Have any of the novels ever just made you mad? (

[Therin of Andor]

And both photon torpedos (matter/antimatter warheads) and thalaron radiation have the potential to kill/destroy on a massive scale.

So why haven't you been campaigning against Federation use of photon torpedoes since they were first mentioned in TOS in the 60s?

 

[BillJ]

And both photon torpedos (matter/antimatter warheads) and thalaron radiation have the potential to kill/destroy on a massive scale.

So why haven't you been campaigning against Federation use of photon torpedoes since they were first mentioned in TOS in the 60s?

I think he's just pointing out the hypocritical nature of using one weapon of mass destruction vs. not using another on moral grounds.

 

[JarodRussell]

Though the photon torpedoes I've seen throughout Trek never were weapons of mass destruction. They have the explosive force of plot, which was pretty low most of the time. The only time a single torpedo managed to destroy a ship was in ST III. On any other occasion a torpedo hit a ship without shields the damage was minimal.

Tell me, how are we as readers expected to read this:

"Picard was on all fours, doubled over, face almost touching the carpeting of the bridge, hyperventilating and sobbing. Then he stopped with a sharp intake of breath and he clawed at the deck for several seconds before bunching his hands into fists under his chin. His body quaked as if he'd just come in from the cold."

Keep reading p402 onward of Lost Souls and tell me I'm wrong insofar as the trilogy is concerned (as distinct from RL - which inexplicably you dove into and then decided to hold me responsible for).

"As desparately as Riker wanted to defend Picard's pride by concealing this display from the rest of the bridge crew, he knew that it would even more damaging to see their captain carried off the bridge." Lost Souls.

Haha, good thing it ain't canon. I somehow can't imagine Patrick Stewart agree to play Picard like this.

 

[Nardpuncher]

I haven't read the books after the Destiny trilogy...can you tell me what made Picard do that?

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think he's just pointing out the hypocritical nature of using one weapon of mass destruction vs. not using another on moral grounds.

Sure. Obviously. But to me, they seem to be quite different. A photon torpedo simply blows things up, in self defense... but thalaron gets into the cells of humanoid victims and slowly, slowly, slowly turns their body, excruciatingly, into necrotic tissue, then ash.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I somehow can't imagine Patrick Stewart agree to play Picard like this.

I dunno, we saw Sisko - as Benny Russell - have a breakdown in "Far Beyond the Stars" that was very painful to watch. Actors love to sink their teeth into this kind of role. And we saw Patrick Stewart play Picard at pretty low points in "The Best of Both Worlds" and "Generations".

 

[BillJ]

I think he's just pointing out the hypocritical nature of using one weapon of mass destruction vs. not using another on moral grounds.

Sure. Obviously. But to me, they seem to be quite different. A photon torpedo simply blows things up, in self defense... but thalaron gets into the cells of humanoid victims and slowly, slowly, slowly turns their body, excruciatingly, into necrotic tissue, then ash.

Dead is dead.

But I'm sure that those at the center of a photon blast are killed instantaneously... but those on the fringes probably experience the same conditions as those exposed to a nuclear blast.

In space I'm sure some die from the explosion, some die from explosive decompression and some probably die slowly, locked in compartments as oxygen runs out.

 

[Christopher]

"Picard was on all fours, doubled over, face almost touching the carpeting of the bridge, hyperventilating and sobbing. Then he stopped with a sharp intake of breath and he clawed at the deck for several seconds before bunching his hands into fists under his chin. His body quaked as if he'd just come in from the cold."

Keep reading p402 onward of Lost Souls and tell me I'm wrong insofar as the trilogy is concerned...

You couldn't possibly be more wrong if you interpret that scene as evidence that Picard was mentally unstable. Did you not recognize the context of those events? That happened during the transformation of the Borg by the Caeliar. We've known since First Contact that Picard has a persistent psionic link to the Borg Collective. When they're close enough, he feels what they feel. That fact was clearly and consistently re-established throughout Destiny. At that exact moment, the entire Borg Collective was undergoing a profound, traumatic, joyous transformation -- an entire race of quadrillions of beings simultaneously undergoing a seismic process of liberation and transcendence. And Picard's brain was tuned into that overwhelming experience.

So of course that wasn't a mental breakdown or a delusion. That was Picard being overwhelmed by an unimaginably powerful external influence. He wasn't out of touch with reality; he was experiencing an overpowering reality that nobody else on the bridge was able to tap into, the same very, very real phenomenon that also caused Seven of Nine to collapse in a nearly identical way back on Earth.

Moreover, Picard was directly experiencing the final end of the Borg threat, the liberation of all the quadrillions of souls that were enslaved as he had once been. His reaction on pp. 402-4 of Lost Souls isn't a nervous collapse, it's a paroxysm of joy. After all the hell he's been through at the hands of the Borg, I think he's entitled.

