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I don't think STV is that terrible

Star Trek The Motionless Picture could have been done in a one hour television show. It was long agonizing momments of the audience staring at a screen watching actors stare at a screen. I don't care how good the effects were, eye candy can only carry a movie so far. Every now and then, something needs to happen on screen, and STV was at least paced to keep the plot moving.
For me, slow/medium pace does not a bad movie make. Where you see long "agonising" moments, I feel captivated and engrossed by the wonderful spectacle. Where you see nothing happening on screen, I see an incredible science fiction film unfolding in the most spectacular way.


then why the need for characters? You could just watch special effects devoid of character or story, and listen to the great score.

Yes TMP had great effects, but those effects became the story in the second half of the film. It's a very padded movie.
You could make the "need for characters" comment about any number of films - but since I feel the characterisation and story in TMP is perfect, and combines such with the spectacular effects and stunning score, your statement is meaningless and holds no relevance for me.

I don't feel the movie is padded, nor do I feel the FX "become the story". Not at all.
 
You could make the "need for characters" comment about any number of films - but since I feel the characterisation and story in TMP is perfect, and combines such with the spectacular effects and stunning score, your statement is meaningless and holds no relevance for me.

I don't feel the movie is padded, nor do I feel the FX "become the story". Not at all.

First, as I have said in other post about other post, I don't fault you for having this opinion. We are talking about Star Trek and you are free to have any opinion you wish. So there is nothing personal in my comments.

The basic story of ST:TMP was sound, as it attempted to portray Kirk's desire and need to be relevant, to be back in command. That is part of the Kirk persona and we all understand that. But they screwed it up with the useless confrontation between he and Decker without really explaining why Decker so resented him, combined with attempts to make Kirk appear deficient, and a V'Ger story which could have been done in the same amount of time it took to tell the story as seen in the episode "The Doomsday Machine".

No one goes to see a movie just to listen to the music, as a music score is used to enhance the story, not carry either the story or a movie. The same is true of special effects. Any movie which is forced to rely on the special effects to carry it isn't an effective movie, and that was one fault of ST:TMP.

Long segments where the actors have nothing to do except stare at where the effects are later going to be placed isn't beautiful, it is boring.
 
You could make the "need for characters" comment about any number of films - but since I feel the characterisation and story in TMP is perfect, and combines such with the spectacular effects and stunning score, your statement is meaningless and holds no relevance for me.

I don't feel the movie is padded, nor do I feel the FX "become the story". Not at all.

First, as I have said in other post about other post, I don't fault you for having this opinion. We are talking about Star Trek and you are free to have any opinion you wish. So there is nothing personal in my comments.

The basic story of ST:TMP was sound, as it attempted to portray Kirk's desire and need to be relevant, to be back in command. That is part of the Kirk persona and we all understand that. But they screwed it up with the useless confrontation between he and Decker without really explaining why Decker so resented him, combined with attempts to make Kirk appear deficient, and a V'Ger story which could have been done in the same amount of time it took to tell the story as seen in the episode "The Doomsday Machine".

No one goes to see a movie just to listen to the music, as a music score is used to enhance the story, not carry either the story or a movie. The same is true of special effects. Any movie which is forced to rely on the special effects to carry it isn't an effective movie, and that was one fault of ST:TMP.

Long segments where the actors have nothing to do except stare at where the effects are later going to be placed isn't beautiful, it is boring.
Nothing taken personally, Tina, and ditto for me! This is the Trek BBS after all!

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. As I've already stated, I don't believe TMP is carried by or relies on the FX and/or score, so for me, the very premiss of your argument is faulty.

Oh, it's not remotely boring and it is beautiful. :p
 
The crime of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was never that it was a terrible movie. It's crime was worse: being resoundingly mediocre.

Shatner's direction is mostly fine, but he does get awful performances out of a few actors (Cynthia Gouw is awful; in the many deleted scenes, she's worse than awful). The visual effects are the worst of any movie in the series. The cinematography is, for the most part, unmemorable. The script isn't quite a disaster, but it's close. The previous film made light of the crew being a out of their element in the mid-1980s. This one derives it's "jokes" by using the crew (mainly, the supporting players) for a series of pratfalls. Thematically, the film lacks any kind of unity, and in terms of narrative, the film is a bit of a retread of "The Way to Eden," hardly the most memorable of Star Trek episodes.

