Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards them?

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

neozeks , I think there is a difference between natural culture assimilation and deliberate culture imperialism. Both have negative connotations, but there can be positives examples too, like the "American Melting Pot" assimilation effect. The example I gave of the Vulcan's Pon Farr (which I deliberately overstated to make a point) shows that the Federation doesn't impose it's standards on it's members, perhaps when the member is strong enough to prevent it. On DS9, a Federation school teacher tried to teach a group on indigenous children that their local deities were nothing more than "wormhole aliens," a local cultural leader stopped the instruction and later the local ranking member of the Bajoian militia inform the local Starfleet commander that the teachers actions were in error and that the indigenous children (if necessary) should be taught separately in order to preserve their cultural identity.

The Bajorians put their foot down, and they had the strength and resolve to back up their actions. There are cases of cultures who didn't possess this strength in the face of the Federation

Once upon a time there was a technological race who decided to make a change to a simpler lifestyle, but they didn't want to be completely primitive. So they hung on to a lot of their technology, they just made it automatic. They had weather control, planetary defenses, agricultural control, their medical science had given them long life and perfect health (hows that for national health?). Over time the original members of this race died and were replace by their descendants. And they lived a life of peaceful existence until the day that the Federation came and destroyed it all. The Federation didn't believe in their diversity or their choises.

I'm referring to Kirk and Vaal. Vaal did build itself, the people of that world created it for their own reasons. In destroying Vaal the Federation (through Kirk) created a entire planet of people, perhaps many millions all over that world, who were completely dependent upon the Federation.

The people of Vaal were too weak to say no, don't destroy our culture. Part of the Prime Directive is that Starfleet personnel will literally die to prevent interference. The Federation hardly preserved or respected their cultural identity.

A very clear cut case of culture imperialism and culture conquest, mine is better than yours.

You will notice that the Federation never once conquered some other civilization.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

On DS9, a Federation school teacher tried to teach a group on indigenous children that their local deities were nothing more than "wormhole aliens,"

Because, as a school teacher, that is her job.

a local cultural leader stopped the instruction and later the local ranking member of the Bajoian militia inform the local Starfleet commander that the teachers actions were in error and that the indigenous children (if necessary) should be taught separately in order to preserve their cultural identity.

You're talking about Winn, aren't you? We all know what she's like. She was only doing that to drive a wedge between the Bajorans on the station and Starfleet. She was trying to stir up trouble.

(Remember, Winn was responsible for ordering the BOMBING of Keiko's school, and orchestrating an assassination attempt on a rival vedek. Winn is the Bajoran equivalent of the Taliban, or perhaps even bin Laden himself.)

As Keiko rightfully pointed out, there's nothing stopping the Bajoran children from receiving religious instruction - in a Bajoran temple. It's not Keiko's job to teach anything about the wormhole or its inhabitants other than what scientific observation says they are.

I'm referring to Kirk and Vaal. Vaal did build itself, the people of that world created it for their own reasons. In destroying Vaal the Federation (through Kirk) created a entire planet of people, perhaps many millions all over that world, who were completely dependent upon the Federation.

Like I said, Kirk only did that because Vaal threatened to destroy the Enterprise. Kirk is ENTIRELY within his rights to act in the defense of his ship in crew.

 

[neozeks]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

The example I gave of the Vulcan's Pon Farr (which I deliberately overstated to make a point) shows that the Federation doesn't impose it's standards on it's members, perhaps when the member is strong enough to prevent it.

But it does. I tried to prove that Vulcan rituals are in line with Federation ideals. Though it isn't really imposing standards. A culture adopts these values of it's own will and accepts to work under them when it decides to join the Federation. Federation standards are the broad universal standards of all of it's members, they are not a separate set of values.

On DS9, a Federation school teacher tried to teach a group on indigenous children that their local deities were nothing more than "wormhole aliens," a local cultural leader stopped the instruction and later the local ranking member of the Bajoian militia inform the local Starfleet commander that the teachers actions were in error and that the indigenous children (if necessary) should be taught separately in order to preserve their cultural identity.

