That's why. The question is who should have left at the end of season 4, under the assumption that someone supposedly had to go to make room for Seven. Why would you need a character on the show that does nothing for it?
Who Should Have Left in Season Four?
- Thread starter Michael
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I just think the series would stood a chance of improving if Janeway left. Harry could have actually done something if Janeway left, for one thing, he would half to deal with the Captain being a maquis officer, that would at least given the character a better chance to grow.
That would've worked if the show had ever paid any attention to Chakotay being a Maquis. But that stopped having any importance as soon as season 1. I don't know what the point was of having a Maquis first officer, when he acted like just another Starfleet officer and never stood up to Janeway. In Equinox, when he stands up to her for a moment, while she is acting insane and really crossing the line, but then he caves in, and in the end says that it would have been "crossing the line" if he had mutineed against her. Hello! This guy was a Maquis, he had been an outlaw because he stood up and fought for what he thought was right!
Which is why Chakotay could have left as well... he had very little to do on the show, especially after Seska was gone.
Yeah it is a shame that the crew interegrated so quickly after the first season. Personally I think the only time the Maquis came close to being handled right was on DS9 with Eddington. Back to Voyager though, Janeway's death would have forced the issue of the Maquis as Tuvok, Tom, and possible Harry (if they wanted to actually develop his character) would probably take issue with Chakotay being in command. Plus Chakotay would actually half to be a leader, which I think would have been interesting for his character after having followed Janeway's orders for so long.That would've worked if the show had ever paid any attention to Chakotay being a Maquis. But that stopped having any importance as soon as season 1. I don't know what the point was of having a Maquis first officer, when he acted like just another Starfleet officer and never stood up to Janeway. In Equinox, when he stands up to her for a moment, while she is acting insane and really crossing the line, but then he caves in, and in the end says that it would have been "crossing the line" if he had mutineed against her. Hello! This guy was a Maquis, he had been an outlaw because he stood up and fought for what he thought was right!
Which is why Chakotay could have left as well... he had very little to do on the show, especially after Seska was gone.
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Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going.Quite. They did that a lot on Voyager, methinks. They never really lived up to the promise of what was set up in the series' premise. Which – especially in this case – was a shame; despite the aversion some people feel towards Robert Beltran, I rather liked the guy and his portrayal of Chakotay. It's just that he could have been so much more.
You know, I really like that idea.
I do, however, think that the Maquis were a missed opportunity in terms of how they could use them to create good drama. I know you think there wasn't really enough reason to have the Maquis and the Starfleet officers be antagonistic. But whenever I hear that, I just think the writers should have created more reasons. It's not like it's out of their hands. Voyager's premise was brilliant; maybe the best of all the Star Trek series. But the writers never really did anything with it.
^ I agree with pretty much everything you've said here, NCC-1701 - about Chakotay and the way the Voyager PTB cleaned up its fascinating central premise of antagonists who reconcile way too easily. I like Anwar's idea about Romulans a lot (you can't have too many Romulans, I always say)...but I do agree that the Maquis angle might have worked really well, too. Given a chance. Which it wasn't.
And I garentee within six months the romulans would have been Janeway's lap dogs. The Maquis was a good idea, but Voyager had to mess up what the writers of TNG and DS9 and spent a great deal of time putting together so that it would be a point of conflict in Voyager. Janeway seriously should have been the one to go.
Not really, the Maquis were never established to the point they'd really be the source of conflict the show promised. Their main reasoning for fighting the Feds wasn't around anymore, and they had little differences with them aside from that.
Romulans, however, had for MORE differences with the Feds and were actual enemies. Much better for a source of conflict.
Romulans, however, had for MORE differences with the Feds and were actual enemies. Much better for a source of conflict.
I respectfully disagree. Ensign Ro's arc as well as DS9 episode 'The Maquis' established The Maquis as good source of conflict for Voyager. The Maquis if the had been done correctly on Voyager would have had different values from the Federation crew. While the Federation crew would want to uphold Federation rules and regulations, the Maquis IMO would want to come up with a solution that would be more about saving lives and doing what the feel is the right thing to do, reguadless of how the Federation would handle the situation. Ro Lauren is a great example of this as she cared more about helping people such as the Maquis rather then upholding the prime directive or whatever way the Federation dictates a situation should be handled. Ro constantly found herself at odds with the crew of the Enterprise.
Romulans in comparison to the Maquis, IMO were quite boring and only became interesting when there home planet was blown up and Nero went back in time, and inacted his revenge on an alternate timeline.
And to tie this back to Voyager, if Janeway had been the one to go in season 4, the conflicts between the Federation and the Maquis established in TNG and DS9 would have had to come to the forefront. The show would have taken a completely different turn if Chakotay the Maquis leader was in charge. And Chakotay surely would have grown as he would have had to deal with conflicting view point of both the Maquis and Federation, instead of just going with what Janeway wanted to do.
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By Season four, the crew would have already learned to get along and work together even if they had been at each others' throats since S1. So still no real conflict.
And no, the "Maquis Way" was never defined well enough before VOY aside from "Fight Cardassians". We were never shown, aside from the DMZ/Cardassian thing just how they differed from the Feds ideologically or politically (or if they did at all). Hell Chakotay would've been one of the first ones to acknowledge that they work together, he was a former Fleeter himself. And he wasn't even a traitor like Eddington, he formally resigned and THEN joined the Maquis.
