When a person is beamed up it's not the same person

[Luther Sloan]

It isn't the original file; it just looks exactly like the original and you treat it exactly like the original, but it's a copy.

Pauln6:

Where is the line drawn? If I were to show you two originals (i.e. indistinguishable or identical twin versions), and you couldn't tell the difference between the original and the copy (and yet both are identical to each other in every way) what in the heck do you call them then? How could you name one a copy and the other one the original and know that you would be correct?

The point is that if you can't tell the difference. Then they are both twin identical versions or originals.

Besides, even if a person's state of being changed for an instant as living energy. That doesn't mean they are dead and then re-materialized as a copy. Their mind and body simply either went thru a phase (pushed into another flux type plane of existence) or was in a new living metamorphic state of being waiting to be converted back to it's original state.

But this is your attitude to 'replicants' not Kirk's. If in the 24th century clones have full rights once complete (DS9) and they consider these transporter replicants to be the 'real' people then of course he would be upset. We need to separate our attitudes from their futuristic attitudes and focus on the way they demonstrate the science on screen.

But that never happened! There is NO EVIDENCE that suggests that any Captain within Starfleet views his crew members as replicants or clones.

 

[T'Girl]

If in the 24th century clones have full rights once complete (DS9)

The main difference between a clone and a hypothetical transporter copy is that in the case of a clone the donor isn't consistently killed, with the transporter copy donor they are. Which is why I don't see the Federation and Starfleet allowing it's use with sentient beings. Cargo sure, but people would be required to use shuttles. Given that people do in fact use this gizmo means the originals do not dies as a standard procedure. Unless you can accept a profound alteration in human ethics, that then would coincide with the ethics of all the races in the Federation, then the transporter does deliver the actual original body to the destination, with the original individual personality "on board."

they consider these transporter replicants to be the 'real' people then of course he would be upset.

No. Kirk truly cares about his crew, he'll send them to their deaths only if he has to. Kirk was upset because he beamed two of the men under he's command out into open space. A less than pleasant death. There would have been communications with the families. A report to his superiors how a group of little children lead him to order the deaths of two "original" crew members.

We need to separate our attitudes from their futuristic attitudes and

With a few exceptions, the attitudes displayed in the 23rd/24th centuries are not that much different than our (well mine).

focus on the way they demonstrate the science on screen.

But this isn't just a examination and analysis of the operation of the transporter (which we've done). The OP did bring up the morality of the copying of "the old you" and what happen to your consciousness as a end result.

 

[Pauln6]

It isn't the original file; it just looks exactly like the original and you treat it exactly like the original, but it's a copy.

The point is that if you can't tell the difference. Then they are both twin identical versions or originals.

Besides, even if a person's state of being changed for an instant as living energy. That doesn't mean they are dead and then re-materialized as a copy. Their mind and body simply either went thru a phase (pushed into another flux type plane of existence) or was in a new living metamorphic state of being waiting to be converted back to it's original state.

That's exactly my point. They DON'T consider it to be a copy but technically, it is unless you adopt the phasing description where they are not being transformed into energy but replaced by energy from the other dimension while their physicality remains intact, albeit absent from our dimension.

But this is your attitude to 'replicants' not Kirk's. If in the 24th century clones have full rights once complete (DS9) and they consider these transporter replicants to be the 'real' people then of course he would be upset. We need to separate our attitudes from their futuristic attitudes and focus on the way they demonstrate the science on screen.

But that never happened! There is NO EVIDENCE that suggests that any Captain within Starfleet views his crew members as replicants or clones.[/QUOTE]

Again, that's exactly my point. They DON'T consider it to be a 'copy' but technically, it is.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

living energy

You keep repeating this theobabble, Luther Sloan. The peoblem is - it's non-sense.


You know what the difference is between energy beings and a person as 'energy' in the transporter?

Energy beings don't lose coherence, their information is not lost.

A person transformed into energy during transport degrades, loses coherence, information, is transformed into the equivalent of a puddle of organic goo AKA DIES (watch almost any episode dealing with the transporter; this is repeatedly stated).