That is not a matter of Federation ideals vs Bajoran ideals, it's a matter of secularism vs religion. Who gives Winn the right to usurp Bajoran culture and equate it with just Bajoran religion? Who says there aren't secularists on Bajor (culturally completely Bajoran) that agree that science (which is culture-less) is to be taught in the classroom and religion in the temple?

I'm a secular humanist. I think there are some universal rational principles and values common to all humans (and in Trekverse, by extension, all sentients) irrespective of their culture. Therefore I find cultural relativism and hiding behind cultural identity when talking about morals highly suspect.

 

[Sci]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

On DS9, a Federation school teacher tried to teach a group on indigenous children that their local deities were nothing more than "wormhole aliens,"

Because, as a school teacher, that is her job.

a local cultural leader stopped the instruction and later the local ranking member of the Bajoian militia inform the local Starfleet commander that the teachers actions were in error and that the indigenous children (if necessary) should be taught separately in order to preserve their cultural identity.

You're talking about Winn, aren't you? We all know what she's like. She was only doing that to drive a wedge between the Bajorans on the station and Starfleet. She was trying to stir up trouble.

(Remember, Winn was responsible for ordering the BOMBING of Keiko's school, and orchestrating an assassination attempt on a rival vedek. Winn is the Bajoran equivalent of the Taliban, or perhaps even bin Laden himself.)

As Keiko rightfully pointed out, there's nothing stopping the Bajoran children from receiving religious instruction - in a Bajoran temple. It's not Keiko's job to teach anything about the wormhole or its inhabitants other than what scientific observation says they are.

I'm referring to Kirk and Vaal. Vaal did build itself, the people of that world created it for their own reasons. In destroying Vaal the Federation (through Kirk) created a entire planet of people, perhaps many millions all over that world, who were completely dependent upon the Federation.

Like I said, Kirk only did that because Vaal threatened to destroy the Enterprise. Kirk is ENTIRELY within his rights to act in the defense of his ship in crew.

It seems to me that those are two examples of how the Federation can simultaneously be right and wrong.

Take Keiko, for instance. Yes, it's not her job to provide religious instruction. On the other hand, it's not her job to tell children that their parents' religious beliefs are wrong, either. One way she could have handled the whole situation is that she could have said, "The Bajoran religion teaches that the entities that live in the Wormhole are the Prophets, the ancient gods of Bajor, and that the Wormhole itself constitutes the Celestial Temple of Bajoran belief. I am a science teacher and cannot tell you if these beliefs are right or wrong -- all I can tell you is the mechanics of how the Wormhole works and what we can confirm with absolute certainty about the entities within it. I leave it to you to decide the meaning of this information." That might have gone a long way towards defusing tensions with the Bajorans.

 

[Vanyel]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

On DS9, a Federation school teacher tried to teach a group on indigenous children that their local deities were nothing more than "wormhole aliens,"

Because, as a school teacher, that is her job.



You're talking about Winn, aren't you? We all know what she's like. She was only doing that to drive a wedge between the Bajorans on the station and Starfleet. She was trying to stir up trouble.

(Remember, Winn was responsible for ordering the BOMBING of Keiko's school, and orchestrating an assassination attempt on a rival vedek. Winn is the Bajoran equivalent of the Taliban, or perhaps even bin Laden himself.)

As Keiko rightfully pointed out, there's nothing stopping the Bajoran children from receiving religious instruction - in a Bajoran temple. It's not Keiko's job to teach anything about the wormhole or its inhabitants other than what scientific observation says they are.

I'm referring to Kirk and Vaal. Vaal did build itself, the people of that world created it for their own reasons. In destroying Vaal the Federation (through Kirk) created a entire planet of people, perhaps many millions all over that world, who were completely dependent upon the Federation.

Like I said, Kirk only did that because Vaal threatened to destroy the Enterprise. Kirk is ENTIRELY within his rights to act in the defense of his ship in crew.

It seems to me that those are two examples of how the Federation can simultaneously be right and wrong.

Take Keiko, for instance. Yes, it's not her job to provide religious instruction. On the other hand, it's not her job to tell children that their parents' religious beliefs are wrong, either. One way she could have handled the whole situation is that she could have said, "The Bajoran religion teaches that the entities that live in the Wormhole are the Prophets, the ancient gods of Bajor, and that the Wormhole itself constitutes the Celestial Temple of Bajoran belief. I am a science teacher and cannot tell you if these beliefs are right or wrong -- all I can tell you is the mechanics of how the Wormhole works and what we can confirm with absolute certainty about the entities within it. I leave it to you to decide the meaning of this information." That might have gone a long way towards defusing tensions with the Bajorans.

