Revisiting ST-TNG...

[Distorted Humor]

The value of them to me is threefold: a) they spark the memory and encourage fresh and lively discussion in the series, such as your own posts and those of the other participants in the thread; b) they offer a different perspective than we're used to reading in this forum; and c) they're actually reasonably well-written (not something you can say of many reviews of Trek) making them quite engaging and enjoyable to read.

Indeed, My reviews don't get much attention, but I am not as good as a writer, I am sure it is more boring, and apparently less controversial, perhaps I will say that BoBW stinks and see if that gets a response. (Even my high review of "The Battle" didn't get a rise out of anyone, as I gave it a seven out of 10)

This has been a excellent thread and while I might disagree on specific episodes, and I don't want TOS to be the same as TNG, and TNG be the same as DS9, and so on, I think a lot of his Warps barbs on the season seven is true, as I don't remember that fondly that season, and season six was not as good as season five.

 

[Ubik]

Looking forward to Season 7 I can see only four episodes that I recall liking on some level.

“Parallels”
“The Pegasus”
“Lower Decks”
“Preemptive Strike”

Those are indeed the best episodes of the season, except you left out another 2 fantastic ones: Thine Own Self and the finale, All Good Things. Other than those 6, the Gambit 2-parter is a lot of fun.....and that's basically about it. There are a lot of silly ones this season - it's clear they were concentrating on the movie.....which also ended up stinking. Oh well.

 

[Warped9]

I remember hating "All Good Things." It was just yet another Q contrived piece of bullshit and with the shunting back-and-forth between time periods. I could never understand why so many folks laud that piece o' crap.

 

[RAMA]

Season 1 episode average = 2.56
Season 2 episode average = 2.95
Season 3 episode average = 3.23
Season 4 episode average = 3.15
Season 5 episode average = 2.96
Season 6 episode average = 2.73

Season 6 takes yet another hit in average quality.

34.6% poor to bad episodes
65.4% fair to excellent episodes

Season 5 ratings:
***** Excellent (0%)

**** Good (30.7%)
“Time’s Arrow” (Part II)
“Chain Of Command” (Part II)
“Ship In A Bottle”
“Face Of The Enemy”
“Birthright” (Part II)
“The Chase”
“Frame Of Mind”
“Rightful Heir”

*** Fair (34.6%)
“Relics”
“Schisms”
“The Quality Of Life”
“Chain Of Command” (Part I)
“Tapestry”
“Birthright” (Part I)
“Starship Mine”
“Second Chances”
“Timescape”

** Poor (11.5%)
“Lessons”
“Suspicions”
“Descent” (Part I)

* Bad (23%)
“Realm Of Fear”
“Man Of The People”
“True Q”
“Rascals”
“A Fistful Of Datas”
“Aquiel”


***** Equal to Season 1 in not having a single excellent episode. At this stage that's rather sad.
1st Season = 0 episodes
2nd Season = 3 episodes (13%)
3rd Season = 5 episodes (19%)
4th Season = 1 episode (3%)
5th Season = 2 episodes (7%)
6th Season = 0 episodes (0%)

**** It gains one extra good episode at the sacrifice of not having even one excellent one.
1st Season = 4 episodes (16%)
2nd Season = 6 episodes (27%)
3rd Season = 6 episodes (23%)
4th Season = 10 episodes (38%)
5th Season = 7 episodes (26%)
6th Season = 8 episodes (30.%)

*** Stays the same as Season 5.
1st Season = 9 episodes (36%)
2nd Season = 5 episodes (22%)
3rd Season = 8 episodes (30%)
4th Season = 7 episodes (26%)
5th Season = 9 episodes (34%)
6th Season = 9 episodes (34.%)

** Surprisingly few poor episodes.
1st Season = 9 episodes (36%)
2nd Season = 4 episodes (18%)
3rd Season = 4 episodes (18%)
4th Season = 5 episodes (19%)
5th Season = 4 episodes (15%)
6th Season = 3 episodes (11.%)

