltration?

Leaving aside the debate over the ethics of stopping Iran ( a proven threat) from developing WMD, yes, that is EXACTLY the sort of thing gov'ts do to protect their interests.

NATO is an alliance, not a sovereign state. The Federation is a sovereign state, not an alliance. Your comparison would have to involve, like, Virginia seceding from the Union and allying with your Bushian Axis of Evil Alliance (BAEA).

The Federation has characteristics of both. It is an alliance that acts as a sovereign state, much as the US did pre-1860s.

Counter-espionage and external espionage ensue. Incidents mount, and next thing you know, a shooting war breaks out.

Right, 'cos that's exactly what happened when the Soviet-allied countries formed the Warsaw Pact in 1949, isn't it? We fought World War III.

I did say else where "hot" OR "cold" war.

However, the liklihood of it becoming a "hot" war is ever present, and becomes greater the more acts of provocation are committed by both sides.

whatever the Tzenkethi or Tholians may think, the Federation is neither imperialistic nor neo-imperialistic, and doesn't feel threatened just because a foreign nation demonstrates it is not a Federation puppet government. The Federation is a great deal less warlike than the United States; never forget that.

I snipped your political rant to focus on the issue. The Federation through much of TNG did not properly execute the prime function of a sovereign power: to protect it's interests, including the interests of it's citizens.

After several generations of predominately peaceful relations with other powers, it had become soft and weak, as witnessed by Starfleet not even regularly engaging in military exercises, despite it's mandate to (among other things) protect the safety and security of the Federation and it's interests.

It became so aggression adverse, that it eventually signed a "peace treaty" with the Cardassians with no concern or regard for the Federation citizens' lives and property that it summarily gave away to try to buy peace from an openly hostile power, and refused to use it's military assets to protect them from those same Cardassians who never bothered to honor the treaty in the first place.

Compounding the problem, it in turn branded the very people it refused to protect "criminals" for daring to do for themselves what their government refused to do (act in their defense).

 

[Christopher]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

I'll never understand why people think that pointing out that the Typhon Pact is a threat somehow proves their argument that it's as bad as the Dominion or the Yuuzhan Vong or some other unstoppable black-hat evil. That's forgetting how Star Trek has historically portrayed hostile nations. The first "big bad" enemy we met in ST were the Romulans, and right in their very first episode, we saw that their number included wise, sympathetic characters who disapproved of the belligerence of their government. Then came the Klingons, and while they were generally portrayed as one-dimensional baddies, in "Day of the Dove" we met a sympathetic Klingon in Mara and learned something about the Klingons' point of view and why they feel they need to expand to survive. The Gorn started out hostile but then we learned they were simply defending themselves. Subsequent Trek series gave us plenty of episodes that showed members of antagonistic races like the Romulans, Cardassians, Kazon, and Hirogen in sympathetic lights, or that established the existence of competing factions within rival nations, including factions that were sympathetic to the Federation's values and goals.

The approach to the Typhon Pact is no different from the way Star Trek has traditionally handled its "villains." Yes, they are a political rival and a threat, but that does not make them irredeemably evil or impossible to make peace with. Star Trek is not a series about war and hate, most of the time. It's a series where conflict is usually resolved or averted through intelligence and understanding rather than weapons, where fear of the Other is frequently a mistake to be overcome, where there's always some good to be found among the "bad guys."

Of course the Typhon Pact is a threat. That's the whole idea -- to give the heroes a new challenge now that most of the enemies of the past have gone away or become allies. But the very fact that so many past enemies have become allies should be a reminder of how Star Trek usually handles its antagonists -- not as intractable monsters, but simply as other people with their own positive qualities and ambiguities, people whose disputes with the Federation can potentially be overcome through talk and understanding rather than brute force. The Pact was created to be ambiguous; indeed, with so many factions and agendas within it, it's by far the most ambiguous adversary the Federation has ever faced. And that puts it in the tradition of "Balance of Terror" and "Arena" and "Day of the Dove" and all those other classic episodes that make us question simplistic assumptions about good guys and bad guys.

 

[Sci]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

"The Pegasus." A Time to Kill. "In the Pale Moonlight." The Federation has schemed plenty just in the 24th Century.

