As I said before, semantics.
When a person is beamed up it's not the same person
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Dude, "semantics" must be at least a little important. Words have meanings.
If semantics were as irrelevant as you suggest, you'd just type "adslkgf aslkfjds asdlieeeeeegf" and declare that you had won.
If you tell me that water is dry, I'm going to disagree. And when I say that water is the very definition of "wet", and that wet and dry are antonyms, "that's just semantics" is not a defense of your position.
So tell me again, clearly, why do you insist that the "matter stream" is energy and not matter?
PS: I have edited my post above to more completely reply to your post. You might want to revisit it.
It doesn't matter, "dude." You can call it whatever you want, but it doesn't change anything as far as onscreen material is concerned.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
What happens to a human body when it's stabbed in the chest?
It looses information - it's composed of the exact same elements as before , but they're not ordered like before.
How does a transporter work?
First, it scans one on the quantum level (heinsemberg compensators), storing this information in the pattern buffer.
In DS9: Our man Bashir, it was this information that filled all hard-drives of the station - computer memory stores information, it's not a capacitor that stores energy.
Second, the body is 'dematerialised', its matter turned into some unspecified form of energy.
What is known about this 'energy' is that it can't hold the information necessary to build a human - it degrades rapidly (evidence in practically any episode dealing with transporter malfunctions). This is why the body needs to be scanned in the first place, in order to preserve the information that 'defines' a person'.
Third, the body is rematerialised, using the information stored in the pattern buffers.
Attention - the 'energy' degraded to a level at which, if it is 'rematerialised' without using information from the pattern buffers, the body transported is dead (evidence in practically any episode dealing with transporter malfunctions). This body lost information, the person died, regardless if the copy is composed of the same atoms or not.
What is rematerialised is a copy of the person. And, in TNG: Second chances, it is shown how more than one copy can be created.
It looses information - it's composed of the exact same elements as before , but they're not ordered like before.
How does a transporter work?
First, it scans one on the quantum level (heinsemberg compensators), storing this information in the pattern buffer.
In DS9: Our man Bashir, it was this information that filled all hard-drives of the station - computer memory stores information, it's not a capacitor that stores energy.
Second, the body is 'dematerialised', its matter turned into some unspecified form of energy.
What is known about this 'energy' is that it can't hold the information necessary to build a human - it degrades rapidly (evidence in practically any episode dealing with transporter malfunctions). This is why the body needs to be scanned in the first place, in order to preserve the information that 'defines' a person'.
Third, the body is rematerialised, using the information stored in the pattern buffers.
Attention - the 'energy' degraded to a level at which, if it is 'rematerialised' without using information from the pattern buffers, the body transported is dead (evidence in practically any episode dealing with transporter malfunctions). This body lost information, the person died, regardless if the copy is composed of the same atoms or not.
What is rematerialised is a copy of the person. And, in TNG: Second chances, it is shown how more than one copy can be created.
I must have hit a nerve there...oh well.
Apparently, you have nothing to offer.
You never did have anything to offer.
All you're been going on and on and on about is over terminology. "It's not energy," "It's not energy," "It's not energy"--even though onscreen material says it is indeed so. You yourself have admited--more than once, I might add--that a matter stream is a form of energy, but you seem to be seriously hung up on specific terms.
It doesn't matter (no pun intended) what you call it. They simply call it energy. And when it comes down to what is said on the show compared to what you say, I'll take what is said on the show...
All you're been going on and on and on about is over terminology. "It's not energy," "It's not energy," "It's not energy"--even though onscreen material says it is indeed so. You yourself have admited--more than once, I might add--that a matter stream is a form of energy, but you seem to be seriously hung up on specific terms.
It doesn't matter (no pun intended) what you call it. They simply call it energy. And when it comes down to what is said on the show compared to what you say, I'll take what is said on the show...
