Have any of the novels ever just made you mad? (

[RandyS]

When the Romulan War novel ended before the war did. That kind of pissed me off. Of course that was before we knew that another novel in the series was forthcoming.

You've just saved me from massive disapointment. My copy has sit on the shelf for a year unread, and it can stay there until the story is finished.

Thanks.

 

[JD]

As I said:
"Photon torpedos can be scaled down to destroy only a ship?
Thalaron weapons can also be scaled down to destroy only a ship ('thalaron radiation can encompass a ship - or a planet' - Nemesis)."
No difference here.

The difference is that in general, the thaleron radiation is used as a WMD, but a photon torpedo isn't. So there really is no moral inconsistency for the characters. They don't consider the photon torpedoes they usually use as WMDs.

What 'in general'?
A thalaron weapon was almost used once, in Nemesis, to destroy a ship.

Photon torpedos were used multiple times as WMDs, not just to destroy ships.

'They' are hypocrites if they don't consider photon torpedos WMDs.

A nuclear warhead can also be built so small that it only damages a single building. But that doesn't make a load of dynamite achieving the same a WMD.

But you can't put together enough dynamite (not in any practical way) to destroy a city.
Nukes can easily destroy cities - that's why they're WMDs.

Photon torpedos can easily be modified to destroy a planet - that's why they're WMDs.


By definition, a weapon is a WMD if it has the potential to kill/destroy on a massive scale.
Photon torpedos easily fit this definition - they ARE WMDs.

Hell by that definition even a handgun could be a WMD.

Here's the Oxford Dictionary Definitition:
a chemical, biological or radioactive weapon capable of causing widespread death and destruction.
So yes for Thalaron weapons are WMDs, sine they're Thalaron is form of raditation, but PTs aren't. Like someone else said they're just missiles basically so they don't fit that definition as much as you may like them to.

 

[BillJ]

The difference is that in general, the thaleron radiation is used as a WMD, but a photon torpedo isn't. So there really is no moral inconsistency for the characters. They don't consider the photon torpedoes they usually use as WMDs.

What 'in general'?
A thalaron weapon was almost used once, in Nemesis, to destroy a ship.

Photon torpedos were used multiple times as WMDs, not just to destroy ships.

'They' are hypocrites if they don't consider photon torpedos WMDs.

A nuclear warhead can also be built so small that it only damages a single building. But that doesn't make a load of dynamite achieving the same a WMD.

But you can't put together enough dynamite (not in any practical way) to destroy a city.
Nukes can easily destroy cities - that's why they're WMDs.

Photon torpedos can easily be modified to destroy a planet - that's why they're WMDs.


By definition, a weapon is a WMD if it has the potential to kill/destroy on a massive scale.
Photon torpedos easily fit this definition - they ARE WMDs.

Hell by that definition even a handgun could be a WMD.

Here's the Oxford Dictionary Definitition:
a chemical, biological or radioactive weapon capable of causing widespread death and destruction.
So yes for Thalaron weapons are WMDs, sine they're Thalaron is form of raditation, but PTs aren't. Like someone else said they're just missiles basically so they don't fit that definition as much as you may like them to.

I would think that anti-matter is radioactive (Spock died from radiation exposure while working on the intermix chamber), which is what they arm photon torpedoes with.

By strictest definition... the photon torpedo is the delivery system. But anti-matter can be used as a WMD.

 

[JarodRussell]

Two times? Here's no 3 and 4:

Ent: 'Affliction/Divergence' - the klingons were destroying their own colonies, killing millions of their people, with photon torpedos and disruptors.

TOS: "A taste of Armageddon' - Kirk threatened to destroy an entire planet - Eminiar VII - with photon torpedoes and phasers.

So the Klingons used them. And Captain Kirk, more than hundred years before the events of Destiny, threatened to destroy and entire planet with them.

The Federation is just inconsistent with its application of its own morals. Sisko rendered an entire world uninhabitable to human life.

It's more like the writing staff over five series and ten movies is inconsistent. And Sisko is not Picard.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The difference is that in general, the thaleron radiation is used as a WMD, but a photon torpedo isn't. So there really is no moral inconsistency for the characters. They don't consider the photon torpedoes they usually use as WMDs.

