Just what is so bad about 'These Are The Voyages'..?

[Saquist]

I think it's the worse of the Series enders easily but it's not the worse episode ever, Too many Ferengi Episodes at that the top of that list.

First Place: What You Leave Behind: DEEP SPACE NINE
Second Place: All Good Things : THE NEXT GENERATION
Third Place: End Game : Voyager
LAST PLACE: These are the VOYAGES: ENTERPRISE

 

[Luther Sloan]

Yes. And lets not forget Encounter at Farpoint, too. That pilot was a major snooze fest. At least you can get thru TATV in one sitting without sleeping thru it.

 

[Saquist]

TRUE.

 

[gblews]

I think what makes that more significant is that the public by and large just didn't care about the ending of this show or it's existence.

If your point here is that not enough people watched the show while it was on to keep it on the air, then I'de say you're pointing out the obvious.

But there was a huge reaction to the announcement of the show's ending. The reaction by fans occurred all over the country and in some foreign countries. In fact something happened that had never happened before after a T.V. series was canceled; there was a serious effort to finance another season with money contributed by fans.

The movement raised several million dollars and got a serious response from Paramount, albeit a negative one. But the point is that the effort was serious enough to get the attention of major media all over the world and the studio was forced to address the issue. This didn't happen when TNG, Voy, or even DS9 were cancelled.

So you're wrong when you write that no one cared when it was announced that the show was ending.

 

[Mach5]

Yes. And lets not forget Encounter at Farpoint, too. That pilot was a major snooze fest. At least you can get thru TATV in one sitting without sleeping thru it.

Weird. Farpoint was bad, but I actually enjoyed it. I wonder what it would look like without my nostalgia goggles though...

 

[DevilEyes]

This didn't happen when TNG, Voy, or even DS9 were cancelled.

They were not cancelled.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Weird. Farpoint was bad, but I actually enjoyed it. I wonder what it would look like without my nostalgia goggles though...

Mach 5:

Yeah, TNG was the first Trek that got me hooked actually. Even though I watched TOS a little when I was kid in the 80s. But yeah, I know what you mean, though. Nostalgia definitely plays a factor into liking certain things, thats for sure.

Maybe I will feel differently about Encounter at Farpoint when I finish in re-watching it.

This didn't happen when TNG, Voy, or even DS9 were cancelled.

They were not cancelled.

DE:

Well said.

 

[gblews]

This didn't happen when TNG, Voy, or even DS9 were canceled.

They were not cancelled.

Really? I'll have to double check that. Anyway, the point was that Ent's cancellation did cause quite an unprecedented stir among the faithful.

 

[Owain Taggart]

Being cancelled is when a show abruptly ends not getting a chance to complete their planned run. Very rarely do they get a chance to close things out. Often they will end on a cliffhanger.

That said, I would say TNG didn't get cancelled. It had a good run of 7 years, and a good sendoff. It had time to tell its story. Same with DS9 and VOY. They all pretty much followed their roadmap. Seven years is a pretty standard run, I think. Some shows even stay longer than that, like Stargate SG-1 and MASH.

Now then, TOS did get cancelled after 3 seasons, followed by the letter writing campaign in the 60's by fans. So did Enterprise, but I think Enterprise was a little luckier in actually being able to write themselves out. Other cancellation examples would be Jericho and Futurama.

I feel that using the term of being "cancelled" is overused, and I guess that's one of my pet peeves.

 

[SFRabid]

The only thing certain about canceled is everyone seems to use their own definition, depending on if they like ENT or hate it. It comes down to two facts.

TNG, DS9 and VOY had 7 seasons while ENT had 4.
TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT all had planned endings and went into the last season knowing it would be the last.

As someone said, way too many scifi shows end the season with a cliffhanger and never return to resolve it. I've been burned too many times by major networks showing scifi. Two that come to mind is the original showing of V and that series about the sea creatures that were drilling into the mantle and trying to flood the earth. Anyone remember the name of that show?

 

[TheGodBen]

^^ Ah, fond remembrance. (Of TheGodBen's colorful reviews.)

Enterprise is always with me in spirit.

I can't help it, Scott Bakula just wont leave me alone!

Except for the profanity, that was very well articulated.

Really? I've read it several times and I'm quite upset with how it came out, particularly in the first section.

I'm very proud of the profanity though.

