Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards them?

[Cepstrum]

It's been made quite clear that *all* non UFP Powers believe the UFP is bafflingly altruistic and almost passive — they mock StarFleet for it, in fact. So why are the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, etc. so untrusting and antagonistic towards the UFP? It's obvious that the UFP is not interested in expansion or threatening its neighbors. (Besides, there are more than enough suitable planets for the other Powers to expand without encroaching upon UFP territory.)

Even SF's ships are not specially suited for battle but for exploration (at least until the Borg threat and Dominion War — though it's notable that they gave up on warships once the Borg threat diminished, before the Dominion War.).

I understand why the Dominion would want to conquer the UFP, for they hate all solids. But how, for example, did the UFP ever really get into its recent long and bloody war with the Cardassians? Even though the Cardassians are militaristic, even they know the UFP has no designs on them at all.

So what has the UFP done to earn the enmity of so many Powers? (At least the Klingons eventually woke up and realized the UFP were better as allies, though it took some heroic sacrificial acts of SF to finally convince them.)

Any ideas? (Other than the obvious explanation that for dramatic purposes, we need to have enemies. But to counter that, we can have more realistic enemies such as the Borg and Dominion, who could never appreciate the UFP's peaceful ways.)

 

[Lord Garth]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

In "Errand of Mercy", the Federation and Klingons are arguing over territory. There are areas in dispute. The Federation, being humanitarian, knows what the Klingons would do to these disputed areas. The Klingons, not responding kindly to any challenge to their claims, would want to respond with force. If Kor is any indication, the Klingons don't view the Federation as peaceful but like them.

Also, the Federation may not be interested in expansion in terms of conquering land but it is spread across 8,000 light years (see Star Trek: First Contact), and was only 200 years old at that point, so there had to be quite a bit of expansion. Whether or not worlds wanted to join the Federation by choice, the Klingons see this expansion as a thread to their empire. The larger their empire the better. The more conquered worlds, the less resistance.

The Vulcans have xenophobic tendencies, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume the Romulans also have xenophobic tendencies, and they like to go into isolation for long periods of time. The presence of Earth ships near them was probably viewed as something undesirable, so they began to attack Earth ships. Earth, responding to being attacked, had no choice but to fight.

I have no idea what the Cardassians' problem with the Federation could've been but I assume it was territory since it was a border war.

Think about VOY, most of the time Voyager got into a fight was because they were entering someone else's space. If the Federation is new and Earth was late in joining the Interstellar Community, they'll be stepping on a lot of pre-existing toes. Someone is bound to ask "Who the Hell do you think you are? You think you can just waltz right in here?"

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Being the most powerful and prosper in the neighbourhood tends to attract the enmity of aggressive players that feel curbed by it in their expansionist interests.

 

[Vanyel]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

I think Lord Garth has it right. The Federation made some pretty big advances in a short time. The Klingons may have seen this Democratic, idealistic State as threat to their totalitarian Empire. They could have feared that conquered worlds near Federation space could have tried to brake away and seek the Federations protection. The Klingons may also have seen the Federation's emphasis on exploration as weak and made them look like a State to conquer.

The Roulans are xenophobic and would not like seeing any other State closing in on their Worlds.

The Cardassians while not xenophobic, would also see the quickly expanding Federation as a threat. The Cardassians are militaristic and would have responded to the perceived threat with force.

Luckily Starfleet proved itself a match for the military might of all three of these States.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

"The Federation is a cancer...spreading across the Galaxy, and choking off anyone who doesn't join them."

That may not actually come from any kind of onscreen dialogue, but I can imagine something like that being said on Qo'noS or Romulus at some point.

 

[indolover]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

The Klingons live to fight and conquer, but are willing to make allies when needs be, or have allies that are honourable and trustworthy. This is probably the only reason the Federation Alliance existed in the first place. If push came to shove, there is nothing stopping the Federation from being a Klingon target. Klingons are warriors and don't believe in peace as humans do, for them there must always be an enemy.