What 'in general'?
A thalaron weapon was almost used once, in Nemesis, to destroy a ship.

Photon torpedos were used multiple times as WMDs, not just to destroy ships.

'They' are hypocrites if they don't consider photon torpedos WMDs.

A nuclear warhead can also be built so small that it only damages a single building. But that doesn't make a load of dynamite achieving the same a WMD.

But you can't put together enough dynamite (not in any practical way) to destroy a city.
Nukes can easily destroy cities - that's why they're WMDs.

Photon torpedos can easily be modified to destroy a planet - that's why they're WMDs.


By definition, a weapon is a WMD if it has the potential to kill/destroy on a massive scale.
Photon torpedos easily fit this definition - they ARE WMDs.

Hell by that definition even a handgun could be a WMD.

Here's the Oxford Dictionary Definitition:
a chemical, biological or radioactive weapon capable of causing widespread death and destruction.
So yes for Thalaron weapons are WMDs, sine they're Thalaron is form of raditation, but PTs aren't. Like someone else said they're just missiles basically so they don't fit that definition as much as you may like them to.

"a chemical, biological or radioactive weapon capable of causing widespread death and destruction." = "a weapon is a WMD if it has the potential to kill/destroy on a massive scale."

PS - A shotgun is a WMD but a matter/antimatter warhead (that also operates by turning atomic mass into energy - aka 'radioactive' - but is far more destructive than current nuclear warheads) is not a WMD? Really, JD?

 

[Christopher]

I would think that anti-matter is radioactive (Spock died from radiation exposure while working on the intermix chamber), which is what they arm photon torpedoes with.

No, it isn't, not by itself. Antihydrogen or antideuterium is no more radioactive than normal hydrogen or deuterium -- the only difference between the two is that they have opposite electric charges. Trek's various references to "antimatter radiation," or the Malon's "antimatter waste," are pure technobabble. You get radiation when antimatter annihilated with matter and was converted to gamma rays, pions, and neutrinos, but that's not the same as radioactivity, which means the decay of unstable atomic nuclei. The only isotope of hydrogen or antihydrogen that's radioactive is tritium/antitritium, and that's not used in warp engines.

Basically the whole idea of TWOK's "radiation chamber" was bogus, just some random piece they stuck into the set as a plot device for killing Spock. It makes no engineering sense in its placement (off to the side, unconnected to the reactor shaft) and there's no explanation for the source of all the radiation. Since the main engines aren't online at the time, I'd assume there's no annihilation reaction taking place, so there'd be no gamma/pions/etc. from that reaction.


As for photon torpedoes, in theory, they should be powerful enough to count as WMDs, since by all rights the yield of an antimatter warhead should be substantially greater than the yield of a nuclear warhead. (A single gram of antimatter reacting with an equal amount of matter would produce a blast the size of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs combined.) In practice, however, photon and quantum torpedoes are often treated by writers and FX artists as little more than cannonballs or artillery shells.

And that's understandable from a dramatic standpoint. I mean, let's face it, realistically, if you have large quantities of antimatter, you don't need any more exotic kinds of WMDs. Hell, if you have impulse drive, that alone gives you the potential to destroy an entire planet, just by sticking an impulse engine on a small asteroid and accelerating it to a high sublight velocity. So really, in a universe with the kind of tech that ST has, there should be no need for stories about new forms of weapon or destructive force that needs to be contained, like polaric ion power or thalaron radiation or other bits of gibberish. They already use technology on a planet-cleansing level on a daily basis. But sometimes they need to tell a story about a powerful, scary new weapon, so the sheer devastating potential of their everyday technology tends to get glossed over.

So the question about whether photon torpedoes and thalaron weapons both count as WMDs is kind of impossible to answer, since it's a clash of two incompatible assumptions. In a universe that realistically portrayed photorps as WMDs, there'd be no need to postulate a BS particle-of-the-week like thalarons in the first place. Conversely, a universe that does have a storytelling need for "ultimate weapons" like thalarons is one that's choosing to gloss over the destructive power of antimatter weapons and treat them as if they were conventional weaponry.

