eeg! 51-year-old actor marries a 16-year-old girl

[KJbushway]

Well he was a creep for parts he acted and he is a real big creep in real life. Its like he built a brainless young lady for himself, atleast thats what I get when I hear how she speaks.

 

[Thestral]

It's my best guesstimate. The Catholic church's stance is that Joseph was a man in his 90s, which I do not accept. Jesus had brothers and sisters (though, again, the Catholic church insists he had only "cousins"), so a man in his 90s siring children, as well as being an able bodied carpenter, isn't very likely (though, I guess, possible).

The likelihood is that Joseph was a man of middle age, since he was an established tradesman, sired several sons and daughters over his lifetime, but was never heard from again by the time of Jesus' first recorded miracles during the Wedding at Cana, a span of approximately 18 years (we last hear of Joseph when Jesus is 12. The Wedding at Cana takes place around the time Jesus turned 30).

A rough age of 40/41 is a reasonable stance to take (IMO anyway), as a middle aged man's lifespan could have occurred in the 30 year time frame, but if Joseph was a young man, his death would have been early, and surely there would have been mention of it in the canonical texts, the earthly father of Jesus dying a young death.

So it's just a guess of mine, but I think it's as close as we'll ever get to knowing for certain.

Ahh. The thing is, the canonical texts say so very little about Joseph; even his profession (tekton) is not a 1:1 translation as carpenter, though it's certainly one appropriate translation. I've come to feel like a lot of the reason Joseph is made to be older, aside from explaining his unremarked disappearance in the later stories, is that it's easier to make him "paternal" and "grandfatherly" and downplay the idea of his youth and virility because he's kind of an awkward part of the story anyway. Some Christians have gone to the extreme of saying Jesus "brothers and sisters" are Joseph's from a former marriage; mostly to preserve the "perpetual virginity" idea.

Personally I've come to like the idea he was a young-ish man (by our standards); late-20s, strong and youthful, and something happened.

 

[Amaris]

Ahh. The thing is, the canonical texts say so very little about Joseph; even his profession (tekton) is not a 1:1 translation as carpenter, though it's certainly one appropriate translation. I've come to feel like a lot of the reason Joseph is made to be older, aside from explaining his unremarked disappearance in the later stories, is that it's easier to make him "paternal" and "grandfatherly" and downplay the idea of his youth and virility because he's kind of an awkward part of the story anyway. Some Christians have gone to the extreme of saying Jesus "brothers and sisters" are Joseph's from a former marriage; mostly to preserve the "perpetual virginity" idea.

Personally I've come to like the idea he was a young-ish man (by our standards); late-20s, strong and youthful, and something happened.

It's why I preface my comments with statements about it just being my opinion, because Joseph's life is severely lacking in detail. What little we do know is rife with vague translations, so the final result is that we know more about a Facebook stranger than we do about the man who was supposed to have been the earthly father of Jesus. On the upside, he was apparently a man with a very compassionate heart, particularly toward Mary, in that culture. Even with my own views today, if I had a lovely, young fiance (with whom I haven't been intimate) who told me that she was pregnant because God came to her and she was carrying the Messiah, I have to admit I'd be a little skeptical.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Ahh. The thing is, the canonical texts say so very little about Joseph; even his profession (tekton) is not a 1:1 translation as carpenter, though it's certainly one appropriate translation. I've come to feel like a lot of the reason Joseph is made to be older, aside from explaining his unremarked disappearance in the later stories, is that it's easier to make him "paternal" and "grandfatherly" and downplay the idea of his youth and virility because he's kind of an awkward part of the story anyway. Some Christians have gone to the extreme of saying Jesus "brothers and sisters" are Joseph's from a former marriage; mostly to preserve the "perpetual virginity" idea.

Personally I've come to like the idea he was a young-ish man (by our standards); late-20s, strong and youthful, and something happened.

It's why I preface my comments with statements about it just being my opinion, because Joseph's life is severely lacking in detail. What little we do know is rife with vague translations, so the final result is that we know more about a Facebook stranger than we do about the man who was supposed to have been the earthly father of Jesus. On the upside, he was apparently a man with a very compassionate heart, particularly toward Mary, in that culture. Even with my own views today, if I had a lovely, young fiance (with whom I haven't been intimate) who told me that she was pregnant because God came to her and she was carrying the Messiah, I have to admit I'd be a little skeptical.