Proto Avatar:
But your theory is wrong no matter how correct it sounds or makes sense. The transporter has never operated under this premise. Despite it's function it transports the original person. It might even be a contradiction in how it works even. But the fact of the matter is that it works like a car ride and doesn't kill a person and doesn't make a copy. No matter what pieces of information you try and stitch together and say.
However, the transporter can still operate under the information that we have been given from the series, though.
In other words: Your body doesn't die. It is simply converted into living energy where your physical pattern is waiting to be converted back. The energy state (i.e. neural patters) between de-materialization and re-materialization is simply alive during transport. Otherwise the Federation would have the power over what lives and what dies (by just using a person's DNA).
Simply put, the transporter cannot replicate life. It merely transforms and transports it. And to assume that you are dead during the energy process is just that. An assumption. Also, many energy beings exist within Star Trek. It is not illogical to think that the transporter wouldn't keep you alive during the process in some way. Even your physical body could still be alive but out of phase with our reality for a brief time until it is called back into the physical world using the right DNA key code (i.e. transporter pattern) to align it with our normal plane of existence.
Side Note:
To put it another way:
If the transporter did in fact kill you, and you were actually dead during the transporter process.... then how is it able to bring you back to life as another version?
That is: If the pattern is dead. Then you are dead. If the pattern is alive. You are alive!!! It's just that simple folks.
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Plausible. There are certainly similarities, though whether the two methods are identical is open to debate.
That's a good idea, and makes a lot of sense. Is it canon, or did you come up with it yourself? (Please do NOT think that I am in any way trying to be dismissive. For clarities sake I like to be open about such things, clearly labelling my own speculations to differentiate them from facts. A safeguard of the type you suggest does make sense).
Yeah, that works for me. I am satisfied that the transporter sends a person from point to point, not a double. And this appears to be a possible way of doing it.
I read a few pages and skimmed the rest. Has anyone figured out how "Rascals" and "Unnatural Selection" fit into a unified transporter theory? I know that the writers just needed a way for their cast members to be in the next episode, but I'm curious if anybody has some clever workaround for those uses of the transporter.
That's funny. I was actually planning to watch "Unnatural Selection" today. I will let you know more when I re-watch it.
Oh, and I forgot to add: Your not a copy either. Doctor Crusher even medically attests to the fact. Plus, the transporter is simply like the fictional time travel device that under the right circumstances... it could allow you to run into an identical original version (i.e. not a copy) of yourself.
I mean, technically over a life time, you died dozens of times: skin cells die and re-grow all the time. But you are still the same person. Why? Because it is still your exact DNA dying and re-growing, dying and re-growing (over and over).
I mean, technically over a life time, you died dozens of times: skin cells die and re-grow all the time. But you are still the same person. Why? Because it is still your exact DNA dying and re-growing, dying and re-growing (over and over).
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Luther Sloan, the difference between a few liters of water, carbon, etc and your body is information. When your body looses this information you die.
Energy beings don't degrade while in their energy form.
'Energy' in the transporter degrades aka looses information aka dies.
Trek tech may claim the transporter doesn't copy a person - but the way it described the transporter, the transporter DOES copy a person - and kills the original.
There is a relatively recent field, 'synthetic biology' - look it up on wikipedia - which made significant advances in 'creating life' by bringing all the substances a cell is made of together; once all these substances are assembled, the cell should begin to function, according to physics and chemistry. NO MAGICAL SPARK OF LIFE REQUIRED.
According to physics and chemistry, if all the banal elements you are made of are put together in the exact pattern that characterises your body, a copy of you will be born - believing it's you, having the exact same body and mind, but being a copy, distinct from you.
Star trek did this in TNG: Second chances - two Rikers.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
The superposition concept is more elegant than what is described in star trek, but what it is not is a transporter as described in star trek:
'Dematerialization' and 'rematerialization' never happen during superposition; you would be in more places at once, but still the material you, not some weird fictional energy.
'Pattern buffers' and 'heisenberg compensators' (to scan you and retain your information) are not required during superposition; during superposition, you are in as much danger of losing information, of dying as you are now, in your 'standard' material form.