At the beam down point, information from the pattern buffer is needed in order to 'refresh' this energy, to transform the puddle of organic goo into a copy of the original person.
Rewatch DS9: Our man Bashir - it's ESTABLISHED that what is in the pattern buffer is information that is copied into the station hard-drives: 0s and 1s. The 'energy' the station used to inscribe this information is most likely electricity or plasma; once inscribed, the hard-drives don't need energy to retain the information - much like your own hard-drive retains the information on it when your PS is shut down.

In other words - during transport, we can identify the moment the original dies and the moment a copy is created.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Again, that's exactly my point. They DON'T consider it to be a 'copy' but technically, it is.

Pauln6:

Depending on your point of view (of course).

You keep repeating this theobabble, Luther Sloan. The peoblem is - it's non-sense. You know what the difference is between energy beings and a person as 'energy' in the transporter? Energy beings don't lose coherence, their information is not lost.

Proto:

So are you saying it is impossible to transport an energy being then? Well, I believe it is possible to transport energy beings. So if that is true, then it is possible to lose their pattern (or coherence). This proves that energy beings can be transported and their patterns can be lost. Just because the transporter transforms you into unique living energy of it's own (with the physical instructions imbedded into itself (like a catepillar about to transform into a butterfly) to transform you back doesn't mean that it is not possible.

A person transformed into energy during transport degrades, loses coherence, information, is transformed into the equivalent of a puddle of organic goo AKA DIES (watch almost any episode dealing with the transporter; this is repeatedly stated).

But you are ignoring other evidence within the series to believe that theory. So it is not true.

At the beam down point, information from the pattern buffer is needed in order to 'refresh' this energy, to transform the puddle of organic goo into a copy of the original person. Rewatch DS9: Our man Bashir - it's ESTABLISHED that what is in the pattern buffer is information that is copied into the station hard-drives: 0s and 1s. The 'energy' the station used to inscribe this information is most likely electricity or plasma; once inscribed, the hard-drives don't need energy to retain the information - much like your own hard-drive retains the information on it when your PS is shut down. In other words - during transport, we can identify the moment the original dies and the moment a copy is created.

But we don't know that the Cardassian stations computers operate like a hard drive, though. And even if it did, this still doesn't mean that their energy patterns were converted into 1s and 0s. The episode never said that it was transcribing their patterns onto actual hard drives. Eddington could have simply wiped the necessary computer core space for their energy patterns to continue on inside the computers for all we know. Otherwise why would the Holosuite be effected then? It simply would have shut down the Holo program and saved their neural patterns. But because their patterns are saved as living energy, it effected the Holosuite in a very unusual way.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Luther Sloan

I'm saying that the 'energy' any person is transformed into during transport decays instantly aka loses energy aka dies - as is evident/stated in a dozen or more epidsodes.
Those glowing energy beings you sometimes encounter in trek are fundamentally different - they don't decay, they don't lose information.

And cardassian computers DO NOT operate with 'living energy'. The hard-drive, on the other hand, is an essential part of every computer - it's the memory.
In DS9: Our man Bashir, it WAS explicitly stated that the information for Sisko&co was stored in the 'computer memory' of the station. The holodecks were used to store the information - 0s and 1s - required for the bodies because the holodecks' hard-disks were built to store this kind of information (as explicitly stated in the episode).
This information was then used to 'mold' matter in the shape of Sisko&co - to make COPIES. The original Sisko&co were long gone. And the crew regarded this as a successful transport.

 

[Luther Sloan]

I'm saying that the 'energy' any person is transformed into during transport decays instantly aka loses energy aka dies - as is evident/stated in a dozen or more epidsodes.

Proto:

Just because a person's pattern degrades doesn't mean they lost that person. In VOY's "Counterpoint", the Doctor actually treats a bunch of telepaths for cellular degradation for remaining in the transporter for too long. They clearly didn't die when they materialized and were treated afterwards.

Also, in Star Trek (Besides the special circumstances given to us in Second Chances): the transporter can only transport a person once (under the normal operation of the transporter). This suggests that the transporter is not a copy machine. Because if the transporter was a copy machine, then you would never be able to lose a person during transport then.

Those glowing energy beings you sometimes encounter in trek are fundamentally different - they don't decay, they don't lose information.

But your assuming all energy beings have to be that way. I mean, just because we don't see energy beings existing like this normally within the Trek-verse does not preclude the possibility that they can exist in such a manner.