It has a terrific score, though. I'm happy to have the 2-disc version of Goldsmith's work on CD. It's just a shame the film, for the most part, can't match it.
 
As in TMP scene with the travel pod flyover by Kirk and Scotty gave us a sense of the immense size of the 1701-refit. For the same reason in TFF , I liked the Shuttlecraft flight from Yosemite to the 1701-A-refit Hangar deck....Scotty greeting them as Kirk, Spock & McCoy immediately take the turbolift to the bridge. Once again this scene gave the audience an impressive introduction to the starship.
 
You also have to understand; there is no Star Trek movie that I HATE. There are some that I like more than others, but I'm always able to find something about them that I like.

I definitely agree that Star Trek V includes a lot more elements and character moments that are more in line with what made the original series so enjoyable. And Jerry Goldsmith came back to score the soundtrack. Always a plus in my book. :)

I really appreciate some of the humor in the film (minus Scotty's head bang), but I always get a good laugh when Kirk says, "I could use a shower," followed by Spock's, "Yes..." :lol:



Lord, yes, the film really captured my imagination. Like I said, it was my first Trek seen in the theater, so it was impressive enough on my preadolescent mind and I was actually worried it was to be the last Trek film. Not because it was bad or a ything, but mainly due to the subtitle and I thought they would want to switch to TNG as soon as they possibly could. Shows how much I knew! :techman:
 
I don't think it's an especially good film, but I do think aspects of it are unfairly mangled, mainly by some of the secondary cast who seem to be more venting their issues with Shatner than the script. The humour isn't any broader than the previous film (its flaw is the unevenness of tome, going from Scotty's comedy knockout to McCoy's euthanasia in the space of five minutes), and the film's few cool bits are generally given to the supporting characters. "Do you not know a jail break when ya see one?".
 
V is not a good movie. Not well directed, not well written and not well produced (the choice not to use ILM). I would watch Kirk, Spock and McCoy in a knitting circle, but this film was not well made from the first inception through the execution.
 
I enjoy them all. Each film has highs and lows, some I put on a pedestal, others I just have fun with. Star Trek V is fun. It's not "good" but it's enjoyable. People have carped about how the supporting cast is made to look foolish, but to be honest, Star Trek VI does the same thing; in TUC Chekov is borderline retarded and the whole mystery subplot makes everyone look stupid and uses them for laffs. But there's a lot of good involved in TFF. Shatner's direction and shot composition are exemplary and I prefer it over what Nick Meyer did with the next movie (Shatner didn't overload his sets with background crew milling about doing nothing and didn't make the Enterprise look like a beat up, threadbare sailing ship). There's a ton of energy in the film and we get some great geeky Trek stuff in there: great use of the shuttlecraft (this really excited me back then), information about McCoy, a tremendous score, and some very nice character bits.

TUC has a more solid story and is a better film, but I actually like watching TFF more.
 
V is not a good movie. Not well directed, not well written and not well produced (the choice not to use ILM). I would watch Kirk, Spock and McCoy in a knitting circle, but this film was not well made from the first inception through the execution.

And so once again a door has been opened, and I boldly walk through.

What follows is my review of Star Trek V as it originally appeared in my "Star Trek The Original Series - Best and Worst Of" thread posted on other websites. Note that this movie was placed above ST:TMP on that list.

Begin Quote:

So now I boldly go where few Star Trek fans really want to go, deep into the bowels of my next selection. I think, at least I hope, that someone somewhere will, after reading this, want to comment on the selection of this film for the next to the last spot instead of the last spot. Most fans would probably disagree with me, after all. But, keep reading, dear reader, and perhaps you will find my reasoning sound.

6. Star Trek V: The Final Frontier

When Trek IV opened nationally, William Shatner was already working on the storyline for the next installment of the series movie franchise. He had been promised he could direct Trek V, and, according to insiders at least, guilty of being a bit jealous over the success enjoyed by his friend Leonard Nimoy, he was wasting no time in getting the project off the ground.

Which would lead to one of the problems with this film. Shatner envisioned a story, a film, which would not only have the crew of the Enterprise truly going where no man had gone before, but doing so via utilization of a “Lawrence of Arabia” style scope and delving into the depths of perhaps mans most philosophical question. As Shatner himself phrased it:

“The Enterprise goes in search of God.”

