Thank you so much for proving my point for me...
TATV was no more, no less than B&B's apology to the old school Trek fans who hated Enterprise.
Which series had the best finale episode?
- Thread starter StardustSteph
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TATV was no more, no less than B&B's apology to the old school Trek fans who hated Enterprise.
By "old school" you, of course, mean TNG fans?Thank you so much for proving my point for me...
TATV was no more, no less than B&B's apology to the old school Trek fans who hated Enterprise.
Because the entire episode was about TNG, while slapping ENT in the face and completely ignoring other shows, apart from a tiny little nod to TOS at the very end.
Yes, but only those who hated ENT, and from my experience, there are legions of them. Being primarily a TNG fan myself, I'm aware that any attempt of generalizing is wrong.By "old school" you, of course, mean TNG fans?Thank you so much for proving my point for me...
TATV was no more, no less than B&B's apology to the old school Trek fans who hated Enterprise.
Oh but it desecrated TNG too, by raping the sh#t out of "The Pegasus..."
How was Depeche Mode, BTW?
Just finished watching "What You Leave Behind" for only the second time ever. The montage at the end still brings tears to my eyes. The second viewing was helped greatly by skipping all the Dukat scenes. The episode didn't have as much moving sentimentality and imaginative storytelling as the TNG finale, but I think I might consider it equal to that one or even superior if not for those Dukat scenes.
Cutting from Vic finishing off his song to the fire cave stuff was one of the worst decisions ever. The montage, Odo and O'Brien's goodbyes, and the shot with Jake and Kira (even without Sisko leaving, it still would have been a powerful shot) were all lovely, but there's a big load dumped between them in the fire cave stuff.
Without it, the episode would have been perfect. Sisko leaving the party to have a hamfest with Dukat surrounded by lame special effects was a travesty. The Dominion War stuff was exhilarating drama and action, and having just watched "All Good Things..." again, I appreciate that this episode was refreshingly lighter on technobabble. If only "Sacrifice of Angels" had been the last appearance of Dukat. He and Winn were truly an albatross on season seven and the one massive flaw in an otherwise awesome finale.
Cutting from Vic finishing off his song to the fire cave stuff was one of the worst decisions ever. The montage, Odo and O'Brien's goodbyes, and the shot with Jake and Kira (even without Sisko leaving, it still would have been a powerful shot) were all lovely, but there's a big load dumped between them in the fire cave stuff.
Without it, the episode would have been perfect. Sisko leaving the party to have a hamfest with Dukat surrounded by lame special effects was a travesty. The Dominion War stuff was exhilarating drama and action, and having just watched "All Good Things..." again, I appreciate that this episode was refreshingly lighter on technobabble. If only "Sacrifice of Angels" had been the last appearance of Dukat. He and Winn were truly an albatross on season seven and the one massive flaw in an otherwise awesome finale.
Except for "These Are the Voyages". You're all the less likely to find something you like there if you have actually gotten attached to the crew of ENT.
haha...yep. And that's exactly why I liked it.
After reading this thread I decided to watch TATV for the first time because everyone seems to despise it. I followed all the series pretty closely -- except ENT, which I watched only a handful of times.
For the finales, I'd rank them:
TNG - Just a classic science fiction story for an iconic crew. The Q Judgment narrative nicely bookends the entire series and the last scene is one of the best and most memorable in Trek history.
DS9 - excellent, but different; much like the show itself, WYLB just marches to its own beat. Not as memorable as TNG's and not as Roddenbery-ish, but they wrapped everything up and finished a solid series on a strong note.
ENT - wow. I can really see why ENT fans would be upset with this one. I never realized it was like that. But because I never watched ENT, I actually enjoyed it. I liked the Andorian character, TPol, the decision to sacrifice a main crew member, the Treaty Assembly scene, and the gravity of the situation they were in -- the founding of the Federation. It was important to the broader story of Trek...we got to see (the setting at least) to a crucial piece of the puzzle...and they made it look good. Also, the ship montage/voice-overs at the end was just outstanding.