Proto:
But do you really lose that information if such said information is still there existing in a living energy state to be re-materialized seconds later?
Well, this one does.
Not according to what has been said and shown to us within the series. And the series and films are what is canon here.
But you are comparing real world science with something a writer created over 40 years ago. You either accept that there is some mysterious element to the technology that you don't understand, or find some other reason to explain the flaw within the fictional device. Because that is all it is. A fictional device. Taking the fictional device out of it's original context to fit your more realistic view of it would not be accurate of how the fictional device was presented to us on the show.
In fact, there is a lot of science within Star Trek that doesn't make sense. How come we hear explosions in space when there is no sound in space?
You can't always apply real world science to a fictional series!
You might want to. But it wouldn't be an accurate representation of that fictional series.
Time traveling back in time to see yourself proves that two originals can occupy the same space time. Just because a transporter creates two people under freakish conditions doesn't automatically mean it is a copy. But rather... two originals occupying the same space time.
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Proto:
1. Kirk says you are converted into energy and you are converted back to your original self again (TOS - Savage Curtain).
2. Inside the matter stream: Reg (right before de-molecularization) is phased into half energy and half matter (TNG - Realm of Fear).
3. Your neural pattern exists separate from your physical pattern as energy in the transporter buffer. This suggests that the mind could live on as energy. Meaning your not really dead but just in a different form waiting to be re-materialized again (DS9 - Our Man Bashir).
Perhaps your physical pattern (which is out of phase) is tied to the energy pattern like an anchor. If the energy pattern loses cohesion then so does the physical pattern in the other dimension or frequency of quantum flux or whatever.
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ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Luther Sloan
Various episodes made clear that the energy (or whatever) your matter was transformed into during transport degrades aka looses information aka dies.
When you are rematerialized, this energy (now corresponding to a DEAD body aka a body that lost information much like being stabbed or shot) is refreshed with the INFORMATION from the pattern buffers aka a copy is made.
And make no mistake, the pattern buffers contain information, not some 'living' theobabble energy - in DS9: Our man Bashir, it was information (describing bodies and brains of humanoids) that filled all hard-drives on the station.
PS - I responded to 3D Master regarding his theory about superposition transporting - a more ingenious solution to the problem, but it's not what trek describes.
Your responsse merely reinforced my point that superposition is not what happens in trek.
Various episodes made clear that the energy (or whatever) your matter was transformed into during transport degrades aka looses information aka dies.
When you are rematerialized, this energy (now corresponding to a DEAD body aka a body that lost information much like being stabbed or shot) is refreshed with the INFORMATION from the pattern buffers aka a copy is made.
And make no mistake, the pattern buffers contain information, not some 'living' theobabble energy - in DS9: Our man Bashir, it was information (describing bodies and brains of humanoids) that filled all hard-drives on the station.
PS - I responded to 3D Master regarding his theory about superposition transporting - a more ingenious solution to the problem, but it's not what trek describes.
Your responsse merely reinforced my point that superposition is not what happens in trek.
Another episode that has interesting ties to this discussion is "Deadlock." From what I'm remembering, both of those Voyagers and their crew were the original versions. The Harry Kim that made it out alive might be from a different ship than the rest of the group, but it is not valid to say that one group or the other are copies of the other. I see it as analogous to the "Second Chances" scenario. A person was split by an anomaly in a mitosis-like fashion that created two original versions of the character.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Smiley, when you have two DISTINCT of anything, one is the original and one is a copy. By definition, you can't have two originals.
Distinct aka one is not tied to the other any longer.
You and your future version are NOT DISTINCT, you two are tied to each other - you see, at some point in the future you will have to travel back in time and become future you.
Riker 1 and Riker 2 ARE DISTINCT - Riker 1 won't have to travel back in time and become Riker 2; if Riker 1 dies Riker 2 won't care/disappear, etc.
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