Of course, the studio knew that many people out there did this with a either a bottle of cheap booze or a visit to the best little cat-house in insert name of your state here. Consequently, they did not allow Shatner anywhere near the budget he wanted to complete his philosophical masterpiece. Shatner was given a budget of just over $29 million in 1989 dollars to complete Trek V.

Terry Brooks, the writer of The Talismans of Shannara fame, once said:

“Experience comes from doing, not from being told. Experiment and discover. Seek and find. It is not machinations of others that compel us to do so; it is our need to know. It is, in the end, the way we learn.”

Although Shatner had by this time directed for television, when watching this film, one can see that he was learning while doing. Whereas Nimoy had been able to pull this off successfully while directing Trek III, Shatner would stumble over his grandiose ideas, his grandiose ego, a writers strike, a Teamsters strike, battles with the studio, and his own inexperience with directing for the big screen before producing a movie most people thought pretty much sucked.

Roger Ebert had this to say:

"Star Trek V" is pretty much of a mess…of all of the "Star Trek" movies, this is the worst.”

I disagree with the latter part.

In the 1999 film “Free Enterprise”, William Shatner, who plays himself, tries to promote and gain backing for his production of Shakespeare’s “Julius Caesar”, only this time as a six-hour musical in which he will play all of the male roles himself. Later in the film he finally states that he fully realizes how ridiculous his idea is, and how no one would want to sit through it. But, he says, “I think I can do it.”

I believe this moment as depicted in "Free Enterprise" sums up not only Shatner as an actor, but Trek V as a film. Shatner had a vision for what he wanted Trek V to be, and he wasn’t going to let how others may have perceived it deter him from getting as much of it as he could on film. Kirk himself would articulate this ideal in Trek V, when he tells Sybok:

“I am afraid of nothing.”

As I watched this film for the first time, I recall on more than one occasion having the feeling that, even though the audience wasn’t responding well to what they were watching, Shatner had known what he was doing. By this I specifically mean, even given his story idea was borderline ludicrous, the pacing of the film was plodding, the humor slapstick rather than witty, his inexperience as a director obvious and his own acting way over-the-top, he knew what he wanted to achieve and honestly tried to achieve it. In making his effort, he hadn’t been afraid to fail. That his effort did fail I therefore felt was not entirely his fault.

Sympathy for the devil, some might say. According to George Takei, James Doohan, and Nichelle Nichols, Shatner is and always was a pompous ass. But none of his fellow actors ever called him stupid. In making Star Trek V, Shatner reached for the farthest star, and missed.

The plot, such as it was, centered around a Vulcan named Sybok, a charicmatic nomad who also turns out to be Spock's long lost brother. Sybok has long since discarded the Vulcan way and embraced his emotions. Because of this, he succumbs to his passions and hatches a scheme to solve one of the most profound questions all sentient creatures have pontificated on and philosophized about for eons. What is the nature of God, and can we go and ask him about it? He therefore stages an uprising on Nimbus III and takes hostages, including representatives of not only the Federation but both the Romulan and the Klingon empire. This forces the Federation to respond, and quickly. Actually, a better premise than that proffered in the third season episode “The Way to Eden”, which Trek V did draw some inspiration from. Perhaps that is why the film was doomed from the start, having drawn inspiration from the worst episode of the Original Series ever to be put on film. But I digress. Kirk and company get the assignment to investigate the issue and retrieve the hostages before the Klingons show up, because Starfleet knows that the Klingons will just go in and smash the place to atoms to retrieve their ambassador if they manage to get there first.

What follows does include a few decent moments worthy of the Trek name. Kirk hatches a plan of attack, which includes subterfuge to camouflage a ground assault to retrieve the hostages. One nifty moment has Sulu jumping from a horse, rolling forward on the ground, and blasting a gun emplacement with his phaser. Uhura entices the guards away from their post with a provocative "fan dance". Spock applies the Vulcan nerve pinch to a horse, and Kirk does battle with a three-breasted cat-woman. Then the Enterprise crew find that not only have the hostages joined Sybok’s cause, but the Klingons have arrived, and are gunning for Kirk. In order to get back aboard the Enterprise, Sulu must crash land inside the hanger deck just as the Klingons fire on the ship. The enterprise, temporarily under Checkov’s command, warps away just as the photon torpedo arrives.