"The Pegasus" was clearly denounced as the work of rogue officers.

The work of "rogue officers" who had to have the support and efforts of dozens upon dozens, if not more, people. Let's face it -- Pressman was "rogue" in the same sense that Iran-Contra was "rogue." It wasn't just one or two guys breaking the law in the basement, it was institutional.

ITPM was when the Federation was in the middle of a shooting war for it's very survival (that is, after it had re-learned the lesson).

So what? It's still the Federation scheming against other cultures in the 24th Century.

That's why BRICS is a better comparison than your hypothetical -- BRICS includes countries with whom the United States is friendly (Brazil, India, and South America) in addition to countries with whom we're tense-but-peaceful-so-far rivals (China and Russia). BRICS would be an even better analogy if, say, Venezuela and Bhutan were to join -- Venezuela being a prime example of a Tzenkethi-like government in terms of, they don't like us and use us as their media boogeyman, but we're not on the brink of war with them or anything either; and Bhutan being a prime example of a Kinshaya-like country about which we don't give a shit and who do not give a shit about us.

If you think for one moment we aren't at a minimum keeping a close eye on Venezuela, et al, you don't understand how gov'ts work.

You have monumentally missed the point. Both points, in fact.

The smaller point being: I did not say we're not "keeping a close eye" on Venezuela. I said that Venezuela is akin to the Tzenkethi: The Venezuelan government hates us and likes to use the U.S. as its boogeyman to blame random things on, but we're nowhere near going to war with one-another. It's tense, but it's not violent.

The larger point being: The Typhon Pact is not known for being uniformly anti-Federation. It has a mixture of states, some of whom are violently hostile (the Breen and the Tholians), some of whom are rhetorically hostile but not actually going to start a war any time soon (the Tzenkethi), some of whom have gone back and forth (the Romulans), some of whom don't give a shit (the Kinshaya), and some of whom have historically been friendly (the Gorn). Thus, your analogy does not work, because it doesn't incorporate the variety of viewpoints in its Typhon Pact counterpart necessary to be an accurate comparison.

Leaving aside the debate over the ethics of stopping Iran ( a proven threat)

Bear in mind that in the last ten years, Iran has seen two of its neighbors invaded and occupied by the United States, on both sides, in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is literally surrounded.

Who's threatening whom, again?

from developing WMD,

There is no evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, only evidence that it's attempting to develop nuclear energy -- which is legal under the Nonproliferation Treaty to which Iran is a signatory. Indeed, the U.S. intelligence community has continually declined to conclude that Iran is developing nuclear weapons.

yes, that is EXACTLY the sort of thing gov'ts do to protect their interests.

Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes not. Let's not sit here and pretend all governments are as uniformly aggressive as you're claiming, or that they all belong to the Realism school of international relations.

Mind you, you still missed my point: That sometimes neither side can claim to hold the moral high ground in its actions, and both sides have in fact escalated the situation and acted like aggressors.

NATO is an alliance, not a sovereign state. The Federation is a sovereign state, not an alliance. Your comparison would have to involve, like, Virginia seceding from the Union and allying with your Bushian Axis of Evil Alliance (BAEA).

The Federation has characteristics of both. It is an alliance that acts as a sovereign state, much as the US did pre-1860s.

Except, bullshit. The United States between the adoption of the Constitution and the Civil War was not an "alliance" that acted as a sovereign state -- it was a sovereign state. The secretaries-general of alliances don't threaten to invade member states when they disagree with an alliance's decision the way President Jackson threatened to send troops to North Carolina during the Nullification Crisis.

Further, alliances don't maintain their own militaries (Starfleet) who answer to democratically-elected presidents and legislatures (Federation President and Council); nor can an alliance's secretary-general declare martial law on an alliance member's territory and occupy it the way the Federation President can on a Federation world and send in Starfleet; nor can an alliance control its members' foreign policy the way we've seen the Federation President and Council control foreign policy and declare war; nor can an alliance make binding law, the way the Federation Council can; nor do alliances maintain their own court systems, or grand juries, or Supreme Courts with ultimate power of judicial review; etc., etc., etc.