As someone said, way too many scifi shows end the season with a cliffhanger and never return to resolve it.

Like ALF. Damn you NBC!

Enterprise almost ended on the season 3 cliffhanger, didn't it? I heard that B&B feared that the show would be cancelled, so they threw in the alien nazis so that the fans would demand another season to resolve it, but by the time the episode aired the show had already been renewed with a slashed budget. And you know what the sad thing is? Even ending the show on a nonsensical alien nazi would have made for a better finale than TATV.

 

[buckeyenation]

Here's why I hate it: it uses The Next Generation cast like a crutch, and it doesn't need one; they kill Tucker;the story seemed rushed and choatic.And last but not least, THEY KILLED TUCKER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It just seemed so unnecessary.

 

[caisson2delta]

I never thought it was fair send off for the cast and crew. It also seemed rushed. I loved the series and it would have been great to get a full 7 seasons, but I much rather would have it end than get run into the ground and the stories become crap. I just think it could've been done much better. I really didn't have an issue with TNG characters in the episode, the story just should've been handled better.

 

[Luther Sloan]

I was actually excited about the concept for the episode. I think there was potential to really write a good story for TATV. However, sadly that didn't happen.

 

[RAMA]

It really isn't a bad episode, but people have their own biases against it.

Yeah, some people are just so biased in favor of good storytelling, good characterization, good dialogue, plots that make sense, and series finales that focus on the main characters of the show rather than guest stars from a different show.

And yet, the simple fact it focused a lot on other characters from another show and a favorite character dies doesn't a bad episode make...my point is, once you get past that Trekker bias, its really not a bad episode. Knee jerk reactions don't make for good reviews.

RAMA

 

[Kai Winn]

was it the send off for tng or ent, anyway, because they shared the screen time about equally? never to see troi again is actually the redeeming factor, can't think of another one. watched 'the pegasus' a couple of times and felt all the characters were quite busy, so how did riker find the time to watch lengthy movies on the holodeck? to which extent they would help with his particular problem escaped me too, i mean if the president of the federation finds inspiration in the story that's ok, but one of hundreds of thousands of commanders, that's somewhat presumptuous. pity the love story of trip and t'pol went nowhere after the previous episode indicated something, not only due to his death. did he die, anyway? two minutes after he passed away he was back alive. who ressurected shran from the dead? ungrateful guy, he was. tucker lies fatally injured in sickbay from the fight with shran's enemies, shran should really drop in for a sec. enterprise's crew didn't feel a great sense of grief either. for all the episode i had been looking forward to archer's speech, but it's riker who ends the episode saying 'computer, end program'. nice one.

 

[Cyke101]

It really isn't a bad episode, but people have their own biases against it.

Yeah, some people are just so biased in favor of good storytelling, good characterization, good dialogue, plots that make sense, and series finales that focus on the main characters of the show rather than guest stars from a different show.

And yet, the simple fact it focused a lot on other characters from another show and a favorite character dies doesn't a bad episode make...my point is, once you get past that Trekker bias, its really not a bad episode. Knee jerk reactions don't make for good reviews.

RAMA

Is it suitable as a series finale?

And can anyone have a knee jerk reaction, either for or against something, five years after the fact?

Also, on perhaps a separate note: if the cast tells us an episode is bad, should we take their word for it?

Lastly, at least according to the episode's Wiki page, the negative criticism extends far beyond what you describe as "Trekker Bias"; traditionally non Trek (hell, non sci-fi) media like MSNBC, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, and USA Today echoed many of the same criticisms brought up in this thread.

 

[DevilEyes]

It really isn't a bad episode, but people have their own biases against it.

Yeah, some people are just so biased in favor of good storytelling, good characterization, good dialogue, plots that make sense, and series finales that focus on the main characters of the show rather than guest stars from a different show.

And yet, the simple fact it focused a lot on other characters from another show and a favorite character dies doesn't a bad episode make...my point is, once you get past that Trekker bias, its really not a bad episode. Knee jerk reactions don't make for good reviews.