Winn was in a win win situation. Keiko says the Celestial Temple is a wormhole where a race of aliens live, and Winn fires back like she. The Federation is undermining the Bajoran belief system. Keiko tries to split it the way you say, and says she'll tell the Bajoran children "what we can confirm with absolute certainty about the entities within it" and Winn fires back that Kieko, and by extension the Federation, are trying to quantify their gods, The Prophets. There is no winning move when Religion tries to move into the classroom. No matter what teachers try to do, there will be a fight. Winn knew that.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

On DS9, a Federation school teacher tried to teach a group on indigenous children that their local deities were nothing more than "wormhole aliens,"

Because, as a school teacher, that is her job.

Keiko was continuing a lesson that she had began the day before, likely one of the Bajorian children (the majority of the class) had mentioned the direction of the lesson plan to their parent, who had been troubled and word had eventual reached Kai Winn. Initially Win only ask, asked politely, that Keiko not refer to the Prophets as "entities." Keiko responses was to tell the class "the entities are worshiped as prophets," continuing to use the word entities. At this point Keiko is being rude.

Later Kai Winn ask Keiko if she believes that the "Celestial Temple of the Prophets," existed somewhere within the wormhole. Stop. Mr. Laser Beam, briefly getting around terminology, what portion of Winn's question doesn't reflect what the series showed to be completely true? The Prophets live in the wormhole, why could not Keiko just say yes?

Kai Winn actual didn't try to bring Keiko's lesson to a halt. She only asked this:
1) The entities be called the Prophets.
2) The wormhole be called the passage.
3) Teach that "the wormhole entities" had a hand in guiding ships through "the wormhole."
4) Teach that "the wormhole entities" lived in "the wormhole."

What was Keiko problem? Winn had no problem with the children examining a scientific diagram of the wormhole or Keiko's use of secular terms like "verteron particles' and teaching that these were what formed the wormhole. Keiko wanted to be able to pick and choose what portions on the Bajorian culture she wished to acknowledge.

It would be like talking to a crowd of Catholic children in a public school room and refer to Pope Benedict as simply "Joe Ratzinger," to refuse to use Pope Benedict would be inappropriate, and would show a lack of cultural sensitivity.

Which ultimately was what Keiko was trying her hardest to do.

--------------------------

CLAUDIUS: you could probably defeat the combined armies of our entire empire, and violate your oath regarding noninterference with other societies. I believe you all swear you'll die before you'd violate that directive. Am I right?

SPOCK: Quite correct.

CLAUDIUS: But on the other hand, why even bother to send your men down? From what I understand, your vessel could lay waste to the entire surface of the world. Oh, but there's that Prime Directive in the way again. Can't interfere.

In destroying Vaal ...

Like I said, Kirk only did that because Vaal threatened to destroy the Enterprise. Kirk is ENTIRELY within his rights to act in the defense of his ship in crew.

And please, specifically which rights are these?

They beam down ten and a half miles from the nearest village (feeders of Vaal), Hendorff isn't killed until they take they first steps toward the village, at that point the transporters still work (the body is beamed up).

Then the Enterprise start to lose potency in the antimatter pods, but they can still transport up and the ship can still leave.

The real trouble starts after the incident with Spock and the exploding rock, in case you didn't notice, when the planet's natives are feeding Vall, they're feeding it these rocks. Spock is messing with Vaal's food. Only then does Vall shut down the antimatter pods, shoot at Kirk, shut down the transporter, and kill the red shirt with lightning. Later still come the tractor beams.

KIRK: We should've beamed up at the first sign of trouble.
SPOCK: You are under orders to investigate this planet and this culture.
KIRK: I also have the option to disregard those orders if I consider them overly hazardous.

Later Mr. Spock delivers these points to McCoy:

1) Doctor, you insist on applying human standards to non-human cultures ...
2) Another is their right to choose a system which seems to work for them ...
3) Doctor, these people are healthy and they are happy ...
4) What ever you choose to call it, this system works ...