There was a brief Federation/Klingon war in DS9, which was only instigated by the Martok Changeling. But relations could break down, or the Klingons see the Romulans as a more worthy ally, and it puts the Federation in a difficult position.

Other cultures simply hold different values. They either believe in conquest or dominance. It's unreasonable for aliens to hold similar ways of thinking to humans.

 

[StarryEyed]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

There was a pair of novels in the late 70s called, The Price of the Phoenix and The Fate of the Phoenix. The villain complained that the Federation would turn the entire galaxy into one stifling, antiseptic, boring empire. That would be my biggest fear too.

Another fear is that the Federation is very powerful. There is a natural fear and distrust of great power. The greater the power, the greater the fear and the harder it will be for that power to earn trust.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

There was a pair of novels in the late 70s called, The Price of the Phoenix and The Fate of the Phoenix. The villain complained that the Federation would turn the entire galaxy into one stifling, antiseptic, boring empire.

How ironic, since that's exactly how those Phoenix novels sounded to me.

 

[Robert DeSoto]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

It's been made quite clear that *all* non UFP Powers believe the UFP is bafflingly altruistic and almost passive — they mock StarFleet for it, in fact. So why are the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, etc. so untrusting and antagonistic towards the UFP? It's obvious that the UFP is not interested in expansion or threatening its neighbors. (Besides, there are more than enough suitable planets for the other Powers to expand without encroaching upon UFP territory.)

Even SF's ships are not specially suited for battle but for exploration (at least until the Borg threat and Dominion War — though it's notable that they gave up on warships once the Borg threat diminished, before the Dominion War.).

I understand why the Dominion would want to conquer the UFP, for they hate all solids. But how, for example, did the UFP ever really get into its recent long and bloody war with the Cardassians? Even though the Cardassians are militaristic, even they know the UFP has no designs on them at all.

So what has the UFP done to earn the enmity of so many Powers? (At least the Klingons eventually woke up and realized the UFP were better as allies, though it took some heroic sacrificial acts of SF to finally convince them.)

Any ideas? (Other than the obvious explanation that for dramatic purposes, we need to have enemies. But to counter that, we can have more realistic enemies such as the Borg and Dominion, who could never appreciate the UFP's peaceful ways.)

Klingons and Romulans have complained about "out of control" Federation expansion (whether by colonization or recruiting new members). They also complain that the Federation doesn't recognize their territorial claims (like Archanis for the Klingons and the entire Gamma Quadrant for the Dominion). Even the Talarian raid on Galen IV was described as "repelling" the Federation invaders.

And no there is not enough space for everyone. That's why there are so many wars, not just against the Federation but against each other too.

Starfleet ships are very well armed. Yes they are exploration ships equipped with lots of science and research labs. But their weapons systems are the match of any Klingon or Romulan warship. The only exception was the Enterprise NX-01. That was the only pure exploration ship. Her weapons were pathetic and pretty much all of her missions were far away from Earth exploring deep space. Only after the Xindi attack was the ship re-armed for war. Even Archer said when he first launched he complained that he didn't want to command a warship on a mission of peace. But after getting his ass kicked repeatedly, he wanted that warship firepower.

Also, although the Federation claims they never want war, you saw how angry Kirk was when the Organians stopped the Federation fleet from engaging the Klingon fleet. Even Spock noted "It's curious how you humans keep getting that which you don't want"

Cardassia is a resource poor planet. The Cardassian military invades other planets like Bajor and Minos Korva to keep its people from starving (not saying its justified, just explaining their side of things).

Personally I think Klingons, Romulans, Talarians, etc. make for more realistic enemies than the Borg. "One world's butcher is another world's hero". While the Talarian raid on Galen IV is seen as a brutal attack on a Federation colony by Starfleet officers, the Talarian see it as a heroic struggle to repel Federation expansion and invasion into one of their star systems.

