Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watch?

[{ Emilia }]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

Sometimes, unpopular decisions have to be made, and having someone who doesn't need to ride the popular sentiment all the time is not necessarily a bad thing.

That's why the president of Germany can only serve two terms and doesn't get elected by the people directly but through a body of members of parliament and appointed electors. It's not ideal either of course.
But if the president screws up you get rid of him after the term or at least after the following term.
If the royal is an idiot you'll basically never get rid of him or her till he/she dies.

I see that as an issue.

In any case neither the Queen of England nor the German president CAN make unpopular decisions anyway since the legislative and executive powers lie in the hands of the parliament and the government.

I can see times when the momentary (and easily-swayed) will of the people is not the best thing for the country. Having someone who is raised from birth to be that kind of person is just more convenient (and less dangerous) than having someone selected at random, for example by a lottery.

You can get unlucky, though. The training can fail, the monarch can turn out to be an idiot, he or she might end up turning the country in an absolute monarchy by blackmailing the parliament (read: Liechtenstein. Ridiculous country.).

And despite of all the training I think many royal families end up being more of a constant embarrassment for their countries* whenever some members of the royal family open their mouths, are found to have contacts with criminal elements and prostitutes (King of Sweden) or are just in general being in the yellow press.



* Footnote: Sadly that applies to some elected leaders, too. *cough* Berlusconi *cough*.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

It's just because they want William to break off with the girl at the altar and go stamp a big wet kiss on one of his fellow airmen, Jack Harkness style.

Somebody contact me on ICQ if that happens. I'll turn on the TV then.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

But if the president screws up you get rid of him after the term or at least after the following term.
If the royal is an idiot you'll basically never get rid of him or her till he/she dies.

I see that as an issue.

Well, there are ways around that (for example, see Edward VIII).

In any case neither the Queen of England nor the German president CAN make unpopular decisions anyway since the legislative and executive powers lie in the hands of the parliament and the government.

That's why I talked about influence behind closed doors, and not actual power.

In general, I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said. I am just throwing my 2 bits on the matter, to present a more rounded position.

* Footnote: Sadly that applies to some elected leaders, too. *cough* Berlusconi *cough*.

Don't get me started about that. He makes me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

 

[Count Zero]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

^I don't see how any of that contradicts Count Zero's post. I think you read something into what she posted that wasn't there.

Yep. More on that below.

As for the OT--I'm no longer a monarchist, so, no--I won't be getting up early to watch. Though my family did get up early, way back when, to watch Charles and Diana get married.

I have a hard time imagining you as a monarchist. What is it like, what do monarchists do?

I wouldn't mind watching a highlight reel, though. I find that the British do a good job with these kinds of state occasions.

I'm sure we won't be able to escape that.

Count Zero said monarchs aren't useless and that the monarch in the UK makes sure that head of state and head of government aren't the same person.

No, I merely explained that the monarchs in constitutional monarchies aren't useless because they're the heads of state. If Britain had done away with the monarchy they'd probably have a president, so by no means is it necessary to have a monarchy to have two separate offices.
Also, as I said, it's quite possible to have those two offices basically merged into one, like in the USA or Brazil or a lot of other democratic countries.

My points were: 1) the british head of state is useless cause she has no important role in actual politics.

That doesn't make a head of state useless. Most heads of state, at least in Europe, have a very small role in actual politics. That's kind of the point of the office. You may find it's not necessary to have such an office, fine, but that's not the same as being useless.

Also, you seemed to think that when I said 'separate' I meant something like 'equally divided'. I didn't. I meant that there are two offices where the US only has one.

As for you decreeing I have no clue about politics from misunderstanding one of my posts - well, this isn't TNZ so I can't fully express myself and leave it at that: .

 

[{ Emilia }]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

* Footnote: Sadly that applies to some elected leaders, too. *cough* Berlusconi *cough*.

Don't get me started about that. He makes me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

Funny enough every single Italian I know (including myself) claims to never have voted for him.