RAMA

But a plot that makes no sense, bad characterizations and a complete disregard for the last 2 seasons worth of character development (not to mention a discontinuity even with the season 7 of TNG) do. And the fact that they focused on characters from a different show who have never been on ENT before compounds the problems. In fact, the latter would be a far more serious problem for someone who is not a "Trekker". B&B expected everyone to be delighted to see Riker and Troi just because they were TNG characters. If you had either never watched TNG (and why would every person watching ENT in the 2000s have to even be familiar with it?) or you were familiar but you just weren't a big fan, Riker and Troi's appearance in the finale would come as even more random. (Who are these people, why am I watching them talk about some problems of theirs I'm unfamiliar with, and why should I care?) Pretty much everything in the episode felt random - random appearance of the guest stars, totally random Shran plot, random lame villains boarding Enterprise, random and stupid death of a main character.

Yes, it is a bad episode, from every point of view. And certainly every critic would see that making a finale of a show about the first appearance of characters from another show does not a good finale make. This kind of thing works for a fun crossover episode in the middle of a season. But finale... no.

For good reviews, I refer you to this: http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3777372&postcount=929

 

[flemm]

B&B expected everyone to be delighted to see Riker and Troi just because they were TNG characters.

It was probably written with people like me in mind, or I should say: people like I was at the time that it aired.

By which I mean: I had been a big TNG fan in high school, had stopped watching Trek since, in part due to simply not watching much television, and in part due to finding that the later incarnations of Trek (Voyager and ENT) did not hold my interest. I had no animosity toward ENT, had only watched a few episodes, but still had a strong sentimental attachment to TNG.

So, when I heard what was being done with finale I made a point of watching it. I enjoyed it as a nostaglic look back on the TNG years, and the rest didn't bother me because I didn't really care.

That doesn't make it a good finale, obviously, but I do think it basically explains what happened: it wasn't a finale for ENT, but a finale for the TNG years and a sort of farewell that the producers hoped would draw in a lot of Trek fans who hadn't really been paying attention in a while. It's one of those decisions that makes sense from a certain point of view, and yet simply does not sit well with the fans of the actual show, who understandably want something that caters to them and wraps up the stories they have been following in a more satisfying way.

 

[Ssosmcin]

The episode had potential, but in a nutshell, I think the reaction was so strong because the episode followed seconds after the previous (UPN aired them back to back), which put Trip and T'Pol back on course with their relationship, and was an exciting and emotionally strong episode. It did, in effect, tie up some loose ends lying about the series. Then the actual finale starts off by saying Trip and T'Pol ended their relationship within months of the previous episode. So all of that build up and character development was for naught. Trip's death? I was okay with the character dying, but it was rushed and there was no reaction from most of the other characters. The only thing his death did was keep him from appearing at the end of the episode. I'm happy he went out saving the ship, but it was saving it from a group of thugs with no series history who looked like rock stars. Plus the poor guy doesn't even get a death scene. Not even a bad one.

Riker and Troi: I understand, people age and years have passed and TNG uniforms are unforgiving. The moment I saw Riker and Troi, all I could focus on was how much older - and larger - they were. It was painfully obvious 11 years had passed since The Pegasus was filmed. There was no real suspense or interest to Riker's story since we knew Riker was going to talk to Picard - we saw the episode already. What would have made this more visually consistent and even more interesting would have been to place the holodeck on the Titan and have "present day" Riker and Troi deal with the issue. And, seriously, doesn't Marina Sirtis even try to sound like Deanna Troi anymore? She was, frankly, terrible, not to mention smug.

Honestly, I don't mind an episode treating Enterprise as history and being used to help solve a problem via the holodeck. It was just so poorly realized. I didn't mind missing Archer's speech if only because we already got a rousing alien-unity speech at the end of Terra Prime, and it was a great speech. I don't think anything would have topped Soval being the first to stand and applaud. Hell of a character arc.

I consider it a fair episode and there are a number of well done and interesting scenes. Seeing the Galaxy Class Enterprise again was great, and if this were done in the second season, it might have been something of a standout. However, as a finale, it fails to do justice to a series which had gotten its act together gave us two consistently good years. It deserved a full run, and I still hate that they were robbed. But them's the breaks.

Had they used Demons/Terra Prime as a two hour and put the ending montage on THAT show, it would have been an amazing finale. These Are The Voyages is a fair episode which falls short of potential. But as a series finale, it's horrible. The bitter taste it leaves is augmented by the fact that much of the cast hated it before we did. Although, I loved when Archer hugged T'Pol. That was a nice "thank you" for everything.