Indy useless in Raiders...

[Professor Zoom]

I didn't read the whole plot holes in Indy IV thread... but it did make me think of a conversation I had with a friend about Raiders.

He pointed out that Indiana Jones could be removed from Raiders and the results would be basically the same--except for the US getting the ark at the end.

I tried to think of a moment throughout the movie where Indiana affects the course of the movie, and I couldn't.

He fails through out the movie and in the end a Deus Ex Machina kills all the Nazi's. In fact, again, doing NOTHING stopped them--close your eyes...

Nothing he does prevents the Nazi's... sure, challenges them, delays them, but it's the same result if he hadn't gotten involved.

His involvement caused more death and destruction, with the same result...

I mean, if Indy hadn't gotten involved...

The Nazi's STILL would have gotten the Ra thing, but Marion's bar wouldn't have burnt down.

The Nazi's would have fround the maproom sooner and gotten the arc, several swordsmen and german soldiers would have been alive.

One truck and plane would have been around... maybe in someone's collection today.

Several archilogical sites wouldn't have been destroyed-- the snake room...

Didn't the ship that was carrying Marion and Indy, didn't the crew all get killed? Don't remember...

And there would be this creepy island with all of these melted Nazi's and German soldiers...

Still... a great movie...

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Yeah, this has been remarked upon often and I do get a kick out of it - that everything ends up the same in Raiders if Indy just decides to stay home and teach his class.

 

[Tom]

Hmm.. interesting points.. originally they were going to fly the Ark straight to Germany before Indy got involved and the plane was destroyed. Bellock was the one who insisted on have a Jewish ceremony, and opening the Ark first on the island, since the Sub was going there anyways. Concevably, the ark could have been opened in front of Hitler first, killing him and preventing WWII.

The thing is, was it the ceremony that conjured up the ghosts or just opening the ark in general?? So if Hitler opened the ark outright would he have died by the ghosts..hmm


Another possiblity is in the beginning of the film if Indy were not there, it could have been Bellock getting the artifact and thus run over by the boulder, and thus him not helping the Germans. lol

 

[UssGlenn]

The Nazi's STILL would have gotten the Ra thing, but Marion's bar wouldn't have burnt down.

Didn't the ship that was carrying Marion and Indy, didn't the crew all get killed? Don't remember...

Depending on Marions mood, she could very well have been killed or disfigured by the Nazis had Indy not been there to save her. I see her interaction with Toht going pretty much the same without her meeting with Indy first.

And the ship was not blown up, they threaten to blow it up but ultimately don't.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Yeah, this has been remarked upon often and I do get a kick out of it - that everything ends up the same in Raiders if Indy just decides to stay home and teach his class.

You have to wonder if any of the principles involved in the making of the movie realized and or cared... It's funny to think about...

 

[Silvercrest]

I was going to say that they wouldn't have found the map room without Indy. Then I remembered that without his interference they would have gotten the headpiece and not relied on an incomplete inscription to find it.

But the Nazis wouldn't have gotten anywhere if Belloq was run over by the boulder! I agree with Tom. Funny stuff.

 

[Gaith]

Well, Indy and Marcus tell of the legend that no army that carries the Ark before it can be defeated... so it's possible that, had the Nazis gotten the Ark, opened it and had everyone nearby wiped out, they would have learned their lesson, kept it closed, and carried it to victory - thus making Indy's efforts world-saving.

But you want a movie where the humans unequivocally do the winning, watch The Mummy.

 

[Holdfast]

This is actually one of the reasons I'm not as fond of Raiders as a lot of other people are. The set pieces and the characters are truly brilliant; but the story is weak, so I don't like rewatching it (and never bothered getting the DVD). First time round it was fun, of course.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

^^

I always find it interesting how we are able to go back to these legendary films, and see they weren't as 'smart' as they claimed to be.

(I see that happening for 'Inception' in a couple of years. Although, I've already mentioned to a friend that I wasn't impressed; and, it didn't do really anything new).

 

[theenglish]

Incepption was a fun film for what it was, a smart action flick. But there was nothing spectacularly philosophical about it.