I somehow can't imagine Patrick Stewart agree to play Picard like this.

Then you must have never seen the final act of "Sarek."

 

[JarodRussell]

I somehow can't imagine Patrick Stewart agree to play Picard like this.

Then you must have never seen the final act of "Sarek."

Maybe I should have said "play Picard like this in a Borg story".

 

[ProtoAvatar]

I think he's just pointing out the hypocritical nature of using one weapon of mass destruction vs. not using another on moral grounds.

Sure. Obviously. But to me, they seem to be quite different. A photon torpedo simply blows things up, in self defense... but thalaron gets into the cells of humanoid victims and slowly, slowly, slowly turns their body, excruciatingly, into necrotic tissue, then ash.

Different? Hardly.
Photon torpedos (matter/antimatter warheads) can "simply" destroy a world in minutes. No self-defense required.
Thalaron weapons also can destroy a world in minutes.


Thalaron weapon can - possibly (that's an interpretation on your part, Therin) - give a painful death?
Photon torpedos also can give a painful death (as long as you're not near the detonation).

Photon torpedos can be scaled down to destroy only a ship?
Thalaron weapons can also be scaled down to destroy only a ship ('thalaron readiation can encompass a ship - or a planet' - Nemesis).

Photon torpedos can be used in self-defense?
Thalaron weapons can also be used in self-defense.

 

[JarodRussell]

Photon torpedos (matter/antimatter warheads) can "simply" destroy a world in minutes. No self-defense required.

Have we ever seen or heard that canonically?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

That was Picard being overwhelmed by an unimaginably powerful external influence.

A, yes, after being reduced to a pathetic wreck, Picard didn't even get over his borg trauma on his own.
The Caeliar messed with his brain and get over his borg trauma for him.

A fitting ending for a trilogy that seriously damaged Picard's character.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Photon torpedos (matter/antimatter warheads) can "simply" destroy a world in minutes. No self-defense required.

Have we ever seen or heard that canonically?

Actually, yes; off the top of my head:

DS9: 'The die is cast' - A romulan/cardassian fleet is in the process of turning the founders' home world into rubble by using photon torpedos and disruptors.

Voy: 'The omega directive' - Kim puts enough antimatter into a photon torpedo warhead to, in his own words "blow up a small planet".

And, most likely, other examples.


And, of course, the physics of matter/antimatter reaction/warhead fully support photon torpedoes as weapons of mass destruction (ones far more powerful than the nukes we have now).

 

[JarodRussell]

Actually, yes; off the top of my head:

DS9: 'The die is cast' - A romulan/cardassian fleet is in the process of turning the founders' home world into rubble by using photon torpedos and disruptors.

Voy: 'The omega directive' - Kim puts enough antimatter into a photon torpedo warhead to, in his own words "blow up a small planet".

Hm, so it seems to me that the usual photon torpedo is not a WMD. It's like a missile. It's only a WMD if you put a nuclear warhead on top of it, but in general, it's just a conventional missile.

Is a conventional bomb a WMD just because you can drop a hundred thousand of it on a city? Or is dynamite a WMD because a large enough pile may be able to destroy an entire city?

The usual photon torpedo is only able to blow a small hole into the ships hull, even if it explodes inside (as seen in TUC). You can modify the warhead, but that's seems to be the exception.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Actually, yes; off the top of my head:

DS9: 'The die is cast' - A romulan/cardassian fleet is in the process of turning the founders' home world into rubble by using photon torpedos and disruptors.

Voy: 'The omega directive' - Kim puts enough antimatter into a photon torpedo warhead to, in his own words "blow up a small planet".

Hm, so it seems to me that the usual photon torpedo is not a WMD. It's like a missile. It's only a WMD if you put a nuclear warhead on top of it, but in general, it's just a conventional missile.

Is a conventional bomb a WMD just because you can drop a hundred thousand of it on a city? Or is dynamite a WMD because a large enough pile may be able to destroy an entire city?

The usual photon torpedo is only able to blow a small hole into the ships hull, even if it explodes inside (as seen in TUC). You can modify the warhead, but that's seems to be the exception.

As I said:
"Photon torpedos can be scaled down to destroy only a ship?
Thalaron weapons can also be scaled down to destroy only a ship ('thalaron radiation can encompass a ship - or a planet' - Nemesis)."
No difference here.

 

[JarodRussell]

Actually, yes; off the top of my head:

DS9: 'The die is cast' - A romulan/cardassian fleet is in the process of turning the founders' home world into rubble by using photon torpedos and disruptors.

Voy: 'The omega directive' - Kim puts enough antimatter into a photon torpedo warhead to, in his own words "blow up a small planet".