VOY -just a lot of missed opportunities. I wanted to like it, I really did. It wasn't terrible or anything....it just seemed like they could have gone several different routes and given us all a more meaningful voyage home. However, at least they got the chance to end it on their own terms.....
which brings us back to TATV -- despite the fact that I enjoyed TATV, it's very easy to see why ENT fans would loathe it. Other than liking a few ENT crew moments, it seemed like a cozy TNG episode I'd never seen before -- one where you knew that all your familiar characters would be okay (save the Data line....) and that only asked for you to forgive the noticeable age discrepancies.
But as a Trek fan who never got into ENT, TATV just made ENT seem more connected to the rest of the franchise for the first time. ENT never really seemed to belong with the other series, but TATV achieved this by weaving its story into the fabric of the franchise and driving home the fact that its officially part of the story of Trek. I'm sure TATV will always be reviled by many, but they could have done a lot worse....it at least was a memorable episode, for better or worse.
then again, Im a TNG fan so....
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When I saw the party scene and noticed how much time there was left I got a sinking feeling. The showdown with Dukat felt tacked-on and anti-climactic to me. The stuff after that wasn't bad, but I'm very glad I saw this as one episode rather than split into two so that the momentum from the first half could carry me through to the end.
S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
I'm going to give the nod to All Good Things, over What You Leave Behind, even though on the whole i thought DS9 was a better show.
The individual characters got really nice send-offs in WYLB. The whole mystical pah wraiths garbage and the way it unfolded really dragged the whole thing down.
The individual characters got really nice send-offs in WYLB. The whole mystical pah wraiths garbage and the way it unfolded really dragged the whole thing down.
Holy cow, exhibit number 2! I'm on a roll here!Except for "These Are the Voyages". You're all the less likely to find something you like there if you have actually gotten attached to the crew of ENT.
haha...yep. And that's exactly why I liked it.
A series finale for the haters of the series? Great idea.Except for "These Are the Voyages". You're all the less likely to find something you like there if you have actually gotten attached to the crew of ENT.
haha...yep. And that's exactly why I liked it.
After reading this thread I decided to watch TATV for the first time because everyone seems to despise it. I followed all the series pretty closely -- except ENT, which I watched only a handful of times.
(...)
ENT - wow. I can really see why ENT fans would be upset with this one. I never realized it was like that. But because I never watched ENT, I actually enjoyed it. I liked the Andorian character, TPol, the decision to sacrifice a main crew member, the Treaty Assembly scene, and the gravity of the situation they were in -- the founding of the Federation. It was important to the broader story of Trek...we got to see (the setting at least) to a crucial piece of the puzzle...and they made it look good. Also, the ship montage/voice-overs at the end was just outstanding.
(...)
which brings us back to TATV -- despite the fact that I enjoyed TATV, it's very easy to see why ENT fans would loathe it. Other than liking a few ENT crew moments, it seemed like a cozy TNG episode I'd never seen before -- one where you knew that all your familiar characters would be okay (save the Data line....) and that only asked for you to forgive the noticeable age discrepancies.
But as a Trek fan who never got into ENT, TATV just made ENT seem more connected to the rest of the franchise for the first time. ENT never really seemed to belong with the other series, but TATV achieved this by weaving its story into the fabric of the franchise and driving home the fact that its officially part of the story of Trek. I'm sure TATV will always be reviled by many, but they could have done a lot worse....it at least was a memorable episode, for better or worse.
then again, Im a TNG fan so....
Every Trek show is different - that's the point, they're not supposed to be identical clones. ENT belongs with the others as much as any of the others belongs with the rest of them. And it was already connected to all the others in every possible way apart from actually having the characters from TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY in it. (Which would have looked very gimmicky and would have involved some far-fetched scenarios.). In season 4, they managed to include references to everything from the Augments, Orion slave girls, Data, to Section 31. One hardly needed to see TNG characters in a holodeck programme about the ENT crew to "weave it into a story" or "driving home the fact that is a part of Trek".