On first viewing, up to this point I was enjoying the film. Admittedly not as much as I had while watching Trek II through IV, but still, enjoying myself. Then the film took a nose dive off the truly absurd end, and for awhile became something only slightly more profound than “The Three Stooges in Space”. At least the other actors were getting some screen time.

“I know this ship like I know the back of my hand.”

Scotty’s prophetic words, just before he walks into a support beam and knocks himself unconscious. Please. Perhaps the joke was supposed to be that Scotty momentarily forgot he was aboard a newer version of the Enterprise, and not the ship which had been his home for so long prior. In any case, it wasn’t funny. Neither was the turbo-lift shaft scene, nor the sickbay scene, nor the holding cell scene.

Then came the anti-climax of the encounter with God, who lived in California filmed through a purple filter. This was followed by the anti-climax of Kirk climbing rocks to escape the wrath of said God, to be followed by the anti-climax of Spock blasting God with disruptors courtesy of the now far too easily subdued Klingons. All of this left the viewer with a sense of “that’s it? We waited two years for another Trek film, and that’s it?”

But then, Trek fans had known this feeling before. Recall my comments about the third season premier episode “Spocks Brain”. We saved the show, and what did we get in return?

“Brain and brain. What is brain?”

Only on this occasion, Trek fans had bought their ticket, paid extortion fees for a coke and some popcorn, sat down loyally and with enthusiastic anticipation, and been treated to, well, a middle of the road episode of Trek, at best.

If the movie had a redeeming quality, other than that previously articulated, it was the movie did possess a certain charm. It did attempt to address one of mankind’s “big” questions, one debated on internet forums all the time. And it did so in a manner equal to how the Original Series had. In other words, superficially and with a bit of bombast, only while this time saddled with the additional burden of Shatner’s overreaching grandiose ideal of what he wanted the movie to be.

I did like the moment when Sybok attempts to enter Kirk’s mind, and make him face his “pain”. Kirk’s response is quintessential Kirk, I always thought.

"I don't want my pain taken away. I need my pain!"

The ghost which haunt us often define who we are, and it was warming, in a sense, to hear the great Captain Kirk articulate this particular failing of the human spirit.

Trek V took in over $70 million dollars worldwide, including over $52 million domestically. This would be the worst box office showing of any Trek film until the 2002 release of Star Trek Nemesis.

Trek V won the “razzie” award for worst picture of 1989. Shatner also won this award for both worst director and worst actor. One critic made the comment that this film put on display Shatner’s true acting skills when no-one was around to “reign him in”. Harve Bennet was nominated as the recipient of the “razzie” award for this film as worst of the decade. Even Deforest Kelly didn’t escape the wrath of the critics, being nominated as worst supporting actor.

I was disappointed in this aspect of the film. One would logically reason, if any director knew the strengths and weaknesses of his cast, it would be Shatner on this film with this cast. Alas, he apparently managed to pull all of them out of their comfort zones while performing for the camera.

I once had an opportunity to ask James Doohan for his opinion of this Trek film. During the question and answer session of one of the conventions I attended, he had commented on his dislike for Trek V. When it came my turn to ask him a question, I said: “You have told us that you didn’t like Star Trek V. Would you mind telling us why?”

You could have heard a pin drop. Everyone was looking at me like I had just asked him to pose nude with Joy Behar. I could tell he wasn’t particularly happy either, but he did answer.

“Well,” he said, “Star Trek V. What was that all about?”

I admired James Doohan, and later had a chance to tell him so. But it was no secret to fans and insiders alike that of all the original cast, he was the most vocal in his dislike and disdain for William Shatner.

But as stated, the less than stellar success of Trek V was not all attributable to Shatner alone. The Official Star Trek website list the following four conditions which contributed to the final product as viewed by fans.

1. The 1988 Writer's Guild of America strike. Because of this both the film's pre-production and shooting schedule was severely cut. The studio decided it could not afford to have Nicholas Meyer write the script, and turned it over to the trio of Shatner, Harve Bennett, and David Loughery. Bennet and Loughery rewrote the script while Shatner was away doing other film work, and departed from his original ideal.

2. Paramount decided that Star Trek V would not be another dramatic film, but be as light-hearted as its predecessor. This was in direct opposition to the vision Shatner had for the film, which led to conflicts in both writing and filming.