Hm, so it seems to me that the usual photon torpedo is not a WMD. It's like a missile. It's only a WMD if you put a nuclear warhead on top of it, but in general, it's just a conventional missile.

Is a conventional bomb a WMD just because you can drop a hundred thousand of it on a city? Or is dynamite a WMD because a large enough pile may be able to destroy an entire city?

The usual photon torpedo is only able to blow a small hole into the ships hull, even if it explodes inside (as seen in TUC). You can modify the warhead, but that's seems to be the exception.

As I said:
"Photon torpedos can be scaled down to destroy only a ship?
Thalaron weapons can also be scaled down to destroy only a ship ('thalaron radiation can encompass a ship - or a planet' - Nemesis)."
No difference here.

The difference is that in general, the thaleron radiation is used as a WMD, but a photon torpedo isn't. So there really is no moral inconsistency for the characters. They don't consider the photon torpedoes they usually use as WMDs. A nuclear warhead can also be built so small that it only damages a single building. But that doesn't make a load of dynamite achieving the same a WMD.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Hm, so it seems to me that the usual photon torpedo is not a WMD. It's like a missile. It's only a WMD if you put a nuclear warhead on top of it, but in general, it's just a conventional missile.

Is a conventional bomb a WMD just because you can drop a hundred thousand of it on a city? Or is dynamite a WMD because a large enough pile may be able to destroy an entire city?

The usual photon torpedo is only able to blow a small hole into the ships hull, even if it explodes inside (as seen in TUC). You can modify the warhead, but that's seems to be the exception.

As I said:
"Photon torpedos can be scaled down to destroy only a ship?
Thalaron weapons can also be scaled down to destroy only a ship ('thalaron radiation can encompass a ship - or a planet' - Nemesis)."
No difference here.

The difference is that in general, the thaleron radiation is used as a WMD, but a photon torpedo isn't. So there really is no moral inconsistency for the characters. They don't consider the photon torpedoes they usually use as WMDs.

What 'in general'?
A thalaron weapon was almost used once, in Nemesis, to destroy a ship.

Photon torpedos were used multiple times as WMDs, not just to destroy ships.

'They' are hypocrites if they don't consider photon torpedos WMDs.

A nuclear warhead can also be built so small that it only damages a single building. But that doesn't make a load of dynamite achieving the same a WMD.

But you can't put together enough dynamite (not in any practical way) to destroy a city.
Nukes can easily destroy cities - that's why they're WMDs.

Photon torpedos can easily be modified to destroy a planet - that's why they're WMDs.


By definition, a weapon is a WMD if it has the potential to kill/destroy on a massive scale.
Photon torpedos easily fit this definition - they ARE WMDs.

 

[JarodRussell]

Photon torpedos were used multiple times as WMDs, not just to destroy ships.

Yes, two times, one of which (the orbital bombardment of the fake Founder homeworld) wasn't even by the Federation.

'They' are hypocrites if they don't consider photon torpedos WMDs.

No, they're just knowing that the stuff they put in their torpedo tubes in regular business isn't capable of destroying anything larger than a building.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Photon torpedos were used multiple times as WMDs, not just to destroy ships.

Yes, two times, one of which (the orbital bombardment of the fake Founder homeworld) wasn't even by the Federation.

Two times? Here's no 3 and 4:

Ent: 'Affliction/Divergence' - the klingons were destroying their own colonies, killing millions of their people, with photon torpedos and disruptors.

TOS: "A taste of Armageddon' - Kirk threatened to destroy an entire planet - Eminiar VII - with photon torpedoes and phasers.

And, most likely, there are OTHER times.
If one takes trek lit into consideration, the list will most likely increase dramatically.

'They' are hypocrites if they don't consider photon torpedos WMDs.

No, they're just knowing that the stuff they put in their torpedo tubes in regular business isn't capable of destroying anything larger than a building.

Just as they'll be knowing that the thalaron radiation they're releasing can only destroy a ship - or a smallish senate hall.

JarodRussell - photon torpedos are by definition WMDs. Regardless how one uses them:
"A weapon is a WMD if it has the POTENTIAL to kill/destroy on a massive scale."

 

[BillJ]

No, they're just knowing that the stuff they put in their torpedo tubes in regular business isn't capable of destroying anything larger than a building.

Incorrect. We don't see the Enterprise taking any special measures when getting ready to destroy Eminiar, except programming targets into their 'fire control system'. If a regular photon torpedo couldn't destroy anything more than a building... the Enterprise would have had to have tens of thousands to effectively level Eminiar.

The commander of a starship sets on an arsenal that can destroy a whole planet and he doesn't need anyone else to turn their 'key' to do it. We see a Lieutenant Commander with access to the same arsenal.

The Federation is just inconsistent with its application of its own morals. Sisko rendered an entire world uninhabitable to human life.