I would be more than a little skeptical, I'd kick her to the curb. (Figuratively, of course, I wouldn't kick a pregnant woman.)

 

[{ Emilia }]

It's nice to see that for a change people aren't arguing about fictional characters in Star Trek but about fictional characters in that christian fantasy book.

Shows we're not focused only on Star Trek.

 

[Thestral]

[On the upside, he was apparently a man with a very compassionate heart, particularly toward Mary, in that culture. Even with my own views today, if I had a lovely, young fiance (with whom I haven't been intimate) who told me that she was pregnant because God came to her and she was carrying the Messiah, I have to admit I'd be a little skeptical.

Yeah, this part of the story (even leaving aside the part of the story that includes a dream-visit) is why I wish Joseph got more play in general Christian narrative.

I would be more than a little skeptical, I'd kick her to the curb. (Figuratively, of course, I wouldn't kick a pregnant woman.)

Yeah, I can't say I wouldn't do the same.

It's nice to see that for a change people aren't arguing about fictional characters in Star Trek but about fictional characters in that christian fantasy book.

Shows we're not focused only on Star Trek.

 

[Lindley]

It's nice to see that for a change people aren't arguing about fictional characters in Star Trek but about fictional characters in that christian fantasy book.

Shows we're not focused only on Star Trek.

While of course many aspects of the Bible are a matter of faith rather than history, there's enough evidence suggesting the major players at least existed that it's questionable to call them "fictional". [/pendantic]

 

[{ Emilia }]

While of course many aspects of the Bible are a matter of faith rather than history, there's enough evidence suggesting the major players at least existed that it's questionable to call them "fictional". [/pendantic]

That's actually not true even though Christians keep repeating it.

Unless you count the Christian sources (which would kinda make the discussion useless) there's hardly any evidence for Jesus' existence apart from very few instances of mostly Roman and Greek historians mentioning his name decades after he allegedly died. Now I'll grant you that only like 1% of ancient literature is still available to us and even I don't think that the early Christians just completely made up some shit.

If that's proof for you regarding the existence of all the major players, fine. As a historian (not specialized in Ancient history) I'm inclined to believe that a guy called Jesus or similar existed but all the other major characters might just as well be completely fictional (with very few notable exceptions who acted after he died (like Paul)).

The whole kerfuffle around him? I dunno, we're not even sure Pilate existed and you'd think the Romans were decent at keeping track of their officials.

But again, it's been quite a long time and much was lost so I'm not gonna sit here and claim he didn't exist. But coming here saying there's evidence that the major characters existed is just nonsense.

And let's not get into the Old Testament cause there are hardly any historical accounts from that time at all.

 

[ares93]

Well, I dont know what kind of laws they have in their country (guessing the US.) but here in Sweden, my friend was going to be charged with statutory rape when he got his 17 year old girlfriend pregnant. He was 18 and she was two months younger.

Only reason he wasn't charged was because we got him out of the country. They're currently married and live in central european country. So aside from a seriously messed up legal system, everything worked out.

This case is giving me some seriously bad wibes... 16 and 51 is way too big of an age difference.

 

[iguana_tonante]

It's nice to see that for a change people aren't arguing about fictional characters in Star Trek but about fictional characters in that christian fantasy book.

I agree, but arguing that Erzi was the virgin mother of the Saviour is a bit too much, in my opinion.

 

[ares93]

It's nice to see that for a change people aren't arguing about fictional characters in Star Trek but about fictional characters in that christian fantasy book.

I agree, but arguing that Erzi was the virgin mother of the Saviour is a bit too much, in my opinion.

Dont let Rushbo hear you say that, mate. She's holy.

As for myself, I'm letting you off with a warning.

 

[{ Emilia }]

It's nice to see that for a change people aren't arguing about fictional characters in Star Trek but about fictional characters in that christian fantasy book.

