This looks bad, ColeMercury, but I'm not sure that the impression your post has given is what you actually intended. Benefit of the doubt, but awaiting your clarification.
Lack of LGBT characters and the "magic bullet"
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This looks bad, ColeMercury, but I'm not sure that the impression your post has given is what you actually intended. Benefit of the doubt, but awaiting your clarification.
Making a gay character into a figure of fun who's laughed at for constantly making unwelcome advances to Captain Picard = an incredibly bad idea. Visibility doesn't count for anything if it's visibility in the form of an offensive stereotype.
Well, then, they wouldn't be flirting with their commanding officer, would they? Assuming he is a crew member. And the "it freaks Picard out each time" bit did imply a certain over-the-topness and flamboyancy.Nightdiamond said:
And yeah, about Lwaxana -- enough viewers hated her and found her irritating as it is. Can you imagine what the reaction would be if there was a male version of Lwaxana who behaved in the same way towards Picard?
Given that, from a certain point of view, Worf married a transgendered individual, I doubt it would mess with him as much as you're implying.
Yep. In fact, there's no particular reason to think that Klingon society has a homosexuality taboo. Such a taboo is not inherent to any given society or to a warrior society. The ancient Spartans, for instance, encouraged homosexuality amongst their soldiers; they believed that by creating that much stronger of a bond among their soldiers, they'd want to fight that much harder for one-another. For all we know, Klingons may well encourage homosexuality amongst their warriors.
Making a gay character into a figure of fun who's laughed at for constantly making unwelcome advances to Captain Picard = an incredibly bad idea. Visibility doesn't count for anything if it's visibility in the form of an offensive stereotype.
Well, then, they wouldn't be flirting with their commanding officer, would they? Assuming he is a crew member. And the "it freaks Picard out each time" bit did imply a certain over-the-topness and flamboyancy.Nightdiamond said:
And yeah, about Lwaxana -- enough viewers hated her and found her irritating as it is. Can you imagine what the reaction would be if there was a male version of Lwaxana who behaved in the same way towards Picard?
That's how it is in real life.... People who take themselves way too seriously and have no sense of humor are a little screwy.... When I said make it humorous and don't make it too serious, I don't mean talking trash about gay people.... Common! Everybody does something weird and ridiculous.... I always thought that ST future, that is portrayed on the show, seems to lack a sense of humor. Don't tell me people in the future don't have a sense of humor. NOw, that's scary. That's why I like DS9 the best because they have a good sense of humor.
Just out of interest, what did you think I meant?
And yet I see another post that is mostly about LGBT scenarios in Star Trek. AND as stated in another thread (look it up yourselves),...Do you seriously think you will be more nationally accepted if there is?...AND that is the bottom line...NOBODY cares but the "minority" opinion on this and many other message boards. It's an entertainment medium....much like other shows. 
But a medium that also does social commentary, mixed in with the "entertainment."
Television has pushed civil rights for decades, so it not just a avenue for naked profits.
Remember Will and Grace?
Admittedly it wasn't toward Picard, but La Forge had something of a long history of making unwelcomed and unsuccessful advances to women, both on and off the ship. It been a running fan joke for years, as long as it is not mean spirited, it perfectly alright to laugh at gay people. We laugh at straight people (only when appropriate).
In TOS, we saw Nurse Chapel frequently flirt with Commander Spock, remember the scene with the soup? Helen Noel was obviously flirting with Captain Kirk, her commanding officer. Lieutenant Saavik too in the scene in the turbo-lift before McCoy showed up. Although Admiral Kirk wasn't her commanding officer at that point.
It would be kind of fun to have had a Enterprise crewmember, maybe someone younger and sweet, who had a on-going flirtatious crush on Captain Picard. Especially if they kept finding themselves alone in shuttlecraft, lift cars and such situations. Maybe he could have been Picard's yeoman, that would have gotten him into Picard's quarters.
I have wondered what Worf's reaction would have been (when Dax returned to DS9) if "Ezri" had been a male Trill. It would have made for some interesting storytelling.
Been a while since I read that novel, remind me which way the author went with the taboo question.
Been a while since I read that novel, remind me which way the author went with the taboo question.
If I remember correctly, Admiral Krell had a husband.
Don't "strip" my quote for your own purpose...
Answer my original question if you can...
Yeah... it's always been about naked profit. The only time shows that challenge the status quo gets on the air is if the network thinks they can profit from it.
I don't why it's so important to a lot of people to include homosexual people in the series.... If the stories does call for homosexual characters, then include them in the stories. Don't just make one up just for the sake of homosexuals. If you are going to include one, or maybe several, then make up good story lines for them. Otherwise, you'll just perpetuating the myths that all gay guys are nothing more than sex and drug addled, no-good, little wusses, who can't do nothing but wine and scream like a girl.... Gay guy and transsexuals in Thailand are different than gay people over here. Over there if you make fun of them, some of them might beat the crap out of you and make you cry like a girl! 