 

[Goliath]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

2) The UK is a terrible example for a democracy that divides power between different entities since the UK prime minister has a lot of power.

That's true, and not just in the UK. But this is a problem that goes far beyond an un-elected head of state. It's an unexpected consequence of an historical process that was itself a good thing: namely, the decline of monarchical and aristocratic power.

The doctrine of the separation of powers is based on the belief that the people cannot be trusted, and need to be supervised by their betters; and also, that the rich need and deserve power proportional to their wealth to protect them from the poor.

In my opinion, neither of these claims is true. Certainly neither is a good reason not to concentrate power in the legislative branch--that is to say, in the hands of the people's delegates and representatives.

The problem, as I said above, is that the concentration of power in the legislature has led to a concentration of power in the hands of the premier. And the source of that power is not the decline of the monarchy, but party loyalty and discipline. The leader of a majority in the Commons is essentially a constitutional dictator.

That's not a problem that an elected head of state can necessarily fix. On the one hand, parliamentary monarchies that become parliamentary republics tend to simply substitute "president" for "king." The head of state remains a largely ceremonial office, whose power is mostly theoretical, except in extreme circumstances. They safeguard the constitution, ensure that the country always has a government, and represent the state in public--the same way a constitutional monarch does.

On the other hand, it's entirely possible for an elected head of state to belong to the same party as the head of government--and thereby concentrate even more power in the hands of the prime minister. Given that our current prime minister has shown clear signs that he would relish such a situation, I'm kind of glad that the office of the governor-general does not have the added legitimacy that would come from being elected.

In addition, there are sometimes good reasons for not politicizing the head of state. Here in Canada, as you may know, we've been dealing with a low-intensity constitutional crisis for decades now, as the Quebecois separatist movement tries to persuade the people of Quebec to secede from Canada. In such a situation, it would be easy for a presidential election to degenerate into a national-unity crisis, by pitting the candidate of Quebec against the candidate of the rest of Canada.

An unelected monarch, and its appointed representative, ensures that this can't happen. I've been told that, in Quebec, postage stamps with the Queen on them are easier to obtain than postage stamps with the Canadian flag, for this reason. The flag is a symbol of federalism, and was adopted in an attempt to combat separatism. The Queen, on the other hand, is just an old British woman.

Finally, there's inertia--the "yeah, it sucks, but what are you going to do?" factor. In theory, I'm in favour of a republic. In practice, though, changing Canada from a constitutional monarchy to a republic would require a constitutional amendment, and that would require the unanimous assent of the federal parliament, and all ten provincial legislatures. That sounds like a lot of work for what might, in practice, turn out to be a distinction without a difference.

For that reason, I think we should concentrate on other, more important reforms, to the electoral system, and to the upper house of Parliament, and leave the monarchy for last.

 

[Goliath]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

I have a hard time imagining you as a monarchist. What is it like, what do monarchists do?

Argue with republicans, mostly.

In retrospect, a large part of my monarchism derived from the fact that I just didn't like that word "republican," which I associate with the Republican Party in the States, and with the Irish Republican Army.

The only good Republican is a Spanish Republican. And they're mostly dead.

 

[Jadzia]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

I see the Royal Family rather like the tree in "The Inner Light"

This tree is our symbol... our
affirmation of life. Everyone
in this town gives a part of their
water rations to keep it alive.

We have learned, Administrator,
that hope is a powerful weapon
against anything... even drought.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

As for you decreeing I have no clue about politics from misunderstanding one of my posts - well, this isn't TNZ so I can't fully express myself and leave it at that: .

I apologize. That did sound quite condescending, sorry.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

Funny enough every single Italian I know (including myself) claims to never have voted for him.

Same here. A testament to the fact that what Italians say with their lips is only tangentially related to what they do with their hands... or dicks.

The only good Republican is a Spanish Republican. And they're mostly dead.

I'll add Roman Republicans too. They were cool.

 

[Goliath]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

The only good Republican is a Spanish Republican. And they're mostly dead.

I'll add Roman Republicans too. They were cool.