* A big jump in bad episodes and following the upward swing from Season 5. And at this stage it's sad that it has more bad episodes than any previous season.
1st Season = 3 episodes (12%)
2nd Season = 4 episodes (18%)
3rd Season = 3 episodes (11%)
4th Season = 3 episodes (11%)
5th Season = 4 episodes (15%)
6th Season = 6 episodes (23.%)


Here are things put more concisely:

Good to Excellent: Here we can see a general increase in better episodes from Season 1 onward until the turnaround in Season 5 when things start to slide. More specifically TNG starts to lose its edge.
Season 1 = 16%
Season 2 = 40.9%
Season 3 = 42.3%
Season 4 = 42.3%
Season 5 = 34.6%
Season 6 = 30.7%

Fair: Here we can see the jump in "just okay" episodes in Season 5 and the blandness continues into Season 6.
Season 1 = 36%
Season 2 = 22.7%
Season 3 = 30.7%
Season 4 = 26.9%
Season 5 = 34.6%
Season 6 = 34.6%

Poor to Bad: After a steady decrease from Seasons 1 to 3 things turn around and start to slide from Season 4 onward.
Season 1 = 48%
Season 2 = 36.3%
Season 3 = 26.9%
Season 4 = 30.7%
Season 5 = 30.7%
Season 6 = 34.6%

The figures reflect my overall impressions. From Seasons 1 to 4 TNG gets its act together and gets better and more polished. But in Season 4 the cracks start appear. Yet it's really in Seasons 5 and 6 that TNG gets into a real rut and starts to feel very paint-by-number. Very little of what they do rises above a show that feels tired. A lot of the work is just okay, a dip in genuinely good work and a rise in bad efforts.

But the real disappointment is that the whole is not equal to the sum of the parts---the last two seasons just feel bland. It isn't that there aren't any good ideas, but rather how they pit those ideas across. I generally enjoyed rewatching the first four seasons and finding I liked more than a few things more than I remembered. But the last two seasons as a whole just didn't engage me and pretty much reaffirmed why I drifted from the series.


Looking at the series overall at this point.

Good to Excellent = 52 episodes (34.2%)
Fair = 47 episodes (30.9%)
Poor to Bad = 53 episodes (34.8%)

Ratings are roughly in thirds. But the big swing segment is the percentage of fair episodes---these are the ones I felt were generally inoffensive to the point that while I don't outright dislike them I also don't particularly care for them either. What this overall picture shows to me is that I like about ten percent of these episodes more than I remember liking. And at this point there are about two seasons worth of episodes I think are genuinely worthy and the rest are dismissible. That said, though, there is a qualifier here in that I found the fair episodes from the earlier seasons easier to accept probably because I felt the show as a whole was getting better. But as things progressed the fair episodes became more easily forgettable.

I don't think your season 6 ratings are up with the usual fan opinion of the season but of course, you stated ahead of time that you wouldn't be liking them as much so there is no surprise there. I ranked 5 episodes with 5-stars, and that is less than half as many as season 5 in my book, but there were enough consistent high caliber episodes towards the middle of the season to keep this ranking as a very good season.

Where I'll agree with you is that season 7 doesn't have as much consistency as the previous few seasons, but it has to be taken on an episode by episode basis likethis, because there are several iconic episodes there.

RAMA

 

[Ubik]

I remember hating "All Good Things." It was just yet another Q contrived piece of bullshit and with the shunting back-and-forth between time periods. I could never understand why so many folks laud that piece o' crap.

Yes, I am absolutely convinced that you could never understand that.

 

[RAMA]

Well, on a personal note, I don't think that makes the reviews in any way less interesting. I haven't had the impression that Warped9 is claiming to be reviewing TNG as an unbiased third party.

The value of them to me is threefold: a) they spark the memory and encourage fresh and lively discussion in the series, such as your own posts and those of the other participants in the thread; b) they offer a different perspective than we're used to reading in this forum; and c) they're actually reasonably well-written (not something you can say of many reviews of Trek) making them quite engaging and enjoyable to read.