 

[neozeks]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Take Keiko, for instance. Yes, it's not her job to provide religious instruction. On the other hand, it's not her job to tell children that their parents' religious beliefs are wrong, either.

I don't think she did any such thing. She only talked about verifiable scientific facts. And none of those facts actually contradicted Bajoran beliefs. She just didn't want to teach one religion's interpretation of those facts. If anything, teachers teaching kids about evolution IRL goes far more against religious beliefs than this case.

One way she could have handled the whole situation is that she could have said, "The Bajoran religion teaches that the entities that live in the Wormhole are the Prophets, the ancient gods of Bajor, and that the Wormhole itself constitutes the Celestial Temple of Bajoran belief. I am a science teacher and cannot tell you if these beliefs are right or wrong -- all I can tell you is the mechanics of how the Wormhole works and what we can confirm with absolute certainty about the entities within it. I leave it to you to decide the meaning of this information." That might have gone a long way towards defusing tensions with the Bajorans.

For all we know she might have mentioned this later in a lesson about Bajoran culture or something. I don't know - are teacher's obligated to mention God when they talk about the Big Bang? Keiko may be guilty of lacking tact but she was still right that religious authorities have no place messing with science classes.

Keiko was continuing a lesson that she had began the day before, likely one of the Bajorian children (the majority of the class) had mentioned the direction of the lesson plan to their parent, who had been troubled and word had eventual reached Kai Winn. Initially Win only ask, asked politely, that Keiko not refer to the Prophets as "entities." Keiko responses was to tell the class "the entities are worshiped as prophets," continuing to use the word entities. At this point Keiko is being rude.

I don't think that's rude. Anymore than describing God in a philosophy class as an 'entity' (which is true), is offensive. Keiko simply used a correct scientific term and not a religious term. I'm sure the Bajoran kids we're perfectly aware what 'entities' refered to in light or their religion.

Later Kai Winn ask Keiko if she believes that the "Celestial Temple of the Prophets," existed somewhere within the wormhole. Stop. Mr. Laser Beam, briefly getting around terminology, what portion of Winn's question doesn't reflect what the series showed to be completely true? The Prophets live in the wormhole, why could not Keiko just say yes?

We can't get around terminology. Celestial Temple, 'the guiding hand', all clearly have religious connotations. Keiko doesn't believe the wormhole aliens are Prophets or that the wormhole is the Temple, why should she say yes? She doesn't say the beliefs are wrong, she says she respects them. She just doesn't want to teach them in a science class.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

are teacher's obligated to mention God when they talk about the Big Bang?

Why not? While I was in science class, I was taught the big bang hypothesis, but also told about the steady state hypothesis as well as various other hypothesis of how the universe came into existence, including religious creation.

Our science teacher wanted his student to understand that multiple hypothesis can exist at the same time, and that just because the big bang is the current favored hypothesis, doesn't mean that it won't one day be completely replace by an entirely different hypothesis based on new observations.

Keiko may be guilty of lacking tact

Gee, you think? And not just in this one case. Let face it, Keiko an ass, she was shown to be one almost since to first moment we met the character. Her worldview and culture were superior to that of those silly little religious Bajorian, and she was going to use her teaching position to advance her's.

Keiko simply used a correct scientific term and not a religious term.

In that case neozeks, can you tell me why does Keiko refers the the Bajorian's planet as Bajor? Prophets is the local name for the enitites, the passage is the local term for the wormhole, Bajor is the local name for the planet. These word/names are part of the local culture, this goes back to what I said about Keiko wanting to be able to pick and choose what portions on the Bajorian culture she wished to acknowledge. No one was asking Keiko to give a religious lesson, Kai Winn might even have stopped her if she tried.

Try it this way, the biggest city in Brazil is São Paulo, say it Sau~nh Pah~uh~oh (but you run it together), if you're in Brazil and you refer to it as just "Saint Paul," (technically that is the English translation) first you'll get beat up, second you'll be wrong. Because that isn't the local name, you're not showing respect for the local people (Keiko doesn't), or the respect for the local culture (Keiko doesn't).

Likely there is a technical name for the planet, something like Gamma-Reticulum Three (whatever), I've never heard Keiko use this, she uses "Bajor."