And cardassian computers DO NOT operate with 'living energy'. The hard-drive, on the other hand, is an essential part of every computer - it's the memory.
In DS9: Our man Bashir, it WAS explicitly stated that the information for Sisko&co was stored in the 'computer memory' of the station. The holodecks were used to store the information - 0s and 1s - required for the bodies because the holodecks' hard-disks were built to store this kind of information (as explicitly stated in the episode).
This information was then used to 'mold' matter in the shape of Sisko&co - to make COPIES. The original Sisko&co were long gone. And the crew regarded this as a successful transport.

Yeah, I was thinking of the station's computers in terms of being a software based storage system and not a hardware based storage system at the time. But you are right in this respect. The crew's transporter patterns were obviously stored onto some type of hard drive within the memory core of the station. But this doesn't mean that both transporter theories (that run contrary to the kill and be copied theory) are out of the water, though.

Transporter Theory #1 (Energy Being)

The transporter patterns of the DS9 crew exist as different readable energy on the Deep Space Nine's hard drives. Their patterns are not written as 1s and 0s but rather as energy beings residing as readable transporter data within the stations computer core.

Transporter Theory #2 (Dimensional Phase)

The transporter patterns of the DS9 crew are stored as 1s and 0s on the stations hard drive, while a phased energy / matter version of them exists just out of phase but tied to the transporter pattern or information like an anchor. Once the right code or genetic sequence (i.e. transporter pattern) is inputted into the transporter, their phased / energy material state is brought back out of quantum flux and is re-materialized.

Anyways, I think the real problem we are running into is that there is evidence to support both sides of the argument (when you look at all of the information). The transporter has been described by many different writers and it has given us conflicting information many times concerning it.

So in some ways you are correct. And in other ways I am correct. The transporter has been a bit of a conundrum because we have been given contradictory evidence of it.

 

[T'Girl]

Our man Bashir - it's ESTABLISHED that what is in the pattern buffer is information that is copied into the station hard-drives: 0s and 1s. The 'energy' the station used to inscribe this information is most likely electricity or plasma; once inscribed, the hard-drives don't need energy to retain the information - much like your own hard-drive retains the information on it when your PS is shut down.

most likely electricity or plasma

Thank you ProtoAvatar, that was the missing piece.

If the computer system on DS9 were a direct descendant to our computer systems then it would still store information using electricity, as binary language, zeros and ones. However, if it stores information as a form of plasma (just as the EPS system uses plasma to transfer power), then the system could have stored the original bodies of "Sisko & company" in their "energy state" suspended within the computer system as plasma.

Nice.

we can identify the moment the original dies and the moment a copy is created.

Yes. And given that we can now trace the journey of the transportee's energy state, from doomed runabout, to storage buffer, to station's computer, to the Defiant, to the transporter pad. It was never necessary to store Sisko and the others as "just" electro-magnetic zeros and ones, they remained as energy state the entire time. The computer system of DS9 is probably designed to hold individual packets of plasma for extended periods of time, in some cases years and decades.

Starfleet should look into this as a successor to the existing pattern buffer, it would appear to be superior.

I'm saying that the 'energy' any person is transformed into during transport decays instantly aka loses energy aka dies - as is evident/stated in a dozen or more epidsodes.

Correction, they degrade OVER TIME, the actual transporter process takes typically two or three odd seconds, not much time for people in their energy state to lose coherence.

... the transporter can only transport a person once (under the normal operation of the transporter). This suggests that the transporter is not a copy machine. Because if the transporter was a copy machine, then you would never be able to lose a person during transport then.

Returning to the episode And The Children Shall Lead, Captain Kirk knew with in seconds that he had transported two crewmen into space, if they were just copies (and they weren't) he could have IMMEDIATELY ordered their patterns to be simply rematerialized on the pad. Unfortunately the transporter doesn't work by making copies.

 

[Mytran]

Returning to the episode And The Children Shall Lead, Captain Kirk knew with in seconds that he had transported two crewmen into space, if they were just copies (and they weren't) he could have IMMEDIATELY ordered their patterns to be simply rematerialized on the pad. Unfortunately the transporter doesn't work by making copies.

Just realised that this is one of the most convincing arguments of all. Thanks, T'Girl!