 

[BillJ]

It's more like the writing staff over five series and ten movies is inconsistent.

Which is what we're dealing with. But let's not forget that the Federation violated its own stand on using technology from the future (Temporal Prime Directive) and Janeway/Worf violated the Treaty of Algeron during the Borg crisis. Yet they prosecuted Admiral Pressman for developing a cloak in The Pegasus.

Picard even wanted the transphasic technology from the future more widely distributed.

It's like watching a preacher go on about the immorality of sex , then you find out he's paying hookers with money out of the donation plate.

And Sisko is not Picard.

Thank God! Picard would've handed over the Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Two times? Here's no 3 and 4:

Ent: 'Affliction/Divergence' - the klingons were destroying their own colonies, killing millions of their people, with photon torpedos and disruptors.

TOS: "A taste of Armageddon' - Kirk threatened to destroy an entire planet - Eminiar VII - with photon torpedoes and phasers.

So the Klingons used them. And Captain Kirk, more than hundred years before the events of Destiny, threatened to destroy and entire planet with them.

You forgot to mention the already established:
"DS9: 'The die is cast' - A romulan/cardassian fleet is in the process of turning the founders' home world into rubble by using photon torpedos and disruptors."

And
"Voy: 'The omega directive' - Kim puts enough antimatter into a photon torpedo warhead to, in his own words "blow up a small planet"."

And other examples:
In DS9: 'Blaze of glory', Sisko used biological weapons to poison an entire planet without hesitation or any connsequences whatsoever.

And
In DS9: 'Broken link', it is established, through Garack, that one could use Defiant's on-board 'standard armaments' to destroy an entire world by simply pressing a few buttons (no elaborate armament modifications).

And
In DS9: 'The adversary', again, it is again established that Defiant's armaments could destroy a colony.

And these are probably STILL not all instances of so-called 'standard', 'moral' federation armaments being established as, clearly, weapons of mass destruction.

And I haven't even considered trek lit - only on-screen canon.

 

[BillJ]

Conversely, a universe that does have a storytelling need for "ultimate weapons" like thalarons is one that's choosing to gloss over the destructive power of antimatter weapons and treat them as if they were conventional weaponry.

Interesting explanation. Thanks for taking the time to set that part of the equation straight.

I do think that in the 24th century, anti-matter weapons would probably seem conventional. Since they are better than a century old and seemingly all major and minor powers have access to them.

Still doesn't mean I agree with you about Destiny.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Thalaron weapon can - possibly (that's an interpretation on your part, Therin) - give a painful death?

I believe this was demonstrated quite adequately in "Nemesis". But isn't the objection in "Destiny" mainly the fact that it's a banned biogenic weapon, as I quoted from Memory Alpha many posts back?

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Thalaron_radiation

And your posts have been filled with "interpretations".

 

[JarodRussell]

Thalaron weapon can - possibly (that's an interpretation on your part, Therin) - give a painful death?

I believe this was demonstrated quite adequately in "Nemesis". But isn't the objection in "Destiny" mainly the fact that it's a banned biogenic weapon, as I quoted from Memory Alpha many posts back?

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Thalaron_radiation

And your posts have been filled with "interpretations".

Yeah well, basically, they didn't want to use Thalaron radiation because they would betray the values of the Federation.

It's a version of the "if we use violence we will become like them and lose what we are" morale.
Picard also wouldn't torture a prisoner even if he could save 1 million lives with that information.

 

[Nardpuncher]

It seems to me that 95% of Christopher's responses start with something that is there to contradict someone else.
That's something he should get checked out, because it seems to be a little bit beyond normal discussion/bringing up alternate viewpoints sort of thing.

 

[JarodRussell]

It seems to me that 95% of Christopher's responses start with something that is there to contradict someone else.
That's something he should get checked out, because it seems to be a little bit beyond normal discussion/bringing up alternate viewpoints sort of thing.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that.

 

[BillJ]

It's a version of the "if we use violence we will become like them and lose what we are" morale.
Picard also wouldn't torture a prisoner even if he could save 1 million lives with that information.