As for Indy, I thought the point was that Hitler would have been unbeatable if he had the arc, so Indy prevented that from happening.

 

[Chekov's Phaser]

I too had never really thought of Indy's futility in Raiders until reading this. The only thing I can think of that gives Indy some way in impacting the events is if after all of the Nazis are dead, Indy had to have a hand in getting the arc in U.S. hands. Remember they where still on that island that had a Nazi base, so theoretically the Nazis could have just scooped it back up if Indy hadn't have been there. So all the events of the movie led Indy to be in a position to snatch up the arc when all of the bad guys are dead.

 

[Silvercrest]

As for Indy, I thought the point was that Hitler would have been unbeatable if he had the arc, so Indy prevented that from happening.

That was the assumption they were making, but it was wrong. The Ark proved it wasn't just a tool to be used, and that it could take care of itself regardless of what Indy did, for reasons described below.

Concevably, the ark could have been opened in front of Hitler first, killing him and preventing WWII.

The thing is, was it the ceremony that conjured up the ghosts or just opening the ark in general?? So if Hitler opened the ark outright would he have died by the ghosts..hmm

Yes, he would have. The Ark made it pretty clear it didn't like being in the possession of the Nazis, which is why it burned off the swastika while it was still in the ship. Opening the Ark would have killed anyone whether they performed the ritual or not, except MAYBE a devout Jewish priest.

If Hitler kept it closed, I doubt it would have done anything for him, and it certainly wouldn't make him unbeatable.

 

[TedShatner10]

The Ark seemed to hate everyone and was unusable to mortal humans, but THAT was the twist in the story.

And at the end of the story Indy did the meaningful thing of getting Marion out of the adventure alive.

 

[TeknoNurd]

Of course, this is only somewhat true if you think the movie is about the Lost Ark. I rather thought it was ONE of Indy's adventures, that involved the Ark, where he kept failing, but kept coming back for more, with a "never say die" attitude, until ultimately he was in the right place at the right time to prevail.

 

[RJDiogenes]

It's not his fault!

Oh, wait, that was Solo....

 

[Argus Skyhawk]

The Nazi's STILL would have gotten the Ra thing, but Marion's bar wouldn't have burnt down.

Marion would have been tortured, and would still be stuck in that dive. I'd say Indy did some good there.

Still, those were some interesting observations.

 

[Nardpuncher]

The thing is you need to try really hard to think of this kind of thing for Raiders. My grandma could see the problems with Indy IV and she's been dead for 30 years.

 

[theenglish]

I have been thinking about this thread all day and cannot believe that I never really thought about it before. But it is true, Indy is pretty useless to the plot.

Consider this, however. He is pretty useless in Crusade and Kingdom as well. At the end the characters have achieved nothing. Indy has learned about history and about himself as a person. Perhaps this is really what the point of each of these movies is?

 

[Gaith]

If Hitler kept it closed, I doubt it would have done anything for him, and it certainly wouldn't make him unbeatable.

Given what we've seen, that's an entirely credible piece of speculation, but it's speculation nonetheless, and it could indeed be wrong. We just don't know.

 

[Silvercrest]

If Hitler kept it closed, I doubt it would have done anything for him, and it certainly wouldn't make him unbeatable.

Given what we've seen, that's an entirely credible piece of speculation, but it's speculation nonetheless, and it could indeed be wrong. We just don't know.

Oh, it could be wrong. But after all, the Nazis had the Ark taken away from them once, and almost lost it a second time except that Indy couldn't pull the trigger. Unbeatable?

Anyway, based on how the Ark didn't seem to like the swastika, it's verrry likely that if the Nazis kept it around, they would not enjoy the experience. Boils. Locusts. Water turning to blood. Dogs and cats living together.

The Ark seemed to hate everyone

I'm not sure I agree with this. It sure didn't like Belloq and the Nazis, but it spared Indy and Marian, apparently because they showed it the proper respect.

Respect, that's what it's about. No wonder the Ark was so mad. "I get no respect, I tell ya. An archaeologist dug me up once. Then he started talking about Noah! No respect!"