3. Shatner had made a deal with Paramount that if Star Trek IV was successful, he would be contracted to direct the next film. According to Shatner’s book “Star Trek Movie Memories”, it was Nimoy who first spoke to him about the idea of he directing Trek V because he could, if he wanted to, evoke the “favored nation clause” in his contract. Essentially this meant that what one star got, the other also got. Paramount couldn’t easily deny Shatner the opportunity to direct, but they could limit his budget and time. They did both.

4. There was some public dissatisfaction with Star Trek: The Next Generation amongst fans at the time, primarily because Roddenberry was over-meddling with it. But that is for later. Fan disatisfaction with TNG carried over to impact fan reaction to this film.

And all who have seen Trek V know the result.

Industrial Light and Magic was too involved with both “Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade” and “Ghostbusters II” to also produce the special effects for this movie. The result was viewed as another failure of the film, in that the effects were sub-standard.

Shatner’s original vision had both Spock and McCoy betraying him and siding with Sybok. But neither Nimoy nor Kelly would accept this, both refusing to act in that regard.

One scene deleted from the theatrical release but available on the Special Edition DVD has Sulu and Chekov visiting the Mount Rushmore monument. Upon it now appears the face of an African-American woman. Condoleezza Rice maybe? Certainly not Maxine Waters.

In this film Kirk speaks of his death, and how he has always known that when he dies, he will “die alone”. Kirk actually dies in Star Trek Generations, away from his closest friends, but near Captain Jean-Luc Picard.

The famous “fan-dance” scene was actually preformed by Nichelle Nichols. She also sang the overture song, but this was later overdubbed in editing with the voice of another singer. Nichols was said to be outraged that this was done without her approval. During the Star Trek tribute episode of "Futurama", Uhura again uses her famed "fan dance" to distract Fry and Bender, thus allowing her fellow Enterprise crew to sneak up behind them.

Star Trek the Next Generation was in its second season of production when this film was made. This was claimed by William Shatner to have also been a cause for the poor box office showing of Trek V, in that, fans now had another source to see their favorite show without having to go to the movies. I doubt this had much of an impact on fans going to see the movie. I do believe this had an impact on fans going to see it twice.

Although this film did not really address the answer to Kirk’s famous question

“What does God need with a Starship?”

Later Star Trek novels did. In “The Q Continuum” trilogy, the Sha Ka Ree entity, or the god creature of this film, is identified as a being known of as The One. Or “that one”, as John McCain would call him. Anyway, The One was originally drawn into this universe through the Guardian of Forever by the entity known as “O”. Wasn’t there a 70’s movie by that name? Regardless, The One is subsequently defeated by the 2010 mid-term elections…..no, wait….by the Q Continuum and imprisoned in the galactic center until either his repentance or the heat death of the universe, whichever came first. The Q Continuum always had a way with words. Obviously, The One wants Kirk’s ship so he can return to Earth and punish the blasphemers who voted against him.

Of this film William Shatner himself said:

“I see Star Trek V as a failed but glorious attempt to make a picture full of character growth and a deep philosophical base, delving into man’s universal desire to believe. Obviously, it didn’t come out as I’d hoped.”

As stated earlier, Shatner wasn’t afraid to make the attempt, and he wasn’t afraid to fail. Where Star Trek the Motion Picture is concerned, apparently none who were involved with it ever gave either notion a moments thought.

Until then, as always, thanks for reading.

End Quote.
 
I decided I'd watch the movie this afternoon. That scene between Kirk, Spock, and Bones around the campfire talking about how other people have families and Kirk saying how he's always know that he'll die alone was always my favorite from the film. It really showed the closeness of those three. A touching moment, imo.
 
For me, slow/medium pace does not a bad movie make. Where you see long "agonising" moments, I feel captivated and engrossed by the wonderful spectacle. Where you see nothing happening on screen, I see an incredible science fiction film unfolding in the most spectacular way.


then why the need for characters? You could just watch special effects devoid of character or story, and listen to the great score.

Yes TMP had great effects, but those effects became the story in the second half of the film. It's a very padded movie.
You could make the "need for characters" comment about any number of films - but since I feel the characterisation and story in TMP is perfect, and combines such with the spectacular effects and stunning score, your statement is meaningless and holds no relevance for me.