Why is it okay to use one technology that you've obviously banned, but not okay to use another weapon that you've banned?

I find it interesting that "Transphasic torpedoes" violate not only the Federations own "Temporal Prime Directive", but it would also seemingly violate the "Khitomer Accords" ban on subspace weapons as mentioned in Insurrection.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Transphasic_torpedo

According to the Pocket Books novel Greater than the Sum, transphasic torpedoes were in fact kept by Starfleet as the weapon of last resort to be deployed to starships only when all else had failed against the Borg. They were the one and only thing Starfleet knew the Borg had not yet adapted to and for that reason wanted to keep this ace in the hole for as long as possible.

The warhead technology of the torpedoes was also revealed in the novel. It is based on generating a destructive subspace compression pulse. Upon detonation the torpedo delivers the pulse in an asymmetric superposition of multiple phase states. Shields can only block one subcomponent of the pulse. The other subcomponents deliver the majority of the pulse to the target. Every torpedo has a different transphasic configuration, generated randomly by a dissonant feedback effect to prevent the Borg from predicting the configuration of the phase states.

I think that the hypocrisy in this particular thread is what bothers me most. Wanna say ol' Picard fell off the "Sanity Wagon" and use that to explain his actions... fine. But don't try to make it sound like he was on some type of moral highground.

 

[BillJ]

It seems to me that 95% of Christopher's responses start with something that is there to contradict someone else.
That's something he should get checked out, because it seems to be a little bit beyond normal discussion/bringing up alternate viewpoints sort of thing.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that.

That's just Christopher. I actually find alot of his posts interesting/educational. You just sometimes have to cut through the attitude.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I recall one instance, when I remarked that the writers in general had given impressions, when I had suggested way back when that the Typhon Pact Series looked like a cold war in the making (which it is), that I and others were too eager for more clashes between powers.

Chris somehow got the impression that I was accusing him of lying (which I didn't realize I even came close to saying)--and then, in the same post, admitted that sometimes, he and the other do give impressions on future tales that might be misleading (which I did say).

I made it a point to apologize to him--twice--for any misconceptions I had wrought. (The second time was a PM.) To this day...he has yet to respond. And even now, he has yet to respond to anything I say on these threads.

Chris...my apology was absolutely sincere. It was not, nor has it ever been, my intention to smear the writers of Trek in any way. I sincerely hope I am not on your ignore list...but whether I am or not, I am extending an olive branch. Please, sir...can not at least reconcile?

 

[Destructor]

I actually find alot of his posts interesting/educational. You just sometimes have to cut through the attitude.

We have butted heads before, but I actually think he is one of the most valuable posters on the BBS, I'm a big fan.

 

[JarodRussell]

But don't try to make it sound like he was on some type of moral highground.

LOL, you make it sound like I had anything to lose, prove or justify about these books.

 

[JWolf]

One book that really was awful was and still is Enterprise: The First Adventure by Vonda A. McIntyre. The store was silly and a lot of characters were just so far out of character. I highly doubt Kirk's first mission as the Captain of the Enterprise would be to ferry circus people. It just reeked of fan wank that did not work at all.

 

[Nardpuncher]

I recall one instance, when I remarked that the writers in general had given impressions, when I had suggested way back when that the Typhon Pact Series looked like a cold war in the making (which it is), that I and others were too eager for more clashes between powers.

Chris somehow got the impression that I was accusing him of lying (which I didn't realize I even came close to saying)--and then, in the same post, admitted that sometimes, he and the other do give impressions on future tales that might be misleading (which I did say).

I made it a point to apologize to him--twice--for any misconceptions I had wrought. (The second time was a PM.) To this day...he has yet to respond. And even now, he has yet to respond to anything I say on these threads.

Chris...my apology was absolutely sincere. It was not, nor has it ever been, my intention to smear the writers of Trek in any way. I sincerely hope I am not on your ignore list...but whether I am or not, I am extending an olive branch. Please, sir...can not at least reconcile?

He's likely got you on ignore. He certainly has me on it.