And no, the "Maquis Way" was never defined well enough before VOY aside from "Fight Cardassians". We were never shown, aside from the DMZ/Cardassian thing just how they differed from the Feds ideologically or politically (or if they did at all). Hell Chakotay would've been one of the first ones to acknowledge that they work together, he was a former Fleeter himself. And he wasn't even a traitor like Eddington, he formally resigned and THEN joined the Maquis.
She can't go because she's the only one with access to the "lapdog button" on the bridge.
BTW, I own two toy dogs. Lapdogs rule!!
The Federation & the Maquis were never enemies, many of the Starfleet Officers like O'Brian sympathized with them.
The Maquis were enemies of Cardassia because the Cardassian Central Government was suppling their people with weapons to terrorize the ex-Federation colonists in the Demiliterized Zone. The Maquis had given up their citizenship to the Federation when they choose to stay in the DMT. That doesn't mean they also gave up their Federation values and ethics but they had no where to turn, so they fought back on their own. They blew up a Cardassian ship leaving DS9.
The Federation was asked to come in and keep the Maquis under control or the Cardassians govenrment would, we all know that isn't a good thing.
So the Federation stepped in to try and make peace with the Maquis because their actions were threatening the DMZ treaty. However, it was discovered that was a lie because the Federation discovered that it was the Cardassians that started the conflict in the first place.
They discovered the Lecepianes were being paid by the Central Gov. to smuggle in weapons to the Cardasians in the DMZ. So Cardassia broke the treaty, not the Maquis.However, it still didn't help the Maquis because they were still being terrorized by the Cardassians. While no longer being Fed. citizens, they couldn't ask them for help still. So they were still back where they started.
Federation/Starfleet doesn't like Maquis like Chakotay, Tom Paris, Be'lanna Torres, Cal Hudson & Michael Eddington. Not because they were Maquis but because they went AWOL and gave up their military alligence with Starfleet. That's the only reason there would be conflict on Voyager. However, when Chakotay agreed the follow Janerway in the first ep., all that conflict went out the window.
They sure could have fooled me on DS9, particularly in "For the Cause" and "For the Uniform"!
I think that they were a lot of sympathy for the Maquis in the Federation, even among the high officials.
Everybody knew that the sell-out treaty with the Cardassians did stink but they saw it as necessary to try to keep the peace, everybody knew how the Cardassians tried to intimidate and scare away the Federation citizens with all possible means and everybody knew that Cardassia was a military dictatorship and imperialist power which would be very difficult to keep peace with.
I guess that many in high officials and among the population in common did sympathise with the Maquis but their hands were tied because of the treaty with the Cardassians. That was also the reason why most of the Maquis, like Chakotay, Ro Laren and many others were paroled by Starfleet after the Dominion War and its aftermath and were allowed to continue their careers and lives in the Federation.
Everybody knew that the sell-out treaty with the Cardassians did stink but they saw it as necessary to try to keep the peace, everybody knew how the Cardassians tried to intimidate and scare away the Federation citizens with all possible means and everybody knew that Cardassia was a military dictatorship and imperialist power which would be very difficult to keep peace with.
I guess that many in high officials and among the population in common did sympathise with the Maquis but their hands were tied because of the treaty with the Cardassians. That was also the reason why most of the Maquis, like Chakotay, Ro Laren and many others were paroled by Starfleet after the Dominion War and its aftermath and were allowed to continue their careers and lives in the Federation.
That's because when Eddington took over, he figured the best way to get the Maquis motivated further would be to make the Feds their targets since the Cardassians weren't a threat anymore. It was all an ego trip for him that backfired badly. Before that, the Feds WEREN'T the Maquis' enemies.
Those are all reasons why the Maquis on Voyager wouldn't slit the Starfleet officers' throats or vice versa (vaporated, strangled, etc.), but they're not reasons why the Maquis and the Starfleeters would be best friends from the word go and agree on everything, apart from being annoyed by Tuvok's grilling for an entire episode... and sure as hell aren't reasons why a former Maquis leader like Chakotay, who had even resigned his Starfleet post and joined terrorists/outlaws to fight for something he thought was right, should be acting like a rule-abiding Starfleet officer who says he couldn't mutiny against the captain even though she was doing what she believed was deeply wrong - because a mutiny would "crossing the line"! 
Actually, the fact that Chakotay did officially resign his commission before joining the Maquis DOES support him not being all that rebellious against Janeway. That he didn't defect while still in Starfleet like Cal or Eddington did shows he's not a traitor, and thus more inclined to obey the same rules he once followed before when he rejoined.
Now, if he HAD been a traitor who defected, or someone who was never Fleet to begin with, then it's a different story.
Now, if he HAD been a traitor who defected, or someone who was never Fleet to begin with, then it's a different story.
I am beginning to wonder why the hell Chakotay went over to the Maquis to begin with. The whole reason for him leaving starfleet in the first place would be becuase he would have had a problem with Starfleets policy of non interference while they were at constant war with the Cardassians. Reguardless the Maquis angle with Chakotay was severly under used, and if Janeway had been the one to go in season 4 there is a possibilty that it would have become an issue and finally the Maquis storyline on Voyager would have gotten the attention it deserved, especially considering the Maquis were established in TNG and DS9 for Voyager.
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