Actually, it has gotten me to watch a few STNG episodes that I would not have normally watched at that particular time.

It is somewhat surprising that he thinks roughy 2/3rds of the episodes are fair or better. Still, his biases effect the ratings...those are biases that some of us (myself for example) don't have with his favorite show, because I grew up with the reruns, before there was any other Star Trek. So I think mine are more balanced between the different series.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

I remember hating "All Good Things." It was just yet another Q contrived piece of bullshit and with the shunting back-and-forth between time periods. I could never understand why so many folks laud that piece o' crap.

Yes, I am absolutely convinced that you could never understand that.

Hmm I believe it was universally well reviewed by critics and fans alike. Of course, there are episodes of some ST series that are universally panned that I like (ENT's TATV for example)...so I guess everyone needs to be allowed to go against the grain somewhat.

RAMA

 

[Trekker4747]

I think AGT is often lauded because it's a nice tribute to the end of the series without shattering parts of it, it pays tribute (to a degree) to the earlier seasons as well as what I see as the "series arc."

The series arc to me, as established by Q in the first and last episodes, is how far humanity has come from the "savage" nature it is/was in the 20th century compared to the more enlightened 24th century humans and every episode of the series was trying to show that. How much humanity can achieve with set aside our petty bickering, wars over resources or acquisition of personal wealth. So, for me, AGT ends that nicely with Q telling Picard the "trial" never ended and never will end as humans will always judge themselves on what they've done in the past and strive to be better in the future and achieve it.

Reality, as Q would likely say, has a liberal bias.

Anyway though some of your episode reviews push against the grain a bit your season rankings seem more or less on part with the common feelings. S1 was pretty weak, S2 was a bit of an improvement, S3 and S4 were pretty much golden, S5 saw a decline, S6 was more of a decline (and more so towards the end of the season as more of the good writers were shunted to DS9) and it's likely your S7 revisit will hold true and be along with what most people feel that it was generally a weak season and I'd almost argue it's worse than S1. Yeah there's one or two gems in S7 but, oy, the bad vastly over shadows it.

 

[Warped9]

I was fully prepared to be in conflict with opinions when revisiting the series. I knew there would be episodes I liked that others didn't and episodes I disliked that others revered. I wasn't concerned with that.

I merely wanted to see how much time might have changed my perspective and what I remembered. And what I've found so far is that I remember liking about 20-25% of the episodes and yet now I like about 35-40% of them. That's about a 10-15% change. I'd also say it's not bad considering someone who is often cited as not tolerating anything after 1979.

That said TOS will always remain my favourite and I never expected TNG to be exactly like TOS. I merely hoped that TNG could evoke and reflect aspects of TOS on some levels while still being something distinctive that I could enjoy, and I do see that within the first four seasons. After that...well, not so much.

 

[RAMA]

I was fully prepared to be in conflict with opinions when revisiting the series. I knew there would be episodes I liked that others didn't and episodes I disliked that others revered. I wasn't concerned with that.

I merely wanted to see how much time might have changed my perspective and what I remembered. And what I've found so far is that I remember liking about 20-25% of the episodes and yet now I like about 35-40% of them. That's about a 10-15% change. I'd also say it's not bad considering someone who is often cited as not tolerating anything after 1979.

That said TOS will always remain my favourite and I never expected TNG to be exactly like TOS. I merely hoped that TNG could evoke and reflect aspects of TOS on some levels while still being something distinctive that I could enjoy, and I do see that within the first four seasons. After that...well, not so much.

So in other words...99 episodes in 6 seasons the are fair or above, and 61 that are "good"...almost as many episodes as TOS produced in total...something I said was true at minimum...not bad for a hater!

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

If I count just episodes that are rated Good to Excellent then there are 52 episodes in Seasons 1-6 that are favourable. But there are a few 4 rated episodes I'm not that crazy about and a few 3 rated episodes I still rather like despite their rough edges, and so the end result is about sixty some episodes I like within Seasons 1-6.

