Should they bring back Janeway?

[kimc]

problem is, there are just as many vocal people here that DON'T want what you want. Can dismiss one side or the other as just BBS venting, but the 'keep Janeway dead, as-is' crowd does have one thing going for it that the MJFs don't: Sales went up when they made that decision, and have remained strong. Points towards continuing the current line...

You're making some erroneous assumptions here. First, you're assuming that those who voted not to bring her back hate her as you do. Given many of the comments in this thread though there is a legitimate concern that yet another sci fi "death and rebirth" story could not be done well.

Also, you're assuming that sales going up is due to Janeway dying. Pocket, however, must be attributing a good portion of that to Beyer otherwise they could have gotten someone else to write the next book.

Imo, there's no reason they can't "continue the current line" yet bring back Janeway in some fashion and do it well. After all, if a bunch of fanction writers can pull it off then the professional surely can.

Would you say that applies to Janeway fans too?

I think, in the future, we should refer to these hostile pro-Pocket Book posters as Militant Pocket Book Fans or MPBF. They seem to enjoy the acronym MJF, and what's good for the goose is good for the gander, I've always heard!

Yes, but, like I said, there actually aren't any comparable people, unless the Voyager forum is packed with people that never post there going over to tell them that, now that Janeway's dead, all of them should buy the Voyager novels because Janeway was OBVIOUSLY the worst thing about Voyager and now that she's dead the show can finally stop being a disappointment.

Anyone do that?

Actually there have been several discussions of the books and some folks from Trek Lit who don't normally post there have dropped by. Even Beyer has posted once or twice. I can't say it's a total love fest but wouldn't that be boring anyway? As long as people don't flame, troll, spam or steal the mod coffee supply it's all good.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Janeway died. Her death increased sales figures of VOY novels. Two sequels were commissioned on the strength of excellent sales.

AGAIN - there is no proof of a direct correlation between Janeway's death and the sales. The quality of Beyer's writing most likely has something to do with it or else Pocket would not have asked her to write a third novel.

Ian, I have to agree with kimc here. And to be honest, given that Pocket doesn't release sales figures or talk numbers in any concrete way, we can't even say with any certainty that sales did, in fact, improve for Voyager novels post-Before Dishonor. Nor can we say that even if sales did improve, that the reason for the sales improvement had anything to do with Janeway's death, when it's just as likely that the sales improvement could have been due to Pocket's halving of the line after the previous Voyager novels were published. To boil it down, Ian, I'd say that you're assuming facts not in evidence, but more to the point you may be assuming things that aren't even facts.

 

[kimc]

I didn't care for the borg story, I think at the time I was just overdone with the Borg. I didn't care for the B'elanna subplot, where she went to find her mother. I can understand why but I thought she was doing it at the wrong time. She just had a baby so she decides to spend a few months in the wilderness looking for her mother. That and Tom wasn't with her (yes I am a Tom and B'elanna fan), which seemed out of character for him.

I always thought the hologram/doctor having rights was strange. I am not even sure how I feel about it. I am still not sure how a hologram which someone can put their hands through can do complicated surgery etc.

I totally agree with all of this which is why "Homecoming" is the last Voyager book I purchased.

 

[Therin of Andor]

AGAIN - there is no proof of a direct correlation between Janeway's death and the sales. The quality of Beyer's writing most likely has something to do with it or else Pocket would not have asked her to write a third novel.

AGAIN - there is no proof of a direct correlation between Janeway's theoretical resurrection and the return of masses of Janeway fans to the regular practice of buying and reading licensed ST tie-in novels.

The quality of Beyer's writing most likely has something to do with it or else Pocket would not have asked her to write a third novel.

Quality of writing rarely guarantees a sequel. It's sales.

Several almost-universally critically-acclaimed ST novels - "The Captain's Daughter" by Peter David, "Articles of the Federation" by Keith RA DeCandido and "Ex Machina" by Christopher L Bennett - had insufficient, disappointingly low, sales figures to allow for sequels.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Besides, can't the Federation create sapient holograms on a whim now? The Doctor and Moriarty are the exceptions rather than the rule..

Don't forget DS9's Vic. He was just as alive as the Doctor, probably even moreso than Moriarty. Which is of course absurd. Under what circumstances did Vic transcend his programming into sentience? Why did he even need to? Did the customers at Quark's need the services of a 1960s Vegas lounge singer that badly?

 

[RonG]

... she was alive and well in half of the first book--and mourned all the way through the second half.

Credit Beyer for writing a good tale, of course, but don't overlook the fact that this is a Voyager story with Janeway either present in body and/or spirit. Add to that the fact that CBS/Paramount refused to let her die, and you have to expect a return sooner or later from her sojourn with the Q.

So, if you believe she's not "dead", and it's all part of a storyline, and if you freely acknowledge Janeway's "presence" in Full Circle, and its quality, what's all the fuss about? why *aren't* the MJF's supporting the storyline that would culminate in Janeway's return to TrekLit??