Why does she say Bajor?

Keiko responses was to tell the class "the entities are worshiped as prophets," continuing to use the word entities. At this point Keiko is being rude.

Anymore than describing God in a philosophy class as an 'entity' (which is true), is offensive.

If you were speaking to group of people of faith and instead of saying God, you make a point of repeatedly using the word "entity," of course you're being offensive, perhaps deliberately so.

Keiko doesn't believe the wormhole aliens are Prophets

I'm not Muslim, but I can use the word/name "Allah." That would be an example of myself being culturally sensitive. To repeat myself, what is Keiko's problem?

The Prophets deliver prophecies to the Bajorian people that have come true. They've delivered prophecies to Sisko and they've come true. How can Keiko possible believe that the wormhole aliens are not "Prophets?" You would think that a supposed "school teacher"would understand the definition and meaning of the word prophet.

[Keiko doesn't] believe that the wormhole is the Temple,

The Bajorian people also don't believe that the wormhole is The temple, maybe Kai Winn and Keiko can use this common belief as a road to mutual understanding.

(the Temple is inside the wormhole, not the wormhole itself)

.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

In that case neozeks, can you tell me why does Keiko refers the the Bajorian's planet as Bajor?

Uh...because that's what EVERYONE calls it?

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

In that case neozeks, can you tell me why does Keiko refers the the Bajorian's planet as Bajor?

Uh...because that's what EVERYONE calls it?

Good, and now she doesn't refer to the Bajorian Prophets as the Prophets because ...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

^ Because the word 'prophet' is a strictly religious term. Keiko is not a vedek, so she should not be expected to teach Bajoran religion.

 

[neozeks]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Why not? While I was in science class, I was taught the big bang hypothesis, but also told about the steady state hypothesis as well as various other hypothesis of how the universe came into existence, including religious creation.

Our science teacher wanted his student to understand that multiple hypothesis can exist at the same time, and that just because the big bang is the current favored hypothesis, doesn't mean that it won't one day be completely replace by an entirely different hypothesis based on new observations.

That's all fine and well, but religious creation is not a scientific hypothesis. Should creationism be taught (or even mentioned) side by side with evolution?

In that case neozeks, can you tell me why does Keiko refers the the Bajorian's planet as Bajor? Prophets is the local name for the enitites, the passage is the local term for the wormhole, Bajor is the local name for the planet. These word/names are part of the local culture, this goes back to what I said about Keiko wanting to be able to pick and choose what portions on the Bajorian culture she wished to acknowledge.

You know what, here's the exchange:

KEIKO Because it was artificially constructed. Commander Sisko encountered the entities who created the wormhole when he...

WINN Excuse me, by the "entities," do you not mean "the prophets"... ?

KEIKO (beat, senses the issue) Yes... on Bajor... the entities are worshipped as prophets.

Keiko mentioned 'entities' only once. She was talking to a class that included Bajorans and non-Bajorans. She didn't even call them 'the wormhole aliens', suggesting they are on par with other aliens. She used a very broad term that included the scientific aspect but was also in line with religious views. And she may have said that Bajorans called them the Prophets in the very next sentence had Winn not interrupted her.

It's obvious Winn was just trying to provoke a fight. After Keiko acknowledged that, yes, Bajorans called them the Prophets, Winn crossed into pure theology - Celestial Temple, Prophets guide the ships through with their benevolent hands etc. Her problem was Keiko didn't teach these things. How on Earth/Bajor can you expect a science teacher to teach these things? Those are all clearly religious interpretations. And as I said, nothing Keiko said actually contradicted Bajoran beliefs.

(the Temple is inside the wormhole, not the wormhole itself)

.

Now you're just splitting hairs.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Was Kieko there as a Federation representative, Starfleet or a private teacher?

As far tact goes, I agree, after doing some research, she may have realized the situation she was dealing with.

And maybe considered finding a way of mentioning the Prophets out of respect to the Bajorans, at least when talking about the wormhole.

Now for that, you have a good argument why other cultures might feel threatened by the Federation.

Then again, it was partly technology and freedom which got the Federation where it is in the first place.

You could say the same thing about the Bajorans in a sense..