If I were to list just the episodes I thought were exceptional (episodes rating a 6 if I had rated that high) there would be far fewer episodes.

 

[Ubik]

If I count just episodes that are rated Good to Excellent then there are 52 episodes in Seasons 1-6 that are favourable. But there are a few 4 rated episodes I'm not that crazy about and a few 3 rated episodes I still rather like despite their rough edges, and so the end result is about sixty some episodes I like within Seasons 1-6.

If I were to list just the episodes I thought were exceptional (episodes rating a 6 if I had rated that high) there would be far fewer episodes.

Well, that's fine - an average of, say, 2 to 4 masterpieces a season is far better than can be managed by most television shows, who tend to average zero.

 

[RAMA]

If I count just episodes that are rated Good to Excellent then there are 52 episodes in Seasons 1-6 that are favourable. But there are a few 4 rated episodes I'm not that crazy about and a few 3 rated episodes I still rather like despite their rough edges, and so the end result is about sixty some episodes I like within Seasons 1-6.

If I were to list just the episodes I thought were exceptional (episodes rating a 6 if I had rated that high) there would be far fewer episodes.

Well of course we have a slight difference of opinion. Just 3 of STNG's seasons contain 32 5-star episodes in my ratings: 3, 4, 5. All of TOS has 15 in 3 seasons! 10 in season one of TOS alone, which I grant is one of the best seasons of any TV show in history (and 5th on my ST series list). Season 3 of TOS is the only season in ANY ST show that I gave no 5-star episodes to, although several come close.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

"Descent" Part II **

Data is found allied with Lore with and a faction of Borg.

Part I ended on a stink and Part II isn't any better. Granted Crusher's performance in command was somewhat interesting, but it doesn't wash away the stupidity of the idea and it still remains out of character and wholly unbelievable. Under Lore's influence Data's experimentation on Laforge is rather disturbing. All told though I really didn't care for this.

Season 7 is off to a poor start.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Descent II fails to deliver on the promise of the season finale. It just didn't go big the way it should have--everything happened on the planet far away from the Federation--so much "the sons of Soong are together again and together we'll destroy the Federation". Everything was wrapped up too quickly and too easily and while a lot was packed into it most of it was mundane and like the writer didn't know what to do with it and just stitiched together a few straightforward subplots only spruced up by the fact it involved the Borg. VOY would tackle the idea of a rift within the Collective--Borg vs Borg--in "Unimatrix Zero" I though to better effect but it too went nowhere.

It was nice seeing Hugh again and learning about what happened--I thought the teaser was quite well done with Lore walking about his followers and sharing with the away team what transpired(although never learned where the ship came from). It was also interesting to see the Borg struggle with individuality. VOY would go on to suggest de-assimilating someone was possible and easy with the link being severed the original personality would resurface--I always saw these Lore Borg as individuals who due to their assimilation lost their previous memories and identities before their assimilation and were having to relearn everything.

Loved seeing Crusher in charge. Loved the callback to S6 with metaphasic shielding.

However, the whole climax--whether with the destruction of the Borg ship, Lore's disassembly, the Hugh Borg fighting the Lore Borg, Data once again not taking any progress to the next step by installing emotions all were rather anti-climatic and underwhelming. I just can't help but be letdown by a rather interesting idea that failed to be mined to its full potential--this really deserved to be a multi-episode arc. In fact, I read in a TVGuide article the writers said they intended to do a follow-up episode later in the season on the state of the Borg colony but obviously for some reason they didn't.

As a conclusion it is 2 stars out of 4--as a standalone story it isn't bad and is perfectly watchable and would get 2.5 stars out of 4.

 

[Harvey]

"Descent II" is a mess, but that's mostly due to having Lore thrust upon the Borg related storyline at the end of the season six cliffhanger. He isn't needed and his presence doesn't give Hugh enough screen time for his story to have proper resolution.