Go watch "Beautiful Boxers" if you don't know what I'm talking about. [laugh]
People, who are gay and can kick you butt, rather stay in the closet here in the U.S. because of show like "Queer as Folks" and others, that love perpetuating this kind of stereotype. The UK version of "Queer as Folks" is different the U.S. version. [laugh]
Go watch "Beautiful Boxers" if you don't know what I'm talking about. [laugh]People, who are gay and can kick you butt, rather stay in the closet here in the U.S. because of show like "Queer as Folks" and others, that love perpetuating this kind of stereotype. The UK version of "Queer as Folks" is different the U.S. version. [laugh]
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Because LGBTs are oppressed today, and Star Trek is supposed to be about a future where everyone is equal. Therefore, it should make a sincere effort to depict groups that are currently oppressed and to depict them in an equal manner as it depicts non-oppressed groups.
I don't think gay people are oppressed.... some people may not agree with them, but they're not going to kill them. People, who hate gay people with a passion and kill them, are probably gay themselves, but can't admit it to themselves. Religious people don't agree with gay people, but they don't oppress gay people.
I think the attitude in this country may have contributed to the delinquent of a lot of young children these days and also gay people. All they think is fun, fun...! Drinking too much and blacking out everyday is not alright. That's not the smart or the right thing to do. People in other countries don't think like this. In fact they think it's a weakness...a flaw in characters. In Europe and Asia people have higher standard and better expectation for themselves. They think people who work hard, succeed in life and don't let life in general get to them, are strong...and they look up to these people.
I think the attitude in this country may have contributed to the delinquent of a lot of young children these days and also gay people. All they think is fun, fun...! Drinking too much and blacking out everyday is not alright. That's not the smart or the right thing to do. People in other countries don't think like this. In fact they think it's a weakness...a flaw in characters. In Europe and Asia people have higher standard and better expectation for themselves. They think people who work hard, succeed in life and don't let life in general get to them, are strong...and they look up to these people.
The problem is that people assume that including a gay character means that "everything" about that character will mark them out as a homosexual.
Imagine, say, Voyager. In the pilot, rather than telling Tuvok his wife misses him, Janeway tells him his husband misses him. Over the 7 years nothing is different about the character, except for the fact that we get occasional references to his husband back home.
Where would be the issue in that?
Imagine, say, Voyager. In the pilot, rather than telling Tuvok his wife misses him, Janeway tells him his husband misses him. Over the 7 years nothing is different about the character, except for the fact that we get occasional references to his husband back home.
Where would be the issue in that?
My cousin can't marry her fiance in the state in which they were born and raised because it's illegal there. They're too scared to walk down the street holding hands because someone might assault them for being lesbians.
And they're relatively lucky. In countries like Uganda, members of the government want to be able to kill you if you've been convicted of having homosexual relations multiple times. Members of the media will publish your photo and home address above the caption "Hang Them!" for being gay. And then people will do it.
And that's not counting victims of heterosexist oppression in North America like Matthew Shepard or Aaron Webster.
Nor is it counting, for instance, the oppression faced by transgendered people -- who face twice the rate of the general population (with transgendered persons of color having four times the general population's unemployment rate), 90% of whom report experiencing harassment or discrimination on the job, 47% of whom report being fired or denied a promotion, 19% of whom report being denied a home or apartment and 11% of whom report being evicted, 19% of whom reported experiencing homelessness, and 55% of whom were homeless report being harassed by homeless shelter staffs.
You're goddamn wrong if you think LGBTs aren't oppressed.
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That's different, though: Geordi is a main character, and our sympathy is with him. We laugh at him, but in a sympathetic sort of way. When it's a guest character flirting with a main character, though, the dynamics of the whole thing change -- it stops being like Geordi and starts being like Lwaxana. It'd be really hard for it not to become mean-spirited very quickly.
Okay, that would've been kind of fun. I guess it's not an inherently bad idea, but it's still very easy to do wrong.
It was mainly the "it freaks Picard out every time" bit that set me off. It immediately made me think Nightdiamond meant a character like a male version of Lwaxana. That would be a terrible idea.
The issue isn't so much that it's important to include, as it's important not to exclude. Gay people, bisexual people etc. make up somewhere between two and ten per cent of the general population -- if Star Trek really does show such an all-inclusive future for humanity, why is the representation of LGBT people exactly zero? The problem is it isn't fair.Paradon said:
I guess you're fortunate enough to live in a part of the world where that's true.Paradon said:
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