Yes. Roman Republicans too.

But they're all dead.

So, really, the only good Republican...

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

You wicked, wicked man.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

Funny enough every single Italian I know (including myself) claims to never have voted for him.

Same here. A testament to the fact that what Italians say with their lips is only tangentially related to what they do with their hands... or dicks.

The iguana speaks both truth and wisdom.

 

[Count Zero]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

In retrospect, a large part of my monarchism derived from the fact that I just didn't like that word "republican," which I associate with the Republican Party in the States, and with the Irish Republican Army.

The only good Republican is a Spanish Republican. And they're mostly dead.

I have much the same problem with the word, it's also the name of a right-wing party here. We don't have many monarchists, though.

As for you decreeing I have no clue about politics from misunderstanding one of my posts - well, this isn't TNZ so I can't fully express myself and leave it at that: .

I apologize. That did sound quite condescending, sorry.

Apology accepted.

Funny enough every single Italian I know (including myself) claims to never have voted for him.

Same here. A testament to the fact that what Italians say with their lips is only tangentially related to what they do with their hands... or dicks.

It might also be true, depending on where Berlusconi gets his votes. For example, I don't think I know anyone who votes Conservative here, and yet, they're still leading in the polls. Their voters aren't really part of my social environment and I imagine it's the same with you and Berlusconi's base.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

The iguana speaks both truth and wisdom.

I could swear I've heard that before.

It might also be true, depending on where Berlusconi gets his votes. For example, I don't think I know anyone who votes Conservative here, and yet, they're still leading in the polls. Their voters aren't really part of my social environment and I imagine it's the same with you and Berlusconi's base.

That's very true (and I was going to mention it but didn't want to derail the thread, well, even more ). I live in the leftmost city, work in the leftmost business, and hang out in the leftmost circles. I do know some people who vote for him, but they are mostly old people (who buy into his scaremongering about "communists" coming to eat them), the wealthy (horrified about paying a tiny fraction of their earning in taxes), and sociopaths (who just like to fuck with society).

 

[{ Emilia }]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

I live in the leftmost city, work in the leftmost business, and hang out in the leftmost circles.

I went to uni in Bologna... la rossa. So yeah, I know what you're talking about. I think I'm just lucky enough not to have any of his voters in my life.
And well, right now I live in Germany (got a German passport, too) and Berlusconi is incredibly unpopular here.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

I went to uni in Bologna... la rossa.

Me too. Class of... well, quite some time ago.

I still get to hang there quite often, tho, since I still work in academia.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

I went to uni in Bologna... la rossa.

Me too. Class of... well, quite some time ago.

I still get to hang there quite often, tho, since I still work in academia.

I envy you. It's easily the city I love most in Italy. Missing it tbh and listening to Guccini doesn't help.

 

[TheGodBen]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

Lot of people seem to think that if Queen Elizabeth dies, Charles will abdicate in favor of William. What do you all think about this? Not if this *should* happen, but if it *will*.

Of course it wont. Charles is next in line, unless he dies before Liz, he will be King and probably will be for several decades. It does not matter if he is widely unpopular, it doesn't matter if various commonwealth countries declare themselves republics because they can't stand to see his portrait hanging in public buildings, this is his birthright and he will see it through. The idea that Charles should abdicate in favour of William was floated back when he was going to marry Camilla, because of how deeply unpopular she was at the time, and it was rubbished. That is not how the monarch is decided. The monarch is not elected, popularity has no part to play in it.


As for the original question: I wouldn't even get up early to watch my own President get married, so you can imagine how much excitement I can muster about my neighbour's head of state's grandson getting married.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Royal Wedding (Prince William & Kate)- R U Waking Up Early to Watc

It's easily the city I love most in Italy. Missing it tbh and listening to Guccini doesn't help.

Bologna è una vecchia signora
dai fianchi un po' molli,
col seno sul piano padano
ed il culo sui colli.

I love Francesco Guccini. That song gets me every time. It has a very important place in my life.