Can you make a *bit* of sense here??

I enjoyed "Homecoming"/'"The Farther Shore", but was really surprised that there was a Borg subplot. I disliked the holo-beings' rebellion very much; it didn't seem to be well-thought out.

I thought Golden's VOY-R novels, starting with Homecoming, were horrid. I remember snickering at the dialogue, descriptions of characters and thoughts and the overall stupidity of the plot. A Hologram rebellion?? The UFP in crisis due to people can't go out to restuarants because their holographic waiters won't serve them? EMH's working at Dilithium mines? W-T-F?!

IMO, these were written like soap opera for the mentally challanged... I mean, c'mon - these people *deserve* to be mercy-assimilated

You're making some erroneous assumptions here. First, you're assuming that those who voted not to bring her back hate her as you do. Given many of the comments in this thread though there is a legitimate concern that yet another sci fi "death and rebirth" story could not be done well.

Not everyone who voted that way *hates* Janeway, and what's wrong if someone voted because they don't want a sci-fi resurrection on our hands? how is that less valid than voting due to one's like/dislike of Janeway?

Also, by the same token - don't think that everyone who voted to bring her back (assuming they're not part of the "sudden" surges of votes that "happen" to take plece from time to time ), voted that way because of love for Janeway. Some may have voted because of their dislike of Before Dishonor, for example..

Imo, there's no reason they can't "continue the current line" yet bring back Janeway in some fashion and do it well. After all, if a bunch of fanction writers can pull it off then the professional surely can.

Sure, but why would the MJF's *care*? As we've read here, most of them won't buy a VOY novel as long as Janeway's *currently* "dead"...

I think, in the future, we should refer to these hostile pro-Pocket Book posters as Militant Pocket Book Fans or MPBF. They seem to enjoy the acronym MJF, and what's good for the goose is good for the gander, I've always heard!

um.. didn't the term "Militant Janeway Fans" originate in Brit's sig line?

 

[Therin of Andor]

To boil it down, Ian, I'd say that you're assuming facts not in evidence, but more to the point you may be assuming things that aren't even facts.

Which is why my sig mentions that my posts are entirely my opinion. Please do feel free to ignore my posts.

 

[ronny]

To boil it down, Ian, I'd say that you're assuming facts not in evidence, but more to the point you may be assuming things that aren't even facts.

Which is why my sig mentions that my posts are entirely my opinion. Please do feel free to ignore my posts.

That's about as disingenuous as it gets. Saying thing like:

Her death increased sales figures of VOY novels. Two sequels were commissioned on the strength of excellent sales.

which totally comes accross as a fact then when you're called on it, basically saying "well my sig says everything I say is my opinion so my comments don't count".

 

[Thestral]

And obviously the dead Janeway can also alter the past since the cutback in Star Trek books was two years before she was offed in Before Dishonor.

So what you're saying is... her true identity is...

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNV2EEz_DUA&NR=1[/yt]

Oh God no!

Oh is that the line that is doing so well that the editors were let go and the number of novels produced were cut back. Just how does that translate into strong sales. You don't cut back on things that are making you money.

Weren't you just telling us that ebooks were destroying the whole publishing industry? Do try to keep your story straight.

That which does not fit the narrative will be adapted to do so.

Besides, can't the Federation create sapient holograms on a whim now? The Doctor and Moriarty are the exceptions rather than the rule..

Don't forget DS9's Vic. He was just as alive as the Doctor, probably even moreso than Moriarty. Which is of course absurd. Under what circumstances did Vic transcend his programming into sentience? Why did he even need to? Did the customers at Quark's need the services of a 1960s Vegas lounge singer that badly?

There was some vague handwaving about "Felix's programming" but the origin of Vic, as I recall, was never given a whole lot of detail. He was ultimately able to control the holosuite he was based in, to the point of ending his own program and reappearing at will.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Imo, there's no reason they can't "continue the current line" yet bring back Janeway in some fashion and do it well. After all, if a bunch of fanction writers can pull it off then the professional surely can.

If fanfic writers were actually good they'd be writing professionally. Anybody can string their silly fantasies together and post them on the internet or in home-printed mimeographs as they did in the old days. Fanfic is hardly a credilbe accomplishment.

 

[pookha]

AGAIN - there is no proof of a direct correlation between Janeway's death and the sales. The quality of Beyer's writing most likely has something to do with it or else Pocket would not have asked her to write a third novel.

AGAIN - there is no proof of a direct correlation between Janeway's theoretical resurrection and the return of masses of Janeway fans to the regular practice of buying and reading licensed ST tie-in novels.

The quality of Beyer's writing most likely has something to do with it or else Pocket would not have asked her to write a third novel.

Quality of writing rarely guarantees a sequel. It's sales.

Several almost-universally critically-acclaimed ST novels - "The Captain's Daughter" by Peter David, "Articles of the Federation" by Keith RA DeCandido and "Ex Machina" by Christopher L Bennett - had insufficient, disappointingly low, sales figures to allow for sequels.

yep but if a paticular book followed up with another book by the same author saw great sales then i could see the powers that be saying hey we have a great combination going here.