The Federation is a sovereign state. It is simply one which grants more autonomy to its constituent polities than modern sovereign states, as a function of its sheer size and vastness.

Right, 'cos that's exactly what happened when the Soviet-allied countries formed the Warsaw Pact in 1949, isn't it? We fought World War III.

I did say else where "hot" OR "cold" war.

However, the liklihood of it becoming a "hot" war is ever present, and becomes greater the more acts of provocation are committed by both sides.

See, this is the problem. You're using the word "likelihood," but "likelihood" is a specific type of possibility: Something that is most probably going to happen.

But a shooting war is not a likelihood. It is a possibility, not a likelihood. You're falling into a militaristic, war-is-probably-inevitable mindset and failing to recognize that violence is a choice, not something you just fall into.

 

[scnj]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

I'll never understand why people think that pointing out that the Typhon Pact is a threat somehow proves their argument that it's as bad as the Dominion or the Yuuzhan Vong or some other unstoppable black-hat evil. That's forgetting how Star Trek has historically portrayed hostile nations. The first "big bad" enemy we met in ST were the Romulans, and right in their very first episode, we saw that their number included wise, sympathetic characters who disapproved of the belligerence of their government. Then came the Klingons, and while they were generally portrayed as one-dimensional baddies, in "Day of the Dove" we met a sympathetic Klingon in Mara and learned something about the Klingons' point of view and why they feel they need to expand to survive. The Gorn started out hostile but then we learned they were simply defending themselves. Subsequent Trek series gave us plenty of episodes that showed members of antagonistic races like the Romulans, Cardassians, Kazon, and Hirogen in sympathetic lights, or that established the existence of competing factions within rival nations, including factions that were sympathetic to the Federation's values and goals.

I'm not disagreeing with any of the points made about the Typhon Pact, but the Yuuzhan Vong were far from unified. Yes, they were a single species, but they were divided into castes, each with their own agendas in the war. Plus, there were individuals who were not portrayed as evil like Nen Yim and, after a certain point, Harrar.

 

[Patrick O'Brien]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Dude, seriously, you are missing out. I hated Voyager too, but Kirsten Beyer's Voyager novels are *EXACTLY* what you have been looking for. Children of the Storm is the best optimistic, exploration-centered, ideals-of-the-Federation YAY! novel published in years.

Full Circle is dark and astropolitical, but that gets them launched back into the Delta Quadrant, and starting at Unworthy you will find what you want.

Give them a shot, I'm serious. You'll be blown away.

In case no one's told you, for example, Janeway is dead. They look pretty different from the TV show.

Well said Thrawn. I am not a huge Voyager fan, but they last few books are must reads for any Trek fan. Children of the Storm, was awesome! Kristen Beyer is doing a great job with that series

 

[Christopher]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

I'm not disagreeing with any of the points made about the Typhon Pact, but the Yuuzhan Vong were far from unified. Yes, they were a single species, but they were divided into castes, each with their own agendas in the war.

Still, it was an actual war, which is what you'd expect from a series with "Wars" in its title. Star Trek usually focuses less on war with its adversaries and more on averting war, or dealing with cold-war tensions and diplomatic crises.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

BTW, apparently, the andorians will join the typhon pact in the new titan novel - as per the blurbs.

Would you mind showing me in this blurb where it's stated that Andor will join the Tyhpon Pact? Or post the blurb where it does say that??
[...]

NOWHERE is it stated that Andor has joined, or might join, the Typhon Pact.
Sure, it CAN still happen in Fallen Gods, but there are no blurbs or comments anywhere that this will happen.

And yes, I have seen that in the new novel the Federation and Andor both want all Andorian crewmembers returned home. All this says is that diplomatic relations might be getting worse. It does not imply that Andor is joining the Typhon Pact.

Here you go:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=149667&highlight=titan+fallen+gods

Relevant part of the interview with the writer:
"Fallen Gods explores the devastating effect that Andor’s surprise decision to join the Typhon Pact is having on Lieutenant Pava and the other Andorian members of Will Riker’s crew"

Sci
I see you continue your habit of irrelevant hair-splitting to detract from the issues presented to you

Oh, honey, if you want to go on a date with me, all you have to do is ask. I like Greek food, by the way.

