TBBS and treatment of women

[Shaw]

If you prefer to be 'one of the boys' thats fine.

Wow, that was uncalled for.

 

[Servo]

And i am telling you I PERSONALLY have never heard anyone use it.

So because you've never heard it used, that means no-one in America ever uses it? We've already had someone else say they've actively heard American women use the term. Is their word not as good as yours because they don't happen to have been a US citizen for 54 years?

I wasn't even complaining about its use, btw. How about reading the original posts before entering the conversation?

No, you were nitpicking out of lack of an actual point.

In fact "tits" has been used in reference to and old troller whenever a clearly controversial and lock-bound thread has appeared.

As for not being used in the US, I heard it several times uttered by women when I was in the US. Granted these where in their late teens, but even so.

Yeah, but apparently your opinion is irrelevant because you don't live in the US.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

This thread sure has gone well.

I think something has gotten lost in translation here because I am not advocating that we remove a bunch of words from the language or forbid people from using them in certain ways. I know some people wanted this to be a moderator issue and feel that the moderators can solve it, but I disagree.

I will also say that this is not an especially misogynistic or sexist forum. It's pretty tame as those things go. There are just certain threads and certain behaviors that pop up that I wanted to draw attention to. Whether or not anyone changes how they post, I just intended to point out that your words can be read in a way that you might not have considered. And that's all this was really about.

Most participants "get" that this wasn't about blaming or cracking down with rules or anything of the like, just a request for a little more consideration, respect, and thoughtfulness. If you're already set in your ways and refuse to change at all, there's not much I can do about that. If this thread has gotten you to examine your own behavior and make an effort to do better, then good. But if you came here to blame and censor and shout people down, then you totally missed the point and should go back and re-read from the beginning.

 

[Shaw]

Yeah, but apparently your opinion is irrelevant because you don't live in the US.

I've lived in the US for more than 43 years and I (unfortunately) have heard women use it. Sadly, most often to attack other women.

 

[JarodRussell]

Is that problem emerging on this board because... Trekkies don't know... how to treat women?

 

[Jetfire]

just a request for a little more consideration, respect, and thoughtfulness.

This and I don't think it is too much to ask for...some people come here to get away from things and explore their interests... unfortunately these things have been lacking here...it didn't use to be as bad as it is now...outside of TNZ.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Leader of a bizarre cult devoted to lobster-worship.

Now that I'd like to see... Acts of Cod, anyone?

(sorry about that. But IMHO, this thread is getting so angry that I thought a fish joke or two might lighten it up... )

How is it irrelevant? I'm telling you i've never heard an american woman use it. For her to say american women use it as much as women in the UK has no relevance at all. She doesn't even LIVE in the US, so how could she possibly know? And i am telling you I PERSONALLY have never heard anyone use it.

Me neither! Apart from the 'in before the lock' usage it has on this board, and the obvious sexual reference, of course. I may be only 41, but I've never heard it used in casual conversation by women either. Not that I've had that much of an opportunity to listen to women talk, but there we are.

 

[KimMH]

American women do say "tits" all the time but all the times I've heard it in 44 years it was used pejoratively. I've always considered it disrespectful and don't use it myself.

Americans do seem parochial to Europeans who have a longer history which may be why they seem less willing to examine the assumptions thier cultures are based upon. Americans are hyper-actively self-aware; we may be a little too self-aware/absorbed for the taste of others, but our relentless self-introspection makes us uniquely us. The very idea that a country can be created by disgruntled colonists was nothing new in theory, but in practice - well, we are still practicing.

 

[Franklin]

I've heard, "you stupid tit," used by the British (no, I don't mean "twit," but it must mean the same thing). But regardless of whether or not the word can have non-sexual intent, once it's invoked these boards, let's just say it quickly becomes sexual.

 

[cultcross]

I've heard, "you stupid tit," used by the British (no, I don't mean "twit," but it must mean the same thing).

Well yes it can be used as an insult, but you can use 'penis' in the same sentence to mean the same thing, and that neither makes the word 'penis' insulting or makes the sentence sexist.

 

[Jadzia]

American women do say "tits" all the time but all the times I've heard it in 44 years it was used pejoratively. I've always considered it disrespectful and don't use it myself.

In my experience, it's seldom used by women In England, but some women do use this word when talking about themselves "my tits", their friends "your tits", etc.

It's usage isn't automatically pejorative, but it will usually come across as vulgar and uncouth. Even then, the people who use it are not necessary unpleasant people.

A woman who lived near to me until last year would use this word all the time when talking about herself and others. She was quite unpleasant though.

 

[KimMH]

^^so the intent and context are insulting opposed to the actual word?

some of the offense comes from the user and the intended recipient - context I guess.

When that old radio guy (Imus?) called UConn's basketball players "nappy headed hoes" it was offensive because a rich old white guy calling young black women something that young black women sometimes jokingly call each other is completely different. The phrase is pejorative in origin, but sometimes people subvert insults to their own purposes. Using it in a camraderic sense states "I am one of you" and shows solidarity. Using it to mock others is offensive because insult is intended.