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Was Kieko there as a Federation representative, Starfleet or a private teacher?

Private teacher. It was her idea to have a school there in the first place. She wasn't working for anyone else.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Was Kieko there as a Federation representative, Starfleet or a private teacher?

Private teacher. It was her idea to have a school there in the first place. She wasn't working for anyone else.

Then that argument can go either way. She could just as easily had the right not to teach about the Prophets, but somehow it looked like Starfleet was backing her, with equipment, financially, and legaly speaking).


I wonder why they (Bajorans, viewers, everyone,) made it out to be a Federation vs Bajoran issue?

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

That's all fine and well, but religious creation is not a scientific hypothesis.

But it is one of the many explanations for how the universe came into existence. I'm sure each of the hypothesis's has it's own supporters, all of whom insist that their hypothesis is "the only true one."

KEIKO Commander Sisko encountered the entities who created the wormhole when he ...
WINN: Excuse me. By entities, do you not mean the Prophets?
KEIKO: Yes, on Bajor the entities ...

Keiko mentioned 'entities' only once. She was talking to a class that included Bajorans and non-Bajorans.

The class was Jake, Nog and all the rest are Bajorian children. The second time Keiko said Entities as immediately after Kai Winn politely ask her not to use that term. Kai Winn was simply asking Keiko not to use the word entities in front of the children. I'm sure there are a lot of legitimate scientific terms that would be inappropriate to be used in front of children that age, Kai Winn felt that Entities, used in that context, was one of them.

How on Earth/Bajor can you expect a science teacher to teach these things? Those are all clearly religious interpretations.

How is it a religious interpretation that where the Prophets reside is inside the passage to the gamma quadrant. That's where they do actual live.

All Keiko had to do is tell the truth

And as I said, nothing Keiko said actually contradicted Bajoran beliefs.

She contradicted that the Prophets are consistently referred to by that term.

Hypothetically if the Bajorians were say Muslims, there are a total of ninety-nine different way to respectful refer to Allah, entity isn't one of them.

 

[neozeks]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

But it is one of the many explanations for how the universe came into existence. I'm sure each of the hypothesis's has it's own supporters, all of whom insist that their hypothesis is "the only true one."

Yeah, but only scientific ones have material proof. In a science class, that's all that matters.

How is it a religious interpretation that where the Prophets reside is inside the passage to the gamma quadrant. That's where they do actual live.

Well, I didn't actually talk about those things. If you look at the conversation terms 'prophets' and 'passage' (though we know Bajorans themselves also call it 'the wormhole', and anyway that is the correct scientific term - in Bajoran scientific, not religious, terminology as well, I'd bet) were minor points. Winn put much more emphasis on the fact that Keiko didn't believe or teach that the Celestial Temple is in the wormhole or that the Prophets themselves guided the ship with their 'hands'/will - clearly a religious belief, with no basis in science (yeah, I'm repeating myself).

Hypothetically if the Bajorians were say Muslims, there are a total of ninety-nine different way to respectful refer to Allah, entity isn't one of them.

According to Winn's fundamentalist teachings, perhaps. We have no idea if other branches of their faith had a problem with it.

 

[Cepstrum]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

This is getting interesting but straying a little (or perhaps not) from my OP wondering why most of the Great Powers in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants were hostile to the UFP. We're now talking about how one reason might be the UFP's purported tendency towards effecting cultural homogeneity — or possibly even cultural hegemony/imperialism, with the example being discussed the case of Keiko teaching about the "wormhole aliens" that at least some Bajorans disliked (most notably, Vedek/Kai Winn).

I'm disinclined to weigh in too much about who was in the right there and only have two observations/questions/comments:

1. Given that the Federation (more accurately, Star Fleet) was administering a Bajor station at the request of the Bajoran government, wouldn't that mean the Bajorans should have the final say over what is being taught there, irrespective of its scientific validity? After all, Bajor was not yet a member of the UFP and thus didn't have to adhere to their education standards.

On the other hand, perhaps the UFP had set some parameters in their role as admins: for example, one condition might have been that they be allowed to handle education on the station. And don't forget that either party could have terminated the relationship at any time.