I don't feel the movie is padded, nor do I feel the FX "become the story". Not at all.


ultimately it's just opinion of course, but I have to say this is pretty funny. You can literally count on a watch how many minutes of nothing but effect shots there are and minutes of just "reacting to effects" shots there are of the actors. I guess if you don't view that as "padding," then it won't convince you.
 
It is a matter of taste, and taste is informed by understanding art and process. I think if you understand film making as both art, and process, your appreciation for V will fall. I love Trek, i love those moments with the big 3, but that does not make a movie good or less terrible. I don't often throw it into my bluray player, even though i like a few seconds of the film.
 
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I'll be honest, I don't genuinely dislike any of the Star Trek movies.
 
then why the need for characters? You could just watch special effects devoid of character or story, and listen to the great score.

Yes TMP had great effects, but those effects became the story in the second half of the film. It's a very padded movie.
You could make the "need for characters" comment about any number of films - but since I feel the characterisation and story in TMP is perfect, and combines such with the spectacular effects and stunning score, your statement is meaningless and holds no relevance for me.

I don't feel the movie is padded, nor do I feel the FX "become the story". Not at all.


ultimately it's just opinion of course, but I have to say this is pretty funny. You can literally count on a watch how many minutes of nothing but effect shots there are and minutes of just "reacting to effects" shots there are of the actors. I guess if you don't view that as "padding," then it won't convince you.
As you say, it's all subjective. The movie is a finely crafted, beautiful, epic science fiction odyssey - a wonderfully immersive, highly entertaining cinematic experience. To this day, I still love turning the lights out, cranking up the volume and losing myself in this incredible movie. I find it pretty funny you're not able to enjoy the film in this way - just my opinion.
 
I have to say, i don't think many of the people who crafted the film would claim that it is FINELY CRAFTED (budget restrictions), or EPIC (story and budget restrictions). It is neither wonderful nor immersive (flat lighting and not very believable special effects). For these specific reasons it does not entertain me beyond being 'Star Trek' and me wanting to like all things Star Trek and me wishing it was better.

Other than being distributed for a few short weeks (couldn't keep it on screens in 1989) there is little 'cinematic' about it. Sorry.
 
You could make the "need for characters" comment about any number of films - but since I feel the characterisation and story in TMP is perfect, and combines such with the spectacular effects and stunning score, your statement is meaningless and holds no relevance for me.

I don't feel the movie is padded, nor do I feel the FX "become the story". Not at all.


ultimately it's just opinion of course, but I have to say this is pretty funny. You can literally count on a watch how many minutes of nothing but effect shots there are and minutes of just "reacting to effects" shots there are of the actors. I guess if you don't view that as "padding," then it won't convince you.
As you say, it's all subjective. The movie is a finely crafted, beautiful, epic science fiction odyssey - a wonderfully immersive, highly entertaining cinematic experience. To this day, I still love turning the lights out, cranking up the volume and losing myself in this incredible movie. I find it pretty funny you're not able to enjoy the film in this way - just my opinion.


fair enough. I'm glad you enjoy it so much:)


I would point out though, that obviously they went in a totally different direction for the rest of the Trek movies, so clearly there were a lot of folks who feel the same way I do about it.


But yes, it does have terrific effects(still terrific even today) and a great score.
 
I completely zoned out when I saw TMP in the theaters. Yeah, I understand they were going for a "concept art" film à la 2001 but they didn't quite get there. If nothing else 2001 was fascinating for its precision and minimalism, but TMP was sorta 2001, sorta TOS. The problem of course is that the audience is already familiar with TOS, so there were expectations going in that the film didn't meet imo. I appreciate the effort, but don't really enjoy it.

STV, I'll have to watch again. Seeing it in the theater was a mixed bag. I think it tried to be too many things or something.
 
I think it's a great campy romp! Very much enjoy it. Colorful and hilarious. Uhura fan dancing?! Woot. I love this exchange in the opening:

Rider: I can't believe you'd kill me for a field of empty holes.

J'onn: It's all I have.

Caithlin Dar is cool, I've named a few gaming characters after her. Very quotable movie. It's like a bowl of candy, almost too much most of the time but still hugely fun. When Mccoy says "I liked him better when he was dead" I always crack up.

And the Great Trio.. what's not to love about this:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpxRS8GORmk&feature=related[/yt]
 
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