 

[Luther Sloan]

Well, I just watched VOY's "Drone".

In the episode: The Doctor's Holo-emitter and Seven's Nano Probes get mixed together during an almost near fatal transporter accident. Eventually, this results in the stealing of DNA from a forgettable crew member from the newly Borg-fied Holo-Emitter which in turn creates a new special and highly advanced Borg drone that practically grows over night.

Well, the interesting thing I noticed about this episode is not in the transporter accident itself but in this new super Borg drone called "One". This highly advanced drone had "internal transporter nodes" of which he was capable of using himself as he saw fit. Which makes me wonder, how does "One" transport himself from one site to another if the transporters are built inside him?

I did some thinking about this and the only way I seen this working is if "One" beamed an internal transporter node ahead of himself using another internal transporter node in order to beam himself to the desired location. However, seeing the transporter technology is so advanced... these transporter nodes built inside him must have been small and they must have been able to create a near simultaneous switch (of the beaming process) between each other during transport.

Anyways, the kill and then be copied transporter theory doesn't really seem to apply to the transporter in this case because "One" had internal transporters that was pretty much 29th Century technology and was more advanced than any transporter that existed in the 24th Century. Surely, as soon as "One" was damaged, he should have immediately been able to re-fresh his old transporter pattern in order to defend or repair himself (as a natural reflex) well before he was able to think about the consequences of his existence (if indeed the transporter was a kill and be copied machine). I mean, it's the same reason why his Borg shields were still protecting him from the vacuum of space (even though he wanted to die). His shields were an automatic defense mechanism as a way of protecting himself. And if such a safe guard existed to protect himself in that piece of tech within his body, then his advanced transporters should have surely had a defense mechanism that replicated a duplicate copy himself over the original (in order for him to continue on).

 

[Luther Sloan]

The funny thing is if the transporter existed in real life, it would probably have to be a kill and then copy you type device. But the transporter on Star Trek is fiction, though. And we have seen some episodes that can give you the impression that it is a kill and then copy you type machine. So it is perfectly understandable that certain folks would want to grab ahold of this theory.

However, just because someone's pattern can be altered, or duplicated (under freakish conditions), or smashed together, or degraded (if suspended in the transporter for too long) or written onto another computer...

Doesn't mean that there are not alternative workable solutions (to the kill and copy you theory) to explain these incidents. No matter how fictional these theories may sound, we are in fact discussing a fictional piece of tech. So it really shouldn't matter if the theories or solutions are not 100% based in real life science (or shown within the series). As long as the theories support ALL (or the majority) of the information shown to us within Star Trek.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Well, star trek characters do say the transporter 'transports' the person, but the technology is consistently described as killing and copying the transportees.

At most, one could say that the 'energy' transported (you) would degrade to the point of killing you in ~a minute, but the tranposter lasts only a few seconds - meaning the tranposter just fries you medium-rare (not quite killing you) and at the beam-down point the information from the pattern buffer is used to 'heal' your injuries.

People who spend time as energy can do so only because they are 'refreshed' with information from pattern-buffers every few seconds - end even then, some errors slip through (Voy: Counterpoint).
In other words, in TNG: Realm of fear, while he was in an energy state, Barclay was deep-fried a dozen times and 'refreshed' each time. His 'irrational' fear of teleportation doean't sound so irrational anymore, does it?

Of course, even so, in several instances the tranporter clearly created copies 'Second chances'; 'Our man Bashir', for example.

T'Girl, no hard-disc stores information in the form of plasma, electricity or any other form of energy.
Why? Because this consumes energy!
Hard-discs use energy to ENCRYPT the information; keeping the information on them requires NO energy whatsoever - that's why, whe you shut down your PC, your hard-disc is not erased.

Luther Sloan - your theories about how Sisko&co could still exist are 'fantasy' more than 'fiction'. You use words that may appear in science, but the concepts they describe are 'out there' (no conection whatsoeveer with the laws of physics) - you could just as well say it's a magic spell.

You wish for a more or less reasonable explanation?
Here's one: Sisko&co were energy on the transporter pads, being 'refreshed' every few seconds by using information from the 'computer core' of DS9 during the entire episode.