I'd think that having a ship named Enterprise, Vulcans, Klingons, Andorians, Borg, Augments, a bunch of references to other Trek shows etc. would have been enough of a hint. 
There are so many issues with that episode that I can't even begin to list them all - for starters, making the finale of ENT a TNG episode was stupid in many ways, besides being insulting to the show; did B&B really think that everyone who watched ENT was above all a TNG fan? Maybe there were people who didn't like, or never saw TNG, or who even started watching Trek with ENT? And even for those who did watch TNG before and were familiar with the TNG characters, like me, it felt so out of place. Why am I watching long scenes of Riker and Troi discuss things related to TNG season 7 plots? If I want that, I'll watch TNG. And to make it even worse - even as a TNG episode, it didn't work at all - and not just because Frakes and Sirtis were older and looked different. Watch "The Pegasus" - TATV doesn't fit in it at all. It certainly didn't seem that Riker was in the mood for holodeck, or that he arrived to any kind of decision after a holodeck programme and a chat with Deanna.
As for killing a popular main cast member, it's not like it was a gutsy move. It's a gutsy move when it is done in the middle of the show. When it's done in the finale, it is not. But the important thing is, was it well done? Hell no. Not just because it was so random, but because it really made no sense. It just made one think "Why is Trip being so stupid? Why is everyone being so stupid?"
And the gravity of the situation? They were saving Shran's daughter from some random aliens we'd never seen before. And it had nothing to do with the foundation of the Federation, which was happening one way or another.
The worst of it all is, however, was the way it presented the ENT characters. It was set 6 years after the events of ENT season 4, and yet none of the characters seemed to have progressed in any way - some had even stagnated. Are we really to believe that none of them even got a promotion in all that time? And poor T'Pol, her entire storyarc that had been about opening up, getting in touch and dealing with her emotional side, finding out what it meant to be a Vulcan, finding her place, ends nowhere - apparently it stopped with "Demons" and she somehow regressed to what she was like in late season 1, and stopped changing from that point on, for no apparent reason. It is also implied that her relationship with Trip ended 6 years ago, so we're supposed to think that the ending scene of "Demons" was the end? To anyone apart from Berman and Braga, it looked like that's where they were finally reconnecting and expressing hope for a new beginning after what they'd been through. In short - it seemed like Berman and Braga didn't understand the concept of character development, maybe didn't even watch the last season or tried their best to undo the development the characters had had, and overall as if they didn't even care about those characters in the first place.
There are other issues with the episode as well - not only was it a horrible finale, it was a bad episode in itself (an awful episode of ENT and a lame episode of TNG). TheGodBen's review sums it up pretty well:
http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3777372&postcount=929
Oh yes, even as a TNG episode is fails. But what I meant was, it was not a 'valentine' to all Trek fans, it was not an homage to all of Star Trek - it was exclusively an homage to TNG. Let me quote TheGodBen:Yes, but only those who hated ENT, and from my experience, there are legions of them. Being primarily a TNG fan myself, I'm aware that any attempt of generalizing is wrong.By "old school" you, of course, mean TNG fans?Thank you so much for proving my point for me...
TATV was no more, no less than B&B's apology to the old school Trek fans who hated Enterprise.
Oh but it desecrated TNG too, by raping the sh#t out of "The Pegasus..."
The concert was great.[How was Depeche Mode, BTW?
I just hoped it would last longer. It was something under 2 hours, one encore. I guess I have been spoiled by some of the extra-long concerts with several encores (like Leonard Cohen's last year's concert), and I was hoping for the second encore. I think everyone was, but then the lights were turned on and we knew it was not to be. 
But it was a great little trip, overall - even though the "afterparty" I went to turned out to be not much of an afterparty - they just played techno, with just one DM remix!
But I met a bunch of great people and talked and had fun until the morning when my bus was scheduled. I had a great time, apart from not having slept for a day and a half. 
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