I agree, but arguing that Erzi was the virgin mother of the Saviour is a bit too much, in my opinion.

I'll never get all this Espresso out of my keyboard again...

Well played, wise iguana.

 

[Thestral]

Brilliant as always, iguana!

And let's not get into the Old Testament cause there are hardly any historical accounts from that time at all.

Is there any reason we shouldn't treat parts of the Hebrew Bible as a primary historical document though? Within the proper context and keeping in mind what it is, of course. Even those accounts clearly written later but describing an earlier time (I'm thinking parts of Daniel, for example) tell us something about that culture's perception of itself in the world at the time of writing.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Is there any reason we shouldn't treat parts of the Hebrew Bible as a primary historical document though?

Who gets to decide which parts we should take seriously regarding their historical content, though? Are we just going to take everything seriously that isn't obviously incorrect? Religious texts (even more so than Ancient historiography) are full of themes and stories trying to convey a message but not trying to tell you what actually happened (Moses/Exodus anybody?).
Doesn't sound reasonable to me.

 

[Lindley]

While of course many aspects of the Bible are a matter of faith rather than history, there's enough evidence suggesting the major players at least existed that it's questionable to call them "fictional". [/pendantic]

That's actually not true even though Christians keep repeating it.

Unless you count the Christian sources (which would kinda make the discussion useless) there's hardly any evidence for Jesus' existence apart from very few instances of mostly Roman and Greek historians mentioning his name decades after he allegedly died. Now I'll grant you that only like 1% of ancient literature is still available to us and even I don't think that the early Christians just completely made up some shit.

If that's proof for you regarding the existence of all the major players, fine. As a historian (not specialized in Ancient history) I'm inclined to believe that a guy called Jesus or similar existed but all the other major characters might just as well be completely fictional (with very few notable exceptions who acted after he died (like Paul)).

The whole kerfuffle around him? I dunno, we're not even sure Pilate existed and you'd think the Romans were decent at keeping track of their officials.

But again, it's been quite a long time and much was lost so I'm not gonna sit here and claim he didn't exist. But coming here saying there's evidence that the major characters existed is just nonsense.

And let's not get into the Old Testament cause there are hardly any historical accounts from that time at all.

Well, you may know more on the subject than me. I was merely reacting to your flippant tone; since there's actual knowledge backing it up I don't think there's any need to belabor the point.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Well, you may know more on the subject than me. I was merely reacting to your flippant tone;

Guilty.
And I just had waffles which should calm my mood and make me less confrontational.
Hm, waffles.

since there's actual knowledge backing it up I don't think there's any need to belabor the point.

You're welcome to be "pedantic" again. Keeps me on my toes.
Anyway, off to make more waffles.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

It's nice to see that for a change people aren't arguing about fictional characters in Star Trek but about fictional characters in that christian fantasy book.

I agree, but arguing that Erzi was the virgin mother of the Saviour is a bit too much, in my opinion.

I watched the Voyager episode Prophecy last night. Belanna was the mother of the savior, but she never struck me as quite the virginal type.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And I just had waffles which should calm my mood and make me less confrontational.
Hm, waffles.

I love Waffle House. Got the chance to eat at one on a recent road trip and became immediately hooked.

I wish they had them in the state where I live. Sadly they do not.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Well, I dont know what kind of laws they have in their country (guessing the US.) but here in Sweden, my friend was going to be charged with statutory rape when he got his 17 year old girlfriend pregnant. He was 18 and she was two months younger.

Only reason he wasn't charged was because we got him out of the country. They're currently married and live in central european country. So aside from a seriously messed up legal system, everything worked out.

This case is giving me some seriously bad wibes... 16 and 51 is way too big of an age difference.

How can he be charged if the age of consent in Sweden is 15?

 

[RoJoHen]

It's nice to see that for a change people aren't arguing about fictional characters in Star Trek but about fictional characters in that christian fantasy book.

I agree, but arguing that Erzi was the virgin mother of the Saviour is a bit too much, in my opinion.

I watched the Voyager episode Prophecy last night. Belanna was the mother of the savior, but she never struck me as quite the virginal type.

There is no rule that says that every savior needs a miraculous birth.