 

[Rincewiend]

Sorry, had to be done...

 

[Jadzia]

I think it's a word that has shock value even if it is not pejorative.

Where it's used most in non-pejorative ways is when it's adopted by a clique. A group can utilise the shock value of the word to pull/push others to/from their clique. Such language can also reinforce the social bonds of the group and be empowering.

Outside of that context, (where context is ambiguous or not understood) I feel the word is most likely to cause insult, and come across as vulgar and uncouth.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

American women do say "tits" all the time but all the times I've heard it in 44 years it was used pejoratively. I've always considered it disrespectful and don't use it myself.

In my experience, it's seldom used by women In England, but some women do use this word when talking about themselves "my tits", their friends "your tits", etc.

It's usage isn't automatically pejorative, but it will usually come across as vulgar and uncouth. Even then, the people who use it are not necessary unpleasant people.

Yeah, I think it's important to distinguish between crude language and sexist language. Using the word tits doesn't necessarily have to be sexist at all.

 

[Mr Silver]

I've been reading through this thread since it began, but i've been reluctant to share my views, however for the sake of creating some discussion, I will do just that.

I don't think TBBS and Mistreatment of Women should go together. The forum is no where near as bad as other sites on the Internet and the level of misogynistic attitudes is well within the normal operating levels for a message board. I've seen maybe 2 or 3 threads, since i've been here that have blatantly displayed negative views on women and each one of them was promptly dealt with, I'd imagine this was due to T'Bonz thread highlighting a past trend of hurtful remarks made against female posters or women in general.

In my experience, Men are percieved as sexist as a rule, because unlike most women, men are vocal about their dislike of the opposite sex, whereas most women will talk amongst themselves when they have an issue. I'm not defending my own kind, I agree that theres a great deal of complete Fuckwit Men out there who aren't helping society by displaying misogynistic behavioral traits and who don't bat an eyelid about publicly demeaning their Wives/Fiances/Girlfriends.

I think a lot of Men are under the assumption that Women like it when they talk Sexist and appear obsessed with Sex and in some ways thats correct, some Women like Men being Men or at least 'Being Men' in their percieved notions, that Men are Dominant, Focussed on Sex and Misguided, which leads such a Female to believe that they can and need to change respective Man, I think you can fill in the rest yourselves!

I have a theory. The theory that because of the Anonomous nature of the Internet, that some 'Less Confident' Men, use it as a tool to experiment with assertive ways of talking to Women, such as imitating other types of Men or indeed taking out their frustrations on Women and seeing how they will react to it. Some people may argue that this is a healthy way to experiment with Social Confidence and release pent up emotions, however what these people don't seem to realise that on the Internet, especially Message Boards, Social Communities are formed and people react in their posts the same way or similar as to how they'd react in RL.

The Internet is responsible for bringing down Social Barriers and allowing people to not only be confident in being themselves, but create alternate personas and insult and argue away without any real consequences.

I think the best thing someone can do is to curb their enthusiasm, so to speak, unless it is welcome in Online Social Communities.

 

[mimic]

Specifically I would appreciate it if posters just refrained from saying anything online that they would not say to another individual in person. For example, I really doubt that various posters, if confronted by Miley Cyrus, would ask her if she's legal yet, or call Christina Hendricks a 'butterface.' You also wouldn't get all of the 'she/he doesn't do anything for me' comments, which imply that a person is only worth what he or she can do for another sexually. I think that's certainly worth a dialog, but if we can't have civil discourse on the subject, forget it.

Are you saying you've never made similar comments about Brad Pitt, or Daniel Radcliffe or any other male celebrity.

That's exactly what I'm saying. You'll notice I worded my post so that it applies to both genders, as it should apply to both genders.

 

[Jenee]

Specifically I would appreciate it if posters just refrained from saying anything online that they would not say to another individual in person. For example, I really doubt that various posters, if confronted by Miley Cyrus, would ask her if she's legal yet, or call Christina Hendricks a 'butterface.' You also wouldn't get all of the 'she/he doesn't do anything for me' comments, which imply that a person is only worth what he or she can do for another sexually. I think that's certainly worth a dialog, but if we can't have civil discourse on the subject, forget it.

Are you saying you've never made similar comments about Brad Pitt, or Daniel Radcliffe or any other male celebrity.

That's exactly what I'm saying. You'll notice I worded my post so that it applies to both genders, as it should apply to both genders.

Really? Cuz I'd definitely do Brad Pitt, wheras Daniel Radcliffe does nothing for me. He's a cute kid, but ... he's a kid.

 

[Yeoman Randi]

I feel the need to clear up something. My words have been twisted as has the original meaning to my post. But there are a few posters here that love to do that, especially when it comes to MY posts. So for those that missed my point or didnt bother reading all the way through:

Something's been bothering me lately. It's something I only peripherally noticed at first, but lately it's been more and more in-my-face. The Christina Aguilera/national anthem thread really clinched it for me, I think.