 

[TheKeeper]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

In addition to the things already mentioned --

1. Cultural dissolution. Federation membership or other close association may water down one's own culture, as a simple side effect of the Federation's political, economic and military power (The Klingons in The Undiscovered Country.)

2. Even if a neighboring empire accepts the Federation's benevolent intentions now, things have a way of changing over time and the Feds might turn ugly later, when it's too late to resist (The Halkans in TOS' "Mirror, Mirror" said something to this effect.)

 

[The Wormhole]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Because having half the galaxy at the Federation's throat apparentally creates drama.

 

[Sci]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

But how, for example, did the UFP ever really get into its recent long and bloody war with the Cardassians? Even though the Cardassians are militaristic, even they know the UFP has no designs on them at all.

What makes you think that? What on Earth makes you think that any of these other empires "know" or otherwise trust the Federation not to be as hellbent on imperialism and conquest as they are?

You want a modern example? Read an issue of Foreign Affairs and tell me if any country anywhere on this planet trusts the more powerful countries not to be out for pure power. Whether it's Washington, Beijing, Moscow, Brussels, London, Brasilia, or New Delhi, they're all convinced the others are hell-bent on controlling them.

 

[Cepstrum]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

I see all of your points. I'm sure they're correct, and I'm misguided. But let me reiterate the genesis for my question:

On screen, several times other races seem to take the UFP's relative passivity seriously, for they mock it as silly and a significant weakness. That's what made me wonder why they don't trust the UFP. But then again, perhaps they're mocking their ideals and tacitly suggesting they really don't live up to them. You guys certainly gave enough examples to make that plausible.

 

[PointyHairedJedi]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Because having half the galaxy at the Federation's throat apparentally creates drama.

I was going to say this, and it's true, but I also remembered a wonderful bit of dialogue from a DS9 episode "Way of the Warrior" (part one):

QUARK: Here, I want you to try something for me. Take a sip of this.
GARAK: What is it?
QUARK: A human drink. It's called root beer.
GARAK: I don't know...
QUARK: Go ahead. Aren't you just a little bit curious?
[Garak hesitates a beat, but then takes a sip. He immediately makes a face.]
QUARK: What do you think?
GARAK: It's vile.
QUARK: I know. It's so bubbly and cloying and happy.
GARAK: Just like the Federation.
QUARK: But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you start to like it.
GARAK: It's insidious.
QUARK: Just like the Federation.

 

[Jefferies]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Currently, i.e. the late 24th century, I do not feel at all that the Federation's neighbours are hostile. If anything they are the complete opposite. The Klingons are close allies of the Federation and with Martok as chancellor this relationship is as aimiable as one could hope for.

The Romulans were also allied to the Federation after the Dominion War. The Shinzon interlude might have mixed things up a bit, but ultimately he was killed and his politics did not represent the legal Romulan government or public opinion. Furthermore, with the destruction of Romulus the Romulan empire is probably recieving significant aid from the Federation which will surely improve relations even further. Cardassia is another major reciever of Federation aid. In fact an argument could be made that both the Romulans and the Cardassians are beginning to fall under Federation hegemony becoming quite dependent on it. Therefore far from being hostile they seem to rather be on a path towards close association with the Federation maybe even eventual membership.

In addition, to these three major powers, the Federation's relations with the Ferengi Alliance have also improved as the years have gone by. Outside of that we have little information about relationships with other powers. Also, we know little about how things have developed with the Dominion. However, my bet would be that relations have normalised a great deal since the War, which means that even here hostility has diminished.

In conclusion, the Federation is currently in a very secure position. It's continuously expanding its influence without any noteworthy opposition and enjoys stable and enduring relationships with its neighbours who, with time, have become friends, allies or protectorates.