 

[Smiley]

You've hit the nail on the head, ProtoAvatar. It's not science, it's magic. They can use technobabble, but the truth is that there is no way to make a device that functions like the Trek transporter according to our current understanding of the universe. It's just a convenient device used for a TV show that saves on budget and time.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Luther Sloan - your theories about how Sisko&co could still exist are 'fantasy' more than 'fiction'. You use words that may appear in science, but the concepts they describe are 'out there' (no conection whatsoeveer with the laws of physics) - you could just as well say it's a magic spell.

Proto:

Yes. But fantasy is fiction (they are both not real). That's exactly my point. Just because my theory sounds like magic doesn't mean it couldn't be the way that the transporter operates. It might seem way out there (and even beyond your realm of believability). But many things in fiction are way out there. Besides, with all of the conflicting information that was given to us about the transporter you either will regard the transporter as magic (being unexplained) or you try and fit all of the contradictory evidence together in some strange but possible theory.

But to take only one part of what was shown to us about the transporter and ignore the rest is being selective. You are not taking everything in account of the big picture.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

transporter

we are in fact discussing a fictional piece of tech. So it really shouldn't matter if the theories or solutions are not 100% based in real life science (or shown within the series). As long as the theories support ALL (or the majority) of the information shown to us within Star Trek.

I'm surprised that this thread has generated 355 replies for a General Trek Discussion that has gotten very technical regarding science.

It's been said before

I think what it essentially boils down to is the fact that Star Trek is a television series and transporter technology is a purely fictional device serving the convenience of the plot.

It's just a convenient device used for a TV show that saves on budget and time.

The funny thing is if the transporter existed in real life

I thought this was a philosophical question and metaphysical debate.
Luther Sloan Perhaps you should check out this thread in the Trek Tech forum:
Many Questions - Transporter

 

[Luther Sloan]

Yes. There may have been a debate on whether or not the transporter is not really real. That is why the kill and be copied theory should not be used. The transporter is not real science. Especially, when the transporter on the TV series had shown us contradictory information about it's inner workings.

And that thread just proves the point that you can't apply real life science (i.e. the kill and be copied theory) to a transporter if that it is not what was shown to us (in light of all of the conflicting information given to us about the transporter).

It's either magic. Or it's an amazing device that works totally unlike how you think it would.

However, I still like the two theories that run contrary to the kill & be copied theory, though.

 

[T'Girl]

T'Girl, no hard-disc stores information in the form of plasma, electricity or any other form of energy. Why? Because this consumes energy! Hard-discs use energy to ENCRYPT the information; keeping the information on them requires NO energy whatsoever - that's why, whe you shut down your PC, your hard-disc is not erased.

Eddington: Computer, this is a command priority override. Wipe all computer memory necessary in order to save the patterns from the buffer.

ProtoAvatar, I, for one, never said they were stored inside of a hard drive, I can't remember Star Trek ever using the term "Hard Drive" at any point. If the DS9 computer memory used discrete packets of plasma as a storage medium for information, then team Sisko could have been stored in the same fashion. Holding them in the system wouldn't have consumed any extra power than the system normally used. Once transferred into the plasma containment system, the energy state of the officers would themselves have consumed no energy at all.

It would have been the classic isolated system, team Sisko's energy state would have remained constant over time, regardless of how much time they spent in the containment system, that's basic physics. This is why I said it was superior to the pattern buffer.

the technology is consistently described as killing and copying the transportees.

Which ONE of the episodes described transportee's being killed, using that language?

 

[Luther Sloan]

Did some reading at Memory Alpha, ECT.

Electro Plasma System -

The electro-plasma system (EPS for short, or more specifically the electro-plasma distribution network, as engineers like to call it) is the primary form of energy distribution on starships and space stations (like Deep Space Nine).

Essentially, these systems were used involving the warp core and giving energy or different forms of energy through the ship. These systems might have powered the computers, but they were not the actual circuitry for the computers.

Isolinear circuitry -

Isolinear circuitry was the basis of much 24th century Federation computer technology, replacing duotronics which were prevalent on Federation starships in the 23rd century.

Isolinear rods -

Isolinear rods were used on Deep Space Nine which would suggest that they had Isolinear based computer systems.

