Any OZ fans here?

There will be something about the guy and his reason, but I didn't feel better after seeing the "explanation" at all, it wasn't that good :/

Good luck then! XD Yeah, that actually meant a lot, coming from Keller! If only Beecher had been paroled then...... we wouldn't have the interesting scenes with him! I wonder what Vern and Chris would've done without him the whole time.... play chess and pool?

I don't think Toby would've wanted to kill someone else just to hurt Vern, anyway. He probably learned that lesson with poor Andy, I mean it's not like it's the victim's fault that Vern's an ass xD
With Vern, I felt more like he was thinking "Fuck him and forget about it", but I could imagine him casually ordering someone to kill him (like with Robson and Zabitz (?) )
Devlin would've had the most likely motivation IMO, his career and standing was at stake.
I forgot that the doer belonged to Vern's guys! Hmmh... could mean nothing though? (Didn't Devlin say something to a guy?)

Yeah, that's horrible sometimes. I remember how a CO warned Diane that McManus knew about Scott Ross... they sure kept ganging up on inmates sometimes.

Yeah, Toby is probably the best (and only?) example where she had success, though I think it had a lot to do with him being "good" by nature.
The image of Peter throwing something around in her office is really strange to me, he seems so calm in the scenes that weren't deleted he even thanked her for trying to help!
I do think Sister Pete and Gloria were great influences but someone listed the ones Pete had success with and AFAIR the list was very short XD If everything had gone after their opinions + Mukada's + McManus's, Oz would've really been a better place, I think.

Well, I felt bad for him during the riot, but it would've been really strange if Miguel had stood up for him, they were having a riot after all. He did say the only reason he wouldn't hurt Mukada is because he was there for him just before. I realized that Diane was unharmed because the Muslims watched her though, that was great! (they beat the inmates who tried to attack her)
I'm not sure about the sandwich, wasn't it because Miguel's medication had been taken away from him or some other reason that he flipped? He was definitely different during Mukada's meeting before that, going for the oblates and all XD In his "normal" state he would've taken it and been grateful, I think.
He's got his crazy moments, and blinding Rivera was definitely one, too. I think he was even more afraid himself when he held Mukada hostage. I loved how Mukada sticked up for him though and didn't want the staff to hurt him even after he had taken him hostage (no such luck, of course)! I thought he went to Mukada because it was the only place he could think of... if he were thinking clearly, he should've tried to get rid of the weapon first.

Nay to crazy beards! I like him best with really short hair!

Hmh.... pretty?


We talked about male gazes in the show, but I found it funny how in one scene I just rewatched (season 5, episode 7) with Sister Pete and Peter (...Pete & Peter! ) there seemed to be a female gaze (if you can call it that? Or maybe "fanservice"?) . They kept shooting Sister Pete from the front, but Peter's profile with shining light on him, the viewer really got drawn to his eyes and eyelashes IMO I can't remember any other scene where they did that with an inmate.

Pancamo suspected Toby was only setting him up, so Toby said he'd kill Vern and they shook hands on that (Pancamo also demanded 2000 $). But maybe he never had to fulfill it because 1) he wanted to call it off and 2) it was probably obvious Toby hated Vern and wasn't making a trap for Chucky.

I always wonder what the actors talk about when they have to pretend, being in the background

Beecher was SO crazy and funny! And he really kept his word (Ryan suggested they watch each other's back), I loved that he pulled off a Homeboy who attacked Ryan.
I can't help but feel sorry for Vern there, he really seemed peaceful for once. Of course he only acted like that like we found out later though, actually wanting to kill Toby...

I realized that Dean Winters was written out of SVU midway through season 1! I wonder if it was because of Oz... must've been a tight schedule for Meloni!

 

I'm most of the way through season 4 now, which should be called "shit everyone is stealing our actors". I can't read the thread though because I don't want to get spoiled on stuff. So far a good show, although I'm glad I read somewhere someone suggesting that it drifts almost in-to the realm of sci-fi. I may have been more annoyed when some of the more unrealistic story elements were introduced. It's pretty crazy to see all these familiar actors showing up on the show. It's like looking through a co-workers year book and and finding out all your freinds went to the same high school or something. Familiar faces together in an unfamiliar setting.