You appear to have misunderstood: I wasn't complimenting you, Sci.

(none of your distinctions addresses the fundamental point presented to you):

The federation and the typhon pact are in a state of cold war, fueled by the typhon pact's aggressiveness.

Except that's not the issue. The issues are threefold:

1. Whether or not the Typhon Pact is or can be treated like a single unified power. (That the Typhon Pact is not a single unified power, but instead is a collection of political actors with divergent, sometimes conflicting, agendas, whose final form is not cast in stone. For instance, now that a moderate government has taken power in the Holy Order of the Kinshaya after the entire galaxy saw Breen troops massacre Kinshaya civilians, how will the other Pact members treat the Breen? Those Breen forces acted in defiance of even the Kinshaya government they were supposed to be helping; are the Tzenkehti or Gorn going to retaliate against the Breen out of concern that they're going to try to dominate their governments, too?)

2. Whether or not the state of cold war necessarily equates to a simplistic dualism ("You're either with us or against us" mentality). (That the Federation's relationship with the Typhon Pact and its members needs not be -- and indeed, likely will not be -- one of simple dualistic antagonism. Amongst other things, we've now seen moderate government take power in on two Pact worlds, Romulus and Janalwa -- with the latter occuring after the entire galaxy saw Breen forces massacre Kinshaya civilians. This goes back to the first point -- that kind of thing could easily lead the other Pact members to move to marginalize the Breen in retaliation, thereby marginalizing a more antagonistic voice in the Pact.)

3. Whether or not the Khitomer Alliance/Typhon Pact cold war is likely to lead to a shooting war. (There's plenty of evidence to indicate that it will not -- among them being that neither side can really afford an all-out war; that the Pact's final form is yet unknown, because it could change quite a bit as internal dynamics play out; because cold war antagonism does not necessarily always lead to a shooting war.)

I'm talking about the issues raised by the post which started the thread, not by the issues you're willing to discuss, AKA:

The typhon pact aggressiveness:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...1&postcount=32
and the ongoing state of cold war.

And in cold war, much like in any war, the two sides are enemies - with little or no ambiguity involved.

Also - violence is a choice?
Yes, if the other side is interested in peace.
No, if the other side has little interest in peace - as Neville Chamberlain found out the hard way.

And the federation is on the losing side - barely managing to score a few tactical victories.

I have already explained why this is not true in the slightest, and why the final score as it stands right now is Federation 5, anti-Federation Typhon Pact factions 3.5.

It's certainly competitive, but the Federation isn't losing.

Apropos that score - it rests on a whole bunch of improbable assumptions - wishful thinking.

ZSG alone states directly the federation's precarious situation - and that was before PoD.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

I'll never understand why people think that pointing out that the Typhon Pact is a threat somehow proves their argument that it's as bad as the Dominion or the Yuuzhan Vong or some other unstoppable black-hat evil. That's forgetting how Star Trek has historically portrayed hostile nations. The first "big bad" enemy we met in ST were the Romulans, and right in their very first episode, we saw that their number included wise, sympathetic characters who disapproved of the belligerence of their government. Then came the Klingons, and while they were generally portrayed as one-dimensional baddies, in "Day of the Dove" we met a sympathetic Klingon in Mara and learned something about the Klingons' point of view and why they feel they need to expand to survive. The Gorn started out hostile but then we learned they were simply defending themselves. Subsequent Trek series gave us plenty of episodes that showed members of antagonistic races like the Romulans, Cardassians, Kazon, and Hirogen in sympathetic lights, or that established the existence of competing factions within rival nations, including factions that were sympathetic to the Federation's values and goals.

The approach to the Typhon Pact is no different from the way Star Trek has traditionally handled its "villains." Yes, they are a political rival and a threat, but that does not make them irredeemably evil or impossible to make peace with. Star Trek is not a series about war and hate, most of the time. It's a series where conflict is usually resolved or averted through intelligence and understanding rather than weapons, where fear of the Other is frequently a mistake to be overcome, where there's always some good to be found among the "bad guys."