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

Dayton Ward was a fanfic writer. His first published Trek story Reflections originated as a fanfic. I read it back in 94 which was like three or four years before it was published in SNW. While it's true that fanfiction isn't an accomplishment in itself it can serve as a training ground for those that choose to try the pro route.

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ Yeah, but that guy's a dick, so ignore anything he says or does. God knows I do.

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

I dunno. It's hard to ignore a dick that big.

 

[Therin of Andor]

which totally comes accross as a fact then when you're called on it, basically saying "well my sig says everything I say is my opinion so my comments don't count".

The fact is none of us know the sales figures. We can only ever offer our opinions and theories! We are all offering opinions, unless we happen to be privy to the facts, and if I had the facts I'd be footnoting them, or quoting from them, as I usually do when I have facts.

It'd be different if a Pocket author or editor was saying it. But if it's one of us, it's our opinion. That's a given, isn't it?

In my honest opinion, based on my observations and some comments by the editors, it would seem that Janeway's death increased sales figures of VOY novels. In my honest opinion, based on my observations and some comments by the editors, it would seem that two sequels were commissioned on the strength of excellent sales of "Full Circle".

Happy?

I doubt it. It's gonna get really old when I keep saying that. Last time I tried to add a sentence like that to my posts, as a running gag, I was reported to the mods and told to put it in my sig so it wouldn't look like trolling.

 

[Therin of Andor]

if a paticular book followed up with another book by the same author saw great sales then i could see the powers that be saying hey we have a great combination going here.

Of course, which is how Christie Golden initially got the VOY Relaunch, despite the DS9 Relaunch going out to a range of authors. (Dare I add that this observation is my honest opinion. You get the idea. I hope.)

But disappointing sales of Peter David's "The Captain's Daughter" delayed the chance of more "Captain Sulu and Excelsior" novels by many years. By anyone! It didn't harm PAD's chances of pitching more ST novels. Excellent sales + excellent reviews + some great free publicity seems to have equaled more VOY novels by Kirsten Beyer.

 

[JarodRussell]

Imo, there's no reason they can't "continue the current line" yet bring back Janeway in some fashion and do it well. After all, if a bunch of fanction writers can pull it off then the professional surely can.

If fanfic writers were actually good they'd be writing professionally. Anybody can string their silly fantasies together and post them on the internet or in home-printed mimeographs as they did in the old days. Fanfic is hardly a credilbe accomplishment.

So many things wrong with this statement. Just because somebody doesn't do something to receive a paycheck the quality is worse, or it is less of an accomplishment? I don't want to live in your world.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Several almost-universally critically-acclaimed ST novels - "The Captain's Daughter" by Peter David, [SNIP] - had insufficient, disappointingly low, sales figures to allow for sequels.

I've found it interesting that, when asked about The Captain's Daughter's sales, Peter David has said that the book did not sell substantially fewer copies than his other Star Trek books. Based on some of J.J. Ordover's other views, I've come to the conclusion that J.J. simply didn't want to do another Captain Sulu novel, and if that meant perpetrating a falsehood to justify his own biases he would do it.

 

[Scout101]

You're making some erroneous assumptions here. First, you're assuming that those who voted not to bring her back hate her as you do.

And this is why people are having a hard time taking your arguments seriously in this thread. You aren't listening to what people are saying, and you're putting out ridiculous strawman arguments about our motivations in order to try to dismiss us.

Never said I hated Janeway, actually said the exact opposite. Several times. Seen every episode of Voyager, own all the dvds, and every VOY book. Would be perfectly fine with more 'in-series' books featuring her. ALSO happen to be enjoying the series as-is, exploring a new dynamic with her dead.

If you aren't going to read people's posts, don't make random assumptions and go off on them. You're a mod, you should know better than that...

 

[Steve Roby]

If fanfic writers were actually good they'd be writing professionally. Anybody can string their silly fantasies together and post them on the internet or in home-printed mimeographs as they did in the old days. Fanfic is hardly a credilbe accomplishment.

There is a lot of horrible fanfic, but there's more to it than this reductionist perspective. For one thing, there are pros who enjoying writing fanfic on the side. Popular SF/fantasy novelist Steven Brust has been a pro writer for twenty or thirty years, but he wrote a Firefly novel because he loves the show and no one's publishing Firefly novels. If I'm not mistaken, Trek novelist Una McCormack is still active in some fanfic communities.

I haven't made any effort to keep up with Internet-age fanfic; there's way too much of it. But in the '80s, there were fanzine publishers and writers who could be relied on to deliver really good Trek fiction. It just wasn't necessarily the kind of Trek fiction Pocket wanted to publish, or in some cases could publish.

That said, though, going on about how much better written Voyager fanfic is than profic and "proving" it by linking to something that's ineptly written is an unwise move.