 

[Robert DeSoto]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

I see all of your points. I'm sure they're correct, and I'm misguided. But let me reiterate the genesis for my question:

On screen, several times other races seem to take the UFP's relative passivity seriously, for they mock it as silly and a significant weakness. That's what made me wonder why they don't trust the UFP. But then again, perhaps they're mocking their ideals and tacitly suggesting they really don't live up to them. You guys certainly gave enough examples to make that plausible.

They may be passive, but the Federation has been known to expand their territory in places where others have made territorial claims and the Federation fleet is one of the most powerful (and intimidating) in the Quadrant.

So they don`t see the Federation as the ballsiest power in the galaxy but that doesn`t mean they don`t see the Federation as a threat. If you had to be stuck in a room with one of two guys, one acts very passive, but he has gun, the other one is very aggressive, but is unarmed, I`d take my chances in a fist fight with the unarmed guy. At least I know I won`t get shot in a fist fight.

And as passive as the Federation is, its not like they never fought a war before. They`ve waged war with the Klingons, the Cardassians, the Tzenkethi, the Talarians. Earth fought against the Romulans. They`ve shed their share of blood in the galaxy. Of course the Federation will always say the other guy started it. But these things aren`t always clear cut, especially with disputed territories.

When the Dominion expanded into the Alpha Quadrant, they sent a large fleet, followed by five convoys worth of troops and additional warships. But none of these things are an act of war. Cardassia joined willingly (just like all of the Federation`s members) and if the Dominion wants to send warships to Cardassia, that`s their choice, it`s Dominion space now. But The Federation felt threatened by the Dominion expansion into the Alpha Quadrant and the size of the Dominion forces stationed in Cardassian space. They also didn`t like all the treaties the Dominion signed with Alpha Quadrant powers. So they mined the only path back to the Dominion`s motherland. It`s because of this that some people, like certain Romulans, blame the Federation for starting the war.

There`s always two sides to every fight and each person will say the other guy started it. But the truth is when you`re at or near the top dog, people are gonna try to bring you down. No matter who you are. Doesn`t matter if you`re CEO of a big company, the biggest gangster in the neighborhood, the most powerful country in the world, or the biggest interstellar power in the Alpha Quadrant. That`s just the way life goes.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

You want a modern example? Read an issue of Foreign Affairs and tell me if any country anywhere on this planet trusts the more powerful countries not to be out for pure power. Whether it's Washington, Beijing, Moscow, Brussels, London, Brasilia, or New Delhi, they're all convinced the others are hell-bent on controlling them.

They are right more often than not.

 

[SpyOne]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

My initial, wise-ass answer was that any power the Federation has encountered that wasn't hostile to them is now a part of the Federation.

A bit more seriously:
First, a lot of the powers believe the Federation is hypocritical: it says it pursues an agenda that is insanely altruistic, but then it fails to live up to those goals. Or maybe they just assume it's propaganda. Either way, when the Federation says "we have no interest in conquering you", they just don't believe it. It's too alien to their way of thought.

More specificly:
The Dominion doesn't hate all solids, they believe solids can't be trusted. That's a big difference. They want to conquer and enslave the Federation because they believe that to be the only way to protect themselves. They believe that if they make a treaty with the Federation, they will eventually be betrayed. They are a battered spouse writ large, and see becoming the abuser to be the only way to prevent becoming the abused.

The Cardassians are starved for resources, and see the Federation as competition for those resources. Even if the Federation stopped all expansion in the direction of Cardassia, Cardassia wants some of the planets the Federation already has. Cardassia is expansionistic, and sees the Federation as hemming it in. Add to this the Cardassians being slightly behind on tech, and they see a stronger Federation "keeping them down".