Of course the Typhon Pact is a threat. That's the whole idea -- to give the heroes a new challenge now that most of the enemies of the past have gone away or become allies. But the very fact that so many past enemies have become allies should be a reminder of how Star Trek usually handles its antagonists -- not as intractable monsters, but simply as other people with their own positive qualities and ambiguities, people whose disputes with the Federation can potentially be overcome through talk and understanding rather than brute force. The Pact was created to be ambiguous; indeed, with so many factions and agendas within it, it's by far the most ambiguous adversary the Federation has ever faced. And that puts it in the tradition of "Balance of Terror" and "Arena" and "Day of the Dove" and all those other classic episodes that make us question simplistic assumptions about good guys and bad guys.

No one is calling the TP "black hats". We're just pointing out that they're a threat, and the Federation (finally acting as a government SHOULD) is taking steps to counter the threat.

The problem with that is that if the wrong things happen at the wrong times, it can get ugly quickly.

 

[Ian Keldon]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Bear in mind that in the last ten years, Iran has seen two of its neighbors invaded and occupied by the United States, on both sides, in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is literally surrounded.

Who's threatening whom, again?

Saying Iran is not a threat pretty much proves that you haven't been paying attention to the last 30 years of history.

Iran has been a state sponsor of terrorism since the 79 revolution. It has tried to interdict the free flow of resources through the region at least once.

And it's current head of state is a fanatical Islamic Holocaust denier.

There is no evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, only evidence that it's attempting to develop nuclear energy -- which is legal under the Nonproliferation Treaty to which Iran is a signatory.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ce-of-iran-s-nuclear-weapons-program-1.393823 (citing IAEA evidence that they aree indeed developing the bomb)

moving on...

Sometimes, yeah. Sometimes not. Let's not sit here and pretend all governments are as uniformly aggressive as you're claiming, or that they all belong to the Realism school of international relations.

Just the smart ones.

Mind you, you still missed my point: That sometimes neither side can claim to hold the moral high ground in its actions, and both sides have in fact escalated the situation and acted like aggressors.

"Claiming the moral high ground" can get you killed in international relations.

Except, bullshit. The United States between the adoption of the Constitution and the Civil War was not an "alliance" that acted as a sovereign state -- it was a sovereign state.

It was a sovereign state for international purposes, but an alliance of sovereign states for internal purposes. At least until King Lincoln the First took over.

The secretaries-general of alliances don't threaten to invade member states when they disagree with an alliance's decision the way President Jackson threatened to send troops to North Carolina during the Nullification Crisis.

That was because N Carolina tried to "have it both ways". It didn't want to use the secession option, but didn't want to have to enforce certain laws.

Further, alliances don't maintain their own militaries (Starfleet) who answer to democratically-elected presidents and legislatures (Federation President and Council); nor can an alliance's secretary-general declare martial law on an alliance member's territory and occupy it the way the Federation President can on a Federation world and send in Starfleet; nor can an alliance control its members' foreign policy the way we've seen the Federation President and Council control foreign policy and declare war; nor can an alliance make binding law, the way the Federation Council can; nor do alliances maintain their own court systems, or grand juries, or Supreme Courts with ultimate power of judicial review; etc., etc., etc.

Then all those points about member worlds maintaining their own defense forces (such as Vulcan's) and maintaining sovereignty about their own internal affairs means nothing?

The Federation is a sovereign state. It is simply one which grants more autonomy to its constituent polities than modern sovereign states, as a function of its sheer size and vastness.

Like the pre-CW US, it is a state with characteristics of BOTH an alliance and a sovereign state in its own right.

You're falling into a militaristic, war-is-probably-inevitable mindset and failing to recognize that violence is a choice, not something you just fall into.

Ever read any Tom Clancy? He routinely shows how even minor events can snowball out of control VERY quickly and lead to very dark places.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

^Star Trek isn't Tom Clancy. It's a franchise built around optimism and morality plays, and claiming the moral high ground usually turns out to be the right choice in its stories.

 

[Mike Winters]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Greetings all, been away from this board, but not Trek Lit for a quite some time. Nice to see some of the "old guard" is still around.