I enjoy the Beecher vs. Shillinger story line the most so far. The back and forth of who's on the attack and who's been on the defense has been fun. I also like that the religious characters aren't all just assholes. I suppose a product of the time when it was made because I can't imagine the same characters being written on a show today. Sayid I thought was going to be a shallow villain character and a caricature of a radical black muslim, but they've written him with surprising depth. Same with BD wongs character and even Luke Perry's character. Adebisi was a character I didn't think I was going to be any good, but I ended up liking him.

Some of the things that bother me is that fact that the characters exist too much to serve the plot. They seem to go through huge changes based on what the story needs wether it makes sense or not. The one story that bothers me the most is probably the Dr. and O'Reily. The Dr. may be the most short changed character on the show. I mean, she get's raped, her husband murdered, and she still has to be around to entertain O'Reily's fantasy? In fact none of the female characters seem to be written fairly.

If I could describe this show, I'd say it was a soap opera in a male prison. About the same level of reality and melodrama. Still entertaining to watch though.

 

Ugh, I have a feeling that's going to piss me off. I'll probably watch a few episodes tonight--was hoping to get to one last night but it did not work out.

You know, I really wonder, because each in his own way is as obsessed with Beecher as the other is. Schillinger is fixated on dominating Beecher--he clearly sees Beecher as a real challenge, but honestly, if he really, really wanted Beecher dead, I think he would have killed him by now, or at least made a sincere effort. I mean, asking Whittlesey to do it? Stabbing Beecher in the side? Those were pretty half-hearted efforts at best. And if Winthrop could so easily kill Beecher's dad, why not have him kill Beecher. Schillinger liked having a plaything, IMO, though his fixation on Beecher cost him as much as it cost Beecher.

And Keller... man, I don't know. I wonder if Beecher had gotten paroled in season four, if Keller really could have let him go. I can see Keller breaking out of jail to get to Beecher before I can see him just letting Beecher go. Beecher is all Keller really has.

Agreed, and I think Toby's response that saving the mayor's life was just his first instinct says everything about Toby's character. He's a good person. He made some mistakes, but he's a good guy at heart.

Yeah, I could see that one going either way. But Vern looked really shaken when he came out of the hospital room, like he was genuinely upset.

Agreed, and my money is on Devlin.

Devlin talked to an aide, not a prisoner. Presumably his aide would have gone to a prisoner and arranged it.

Agreed. What Toby needed to work through was the abuse he endured. He didn't have any dark or evil tendencies. When he did act out, it was in defense or because he'd been wronged, rather than from any dark impulses he had.

Yeah, I think they were trying to get across Peter's anger over the rape (I think it was rapes plural at that point) and being dethroned as the head of the Sicilians. It's another scene that should have been kept IMO.

Yeah, I'm so glad Fontana didn't go the route of having her get raped.

I just feel like Alvarez was ungrateful and self-pitying through much of the early seasons. He's more tolerable now, but I'm not sure I'll ever really like him that much.

They definitely emphasized the beauty of some of the men in the prison, that's for sure. I feel like they did that with Beecher, and certainly with Keller, though in a different way. There were long, lingering shots on Keller's very masculine beauty, meant to emphasize his prowess and power. They did the same with Adebisi at times, too. With Beecher, it was always Keller's gaze on him--it was like we were seeing him through Keller's eyes.

Yeah, no kidding!! If there's one thing everyone should be aware of, it's Beecher's hatred of Schillinger.

They actually can't really talk, or else they'll drown out the foreground actors! So they have to pretend to talk.

Yeah, that was sweet. Again, crazy as he was acting, Beecher was very aware of what was going on.

It was just for his parole, though. I'm not sure he would have participated in the riot--maybe?--but I'm sure he would have used the opportunity of the chaos to rape Beecher again or something like that if he hadn't been trying to get parole.

No kidding! I'm glad Meloni fit Oz in, though. It would have SUCKED to lose Keller before the show ended