I don't know why you're getting hung up on Crusher in command, though. She's a full commander and has taken the command training exam (like Troi will later do in season seven).

 

[Mr Darcy]

I don't know why you're getting hung up on Crusher in command, though.

Nerd Rage?

 

[Anwar]

It's been my opinion that there are two types of Borg, there are those who are born into it and were never individuals to begin with (those Baby Borg in "Q Who?") and then there are the assimilated ones.

Hugh and everyone from Descent are meant to be Borg who were never individuals to begin with, which is why they lack the Borg parts that are meant to suppress emotions and individuality in the assimilated ones. It's also why being exposed to individual thought messed them up so much, it was a totally alien thing to them and there wasn't anything to safeguard against it in their group.

Crusher did pretty well against the Borg ship, but my complaint is that when VOY tries the same thing in destroying a Borg vessel using unusual means like this (the power of the sun) complaints roll in that a solar flare/other aliens/collapsing wormholes/etc shouldn't be strong enough to destroy a Borg ship.

So yeah, that irritates me but I don't hold it against this episode.

 

[Warped9]

A command test is not the same thing as someone who has been trained over years to command. Crusher has spent years training to be a physician. Riker and Picard and Kirk and Sisko and others have been trained over years to command. Sulu is a trained and experienced combat officer (as stated in TOS' "Arena").

In "Descent" this whole scenario is based on a stupid idea: leave a skeleton crew of inexperienced crewman aboard in a hostile situation. And remember that there are families aboard as well. If I were Admiral Necheyev I'd have Picard's ass courtmartialed so fast he wouldn't know what hit him.

This this reflects something I've been noticing while revisiting TNG as well as TOS interchangeably. Watching TOS it's quite apparent that the creative team understand something about the military. You get a sense of it in how they write the characters, what they say and what they do. This comes from the fact that many of the creative team likely had military experience either in WW2 or Korea or perhaps just did a stint in the military. We know Roddenberry flew planes in WW2 and, of course, it wasn't long before that he was producing The Lieutenant, a series about the Marine Corps. Granted TOS wasn't strictly like the military as we understand it and the show did take liberties for the sake of drama.

Still TNG never really shows any understanding of military thinking. For the sake of putting everyone in jeopardy they beam practically everyone down to the planet and leave the freaking CMO in command. This isn't a case of someone standing a watch, you're leaving the ship in the hands of an experienced officer in time of crises. That is negligence and maybe even dereliction. It's damned poor judgement and undermines the credibility of the story. If you do something crassly stupid to shatter one's suspension of disbelief then don't blame the viewer if they walk out on you and say to hell with it.

There's another point that bugs me about the ending of "Descent." A lot of folks have vented about Kirk not having checked up on Khan after leaving him on Ceti Alpha 5, but Kirk wasn't obligated to do so. Indeed after reporting in to Starfleet (which he'd have to do since you can't swear everyone aboard to secrecy) he could possibly have been ordered never to approach the planet again. And Khan didn't impress as someone who would expect to be watched over either. I've made my point and will move on because this isn't a TWOK discussion and what a mess that story is.

But what of TNG? Picard set in motion what happened to Hugh and the Borg and look what happened. In truth if they had never seen the Borg ever again then they wouldn't have given it another thought. But they did see the result and yet at the end of the episode then appear to be walking away from the whole thing. Wouldn't you think Picard and in extent the Federation should be involved in trying to help the disconnected Borg? As I see it they're morally obligated to help them.

I also agree that Lore wasn't needed for this story. He was shoehorned in for no good reason just as Crusher was put in command just to give her character something to do. It's all sloppy writing and creatively bereft thinking.

 

[Anwar]

Given how in FC Starfleet ordered Picard not to get involved in the second Borg attack on Earth it's not hard to believe that they ordered him not to get involved with Hugh again after this.

And we never heard for Hugh and his group against after this, so for all we know the Feds do have relations with them someway.

Starfleet may be willing to overlook the "leave the CMO in charge" thing by virtue of Crusher destroying the Borg Battlecruiser.