"Pop tramp," "pop tart," etc. As if a woman should be defined primarily by the fact that she is a woman, and being a woman is a bad thing, particularly if she appears to be the least bit in control of her sexuality. What is this, the 1950s?

Elsewhere, you have women getting called "bitches" or "cunts," which is just so casually done around here few people even bat an eye, and it amazes me. A woman can't just do something bad, no, she's a bitch if she does something bad--it becomes her whole identity. You sum up her entire being in one hateful word, inextricably bound up in her gender as if being born female is an insult in and of itself. Do people even pay attention to how they talk and how their words are perceived?

On the flip side of it, you get comments like "I'd hit it," avatars with bouncing tits, threads about whether or not a given female celebrity is hot. You get the guys who kiss ass and suck up to female posters, oblivious to the fact that it's not attractive or friendly, it's creepy. (This is something I've had to face on my own forums, I just notice it happens here, too.)

I guess this came out as more of a rant than I intended, it all just makes me kind of ashamed to be a male posting around here. The behavior towards women here is often so very inappropriate yet simultaneously so entrenched it's as if nothing can be done about it. This isn't something I expect the admins and mods to fix--it's so ingrained I don't think any level of moderator intervention is going to correct it. But I want to offer this thread as an opportunity to reflect. Think about the things you've said here and if they're really appropriate and what kind of light they shed on your character. If you don't think you're "that guy," take a closer look and make damn sure.

Pre-empting some likely tangents: women do sometimes abet this type of behavior, and engage in it toward men, but it doesn't seem to be nearly as prevalent as what I described above. I am not against discussing all of those angles but I would really like to see discussion of the main point, too.

My response to Robert's using the word "tits" in his commentary about respect, various words used, etc. I've put in bold the paragraph that is relative to this:

This. I made a comment about this just a couple of days ago in some other thread. People ask for opinions and then if someone doesn't agree with the opinion the "offending" poster is ridiculed and ridden. I find it all very tiring.

I agree with Jenee, if you have a problem with the "hot babe" threads, don't go in there. What i cannot escape (and wish i could) are the avatars that are there, in your face, no matter what thread you are in, which feature women with large breasts that are barely covered. Nobody questions whether or not that is acceptable....

Robert, i do appreciate your bringing this topic up. I hope you know that i like and respect you very much outside of the BBS, but i have to admit, i am uncomfortable with your statement, "On the flip side of it, you get comments like "I'd hit it," avatars with bouncing tits, threads about whether or not a given female celebrity is hot."

By using the word "tits" the way you did...it just doesn't seem in keeping with what you are trying to say. Please don't be upset with me, i am not trying to 'call you out' on this. I'm just saying.

Robert clearly understood the point i was trying to make, and we moved on. Oddly it seems, he got the point but certain other posters didn't.

Yeah, I admit I was being crass there, but thank you for illustrating my point for me! I shouldn't have used that word in that context and you picked up on it pretty quickly. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

I know I'm not perfect, I just try to do better. I'm not asking anyone else to be perfect, either, just to try to be more considerate and thoughtful before posting.

As for this comment that had nothing to do with me:

Capable sportswoman. But is she hot? Actor in a sci-fi show. But is she hot? Upstanding politician on your side. But is she hot? Batshit politician on the other side. But is she hot? Defendent in a murder trial. But is she hot? Leader of a bizarre cult devoted to lobster-worship. But is she hot?

Sorry, but it is hard to take this seriously considering your avatar.

You should change it to something that doesn't contribute to the problems you are pointing out.

... if you do want to be taken seriously.

Am i missing something here? What is wrong with her avatar? Its a picture of an animated character.

I've left out the extraneous posts that were an attempt to twist my words and goad me, but move on to:

That little nugget of anecdotal evidence is about as irrelevant and unsubstatiated as you're claiming Deckerd's is.

People have been using the word "tits" on this board for a variety of reasons ever since I can remember (and I've been here since 1999). How many times have you complained about its use, or notified a mod that it offended you before now?

I've never reported it and i never would. I am NOT looking for censorship. You have completely missed my original point. It is NOT my fault if you and a couple of other posters twisted my words and original meaning.


And for you posters outside the US : if you still think theres a problem on the BBS regarding American posters, then i suggest you open a thread about it.

 

[6079SmithW]

Since the above posters have not mentioned it, I'll just say that I find Rincewiend's choice of avatar to be extremely ironic given his thread bomb and the current thread topic.

On topic, I have found TBBS to be a very tame and controlled site overall, in no small part due to the efforts of the mods. I appreciate their effort to make this site as civilized as possible. Seriously, youtube, the imdb boards, and even the amazon forums really piss me off sometimes with the lack of any moderation. The amount of trolling/flaming, sexism, racism, and general immaturity that goes on at these sites is infuriating.