The Romulans may have the most realistic take on the Federation of any: any contact, even trade, is a threat. They see the culture of the Federation as a dangerous infection, changing every culture it comes into contact with. There is a lot to suggest that the Romulans don't deal well with change, not the least of which is that their ancestors reacted to a guy coming to power who believed it might be nice if people got a hold on their emotions and stopped killing each other by moving off the planet, quite possibly before developing warp drive. They rightly see the Federation as an instrument of change for their culture, and to prevent cataclysm they built a wall around themselves.
And the Federation just won't leave it alone. They keep wanting to "open a dialogue", "have diplomacy", "remain in contact". They don't seem to realize that, when the Romulans send an Ambassador to the Federation, they really don't want that guy back. Ever. He's been exposed, and now carries the infectious "Federationism" in his mind. The Ambassador has very little contact with his own government because they are trying to contain the damage. They don't want to talk to him. They only agreed to send him in the first place because they believed it would stop the Federation from doing something even worse, but the Federation does that "give them an inch and they want a mile" thing and starts in with the "Since we've exchanged Ambassadors, and that's working well, how about we open trade?"
What the Romulans want from the Federation is to be left alone. They would probably kill every last member of Starfleet if that's what it took, but they realize that they waited too long to see the full scope of the problem: a full out war between the Federation and the Romulans would probably not end in a Romulan victory, especially with the Klingons on the Federation side. And if the only way out is suicide, why take millions of other people with you?

-----------------------------------

I am reminded of this exchange between Kor and Kirk:
[KIRK: We have legitimate grievances against the Klingons. They've invaded our territory, killed our citizens. They're openly aggressive. They've boasted that they'll take over half the galaxy.
KOR: Why not? We're the stronger! You've tried to hem us in, cut off vital supplies, strangle our trade! You've been asking for war!
KIRK: You're the ones who issued the ultimatum to withdraw from the disputed areas!
KOR: They are not disputed! They're clearly ours.

The Federation and its neighbors are in competition. For territory, resources, even allies. Many of it's neighbors feel that the Federation is taking things that are "rightfully" theirs. Thus, the resentment.

 

[Jefferies]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

[...]a lot of the powers believe the Federation is hypocritical: it says it pursues an agenda that is insanely altruistic, but then it fails to live up to those goals. Or maybe they just assume it's propaganda. Either way, when the Federation says "we have no interest in conquering you", they just don't believe it. It's too alien to their way of thought.

Thing is the Federation makes no such claim. At no point in time have they ever proclaimed to persue an altruistic agenda. Just to remind everyone, true altruism means to reduce your own fitness in order to improve the fitness of someone else to your own detriment. In my eyes that constitutes treason by the government towards its people. The government of the Federation would never ever do such a thing, because it was a corner stone of Rodenberry's vision that in the future the government would be just and take good care of its people. Furthermore, the Federation is much more sensible then that. It tries to stabilise its environment through the means of SOFT POWER. That is, get everyone into a reciprocal and stable relationship with the Federation making any hostilty towards the Federation costly and counter productive. In these relationships many powers realise being associated with the Federation is so beneficial that they end up joining to further increase those benefits.

Call it insidous all you want, but it isn't really. Anyone can only join the Federation if the majority of the people want that to happen. It is also a long and rigorous process as was shown by the application of Bajor. There are so many opportunities to back out if one really wants to. The Federation is a great institution with the long term aim of creating peace, stability, wealth, development and freedom for everyone who gets invovled with it. And it does that through cooperation and exchange, without firing a single shot (unless it gets attacked). How on earth is that not a good thing?

 

[Cepstrum]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Wow, guys. Thanks for the well thought and articulate answers. It's helped me understand things (or at least changed my understanding).

One thing that was mentioned seems particularly salient: the UFP tends to zealously guard any pre-warp civilization's "natural" course of development. I could see where this would be a problem: for example, say a pre-warp planet is thinly populated and abundant in resources. One of the other Powers might want to establish relations to obtain those resources (or even just take them by force). I'd think the UFP would try to intervene and prevent this, which could lead to hostilities.

Another possible point of conflict: the UFP strongly believes people have a right to self-determiniation. Thus, if a planet/colony's people wish to join the UFP, they would probably be free to initiate steps to gain admittance. But if that planet is either close to or within the sphere of influence of another Power, I could see that that Power would not want this to happen.