Isolinear Possibility -

However, although the books are not canon: It is mentioned in the TNG's Relics Novel that Isolinear circuitry employs holographic technology to store data three-dimensionally throughout the medium, though. This would suggest that (living) energy patterns wouldn't have a problem with residing as energy within this type of circuitry and not as stored 1s and 0s like a normal hard drive like we have today (here in the present).

Side Note:

Granted, generally I don't like using the books if I don't have to within the Trek-verse: but in this case, because the transporter is so mysterious, I think looking at a novel adaptation of a TNG episode is a pretty good idea to make some sense of things.

Sources:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Electro-plasma_system
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Isolinear_rod
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Isolinear_circuitry
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Relics

 

[ProtoAvatar]

T'Girl

Only a brain-dead engineer would make a hard-drive - a computer memory, if you prefer - which stores information as 'discrete packets of plasma' or any other form of energy.
Why? Because such a 'computer memory' would require energy to be consumed constantly in order to retain the information, and, as soon as the 'computer memory' is unplugged, the information would be lost.

Consider - even today, we have hard-drives - computer memories - that don't need to constantly consume energy in order to retain the information inscribed on them.
Further - on multiple occasions it was shown that trek 'computer memories' don't lose the information on them when they are unplugged.

Your notion that the energy that made Sisko&co is somehow in the computer memory is even falsified by the constant description of the transporter system - the Sisko&co energy degrades while it is transported (meaning it's NOT in the pattern buffer who stays in the transporter room) and then it needs information (and this is what is to be found in the pattern buffer) to be 'refreshed'. It was this information that was stored on DS9's hard-drives.
And let's consider just how much energy would make 4 persons - we're talking the equivalent of hundreds of megatonnes. That's an energy intensive PC all right.


"Which ONE of the episodes described transportee's being killed, using that language?"

I said "the technology is consistently described as killing and copying the transportees".
Most likely, that wasn't the intention of the scenarists - but they didn't think the technology through, giving it the description of a copy machine.


Luther Sloan

Again with your 'living energy' theobabble. Give a less fuzzy description for it; otherwise, it's non-sense. We're talking about technology, not faith and prayers.
Throughout this thread, you started with what you wish the conclusion to be - 'they're not copies' - and then "justified" it with meaningless terms such as 'living energy' or ~'phase shifted bodies anchored to information'.

As for holographic storage - it employs 0s and 1s (in binary systems) just as two-dimensional storage.

 

[T'Girl]

ProtoAvatar, it is unlikely by the 24th century they will still be using binary language (ones and zeros) in their computers, unlikely we'll be using this system ourselves more than a another decade or so. An OUM system is close, which will allow using base ten and realistically bases in the hundred, then bases in the thousands. Digital multistate characteristic of phase change materials will permit the storage and processing of digits associated with any arithmetic base.

But that's language, you still require a data storage medium, the advantage of a plasma system, let's us say a anisothermal plasma, is the incredible density of the medium, the actual storage could be the individual vibrations of each particle type. Externally scanned, the frequency of the vibrations in each plasma packets collection of high energy particles would have an assigned value.

Given the need to have shielded containment of EPS conduits and the more demanding requirements of the warp core plasma containmnent, the technical and power requirement of the level of plasma used in the computer system would be minor in comparison. Given the (relatively) low pressure of a anisothermal plasma and the material science of the 24th century, it's possible that a physical containment would be all that is needed. Should still be shielded.

In the event of a total power failure, the system would become a closed one, there would be no loss of information, of course you would not be able to access it. And you could move it around in the appropriate vessel too, just like you could with your stone knives and bearskins "hard disc."

And it was you ProtoAvatar who suggested in post number 344 that plasma was involve in information storage, admittedly in a different way than I'm describing.

Essentially, these systems were used involving the warp core and giving energy or different forms of energy through the ship. These systems might have powered the computers, but they were not the actual circuitry for the computers.

The computers on DS9 are Cardassian, not Federation, and are described by O'Brian repeatedly as "different." The isolinear rod components were to my understanding something which was added on to the existing Cardassian system.

T'Girl. Only a brain-dead engineer would make a hard-drive ...

In the 24th century? We're in agreement there. I mean the damned things spin for God's sake. ProtoAvatar why don't you just keep your information on 19th century phonograph records (78 rpm of course).