2. It's unclear to me how much distress this caused among Bajorans. How much do we know about that? It seems as though Winn might have had ulterior motives for making this an issue: she clearly hated Star Fleet's presence, and I don't know whether she was genuinely concerned about the religious aspect or was merely trying to create enmity between Star Fleet and the Bajorans. Do we know whether Keiko's teaching offended other Bajorans? At the least it must have offended one (the parent who brought this issue to Winn's attention).

3. Do you think being part of the UFP means adopting/adhering to a certain education curriculum (or at least certain rules that must be followed)? Or is education free? That is, are UFP members allowed to instruct their children as they like, or must they follow whatever the UFP's education ministry prescribes? If the latter is true, I can see why some non-aligned planets might not want to join and surrender this freedom. BUT that wouldn't explain why the other Great Powers are hostile towards the UFP: I'd find it hard to believe their hostility arises from a desire to "liberate" the "oppressed" members of the UFP — I doubt their motives are hardly so altruistic.

By the way: I'm exceedingly pleased to see how I, as a relative TrekBBS newbie was able to generate a lengthy and thoroughly discussed thread. I hope the debate continues.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

2. It's unclear to me how much distress this caused among Bajorans. ... Winn might have had ulterior motives

Kai Winn was definitely ambitious, but I also think she and others (perhaps the children's parents) had concerns about the Bajorian culture being submerged within the Federations overall culture. It would have been pretty easy to "disappear." It's unclear how many Bajorian were left alive after the Cardassians withdrew, but with the disruption and changes brought about during (and by) the resistance, the Bajorian leaders might have be worried about reconstituting their prewar society.

Kai Winn doesn't so much hate the Federation, as she is defensive towards what it could do.

are UFP members allowed to instruct their children as they like

The Vulcans certainly seem to.

each of the hypothesis's has it's own supporters, all of whom insist that their hypothesis is "the onlytrue one."

Yeah, but only scientific ones have material proof. In a science class, that's all that matters.

A hypothesis is based upon observation and interpretation, not material proof. Science is the exploration of ideas, multiple ideas, multiple concepts. In a science class, that too matters

Winn put much more emphasis on the fact that Keiko didn't believe or teach that the Celestial Temple is in the wormhole

Kia Winn didn't give a damn what Keiko personally believed or most likely what vocabulary she use in her private life. If there had been no Bajorian children present in the classroom, Kai Winn never would have entered. The Celestial Temple debatably wouldn't have even come up if Keiko hadn't pigheadedly refused to replace a very few terms with indigenous ones. The lesson plan would have progressed, Kai Winn had no problem with Keiko referring to Veriton Particles, there might have not been a indigenous term and Kai Winn did scream blasphemy when Keiko taught the children that the passage was made of them.

Keiko: " Commander Sisko encountered the entities who created the wormhole ..."

You'll notice that while Keiko does refer to the Prophets as entities, she apparently has no problem referring to the Humanoid lifeform who encountered them as "Commander Sisko." Certainly Keiko would have found the term "Humanoid lifeform" more appropriate for a science class. Of course in Keiko's culture it's a show of respectfulness to refer to "Commander Sisko" by name.

In Keiko's culture.

or that the Prophets themselves guided the ship with their 'hands'/will - clearly a religious belief, with no basis in science (yeah, I'm repeating myself).

And at the risk of repeating myself, the Prophet's "hands" destroyed a large Jem Hadar battle fleet while in the wormhole, that certainly sounds like the Prophets can exercise control over ships passing through the wormhole.

Hypothetically if the Bajorians were say Muslims, there are a total of ninety-nine different way to respectful refer to Allah, entity isn't one of them.

According to Winn's fundamentalist teachings, perhaps. We have no idea if other branches of their faith had a problem with it.

According to Major Kira in the very same episode, Kai Winn is orthodox, not fundamentalist. Orthodox means: Sound in opinion or doctrine, especially in religious doctrine, harmonious or congruous with the doctrines of the temple.

Kai Winn is mainstream.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

^ Winn was not merely ambitious. She was a murderous terrorist who was no better than the Taliban. She ordered the bombing of Keiko's school, and attempted to murder Bareil. Does that sound like anyone whose POV you should be arguing?

In reality, she did not particularly care what Keiko taught. Winn was just using that as an excuse to create violence on the station.