First, as stated on many posts in this thread. There is no comparison between the Yuuzhon Vong story lines and the Typhon Pact. One series was designed to be a major game changer and majorly shake up the status quo. It was to revamp the entire landscape of the galaxy in terms of terms of politics, people, etc. If anything, the NJO series would best be likened to the TNG relaunch novels (with the repeated Borg focus) up through Destiny. People died, worlds were lost (FOR GOD SAKES THEY ATE PLUTO!!!).

The only similarity is that all the old enemies were pretty much gone (peace was made for the Feds with just about everyone and the Borg were gone, and in SW, the New Republic had made peace with the empire) for the good guys so we need something to keep them busy.

How is the Typhon Pact really different than all the games of one upmanship between the Federation and the Klingons/Romulans in the past. The main difference that I can see is that a group of planetary governments realized that they had no way to stand up to the federation individually so they banded together.

I think this makes for a very interesting scenario. We are no longer having to deal with the fate of the universe in every novel. We don't even have to deal with the fate of the Federation. I had grown so tired of the Borg being in every novel that I was so relieved that they were gone. The Typhon Pact novels are essentially about the status quo.

This is what Star Trek has been doing for decades in its story telling when dealing with a "hostile" nation. Hey the Romulans have this new cloaking device. Lets send someone in and steal it so we can study it. The Federation has developed a way to detect our ships while cloaked. Lets send someone in and find out how they do it. The Federation and the Klingons are vying for the same planet. Let's send someone in to sabotage the other sides bid...

I think what this will come down to, just as it always has with Trek Lit, is how well the author(s) can write a good story. There will be some hits and some misses... just as there always have been. Even within the same authors there will be hits and misses. Look at DRGIII's Crucible Trilogy. I absolutely loved the McCoy installement, it was one of the best novels I have ever read. Yet two books later, Kirk was so weak. Still can't even answer to myself if the Kirk novel was weak because of the novel, or just in comparison to the McCoy installment.

I never thought I would be that interested in a novel about the Department of Temporal Investigations. I can't wait to read the next novel because of how strong the first one was...

Mike

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

NOWHERE is it stated that Andor has joined, or might join, the Typhon Pact.
Sure, it CAN still happen in Fallen Gods, but there are no blurbs or comments anywhere that this will happen.

And yes, I have seen that in the new novel the Federation and Andor both want all Andorian crewmembers returned home. All this says is that diplomatic relations might be getting worse. It does not imply that Andor is joining the Typhon Pact.

I find it very difficult to believe that Andor would join the Typhon Pact, if only for the fact that the Federation would be well within its rights to discourage this. Why should the Federation allow a world that is well within its own area of space - even though Andor is no longer a member of the Federation, it is still located in Federation space - to join an enemy power? The security risks alone would be off the scale. Plus there'd be movements of troops, ships and supplies that the Pact would surely be making to Andor, and which the Federation would be entitled to block (like how DS9 mined the entrance to the Bajoran wormhole to block Dominion troop movements into and out of Cardassia).

An analogy would be if, during the height of the Cold War, one of the American states joined the Soviet Union. There'd be no way in hell that Washington would have allowed that.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

The Federation is not the United States. I wish people would stop using what the United States would or would not do as an example of what they think the Federation should or should not do.

And if Andor has indeed joined the Typhon Pact, I'm sure Michael A. Martin (the author of Fallen Gods) and everyone else involved in that storyline have already spent far more time thinking about how and why it would have been allowed, as well as the ramifications of it, than any of us have. So my advice is to relax and just read the book when it comes out, and then decide whether or not you like how the storyline has developed. Basically: keep an open mind.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

There is no comparison between the Yuuzhon Vong story lines and the Typhon Pact. One series was designed to be a major game changer and majorly shake up the status quo. It was to revamp the entire landscape of the galaxy in terms of terms of politics, people, etc. If anything, the NJO series would best be likened to the TNG relaunch novels (with the repeated Borg focus) up through Destiny. People died, worlds were lost (FOR GOD SAKES THEY ATE PLUTO!!!).

That's a good point. Destiny was the game-changing storyline that upset the chessboard. The emergence of the Typhon Pact is the aftermath of that, the setting up of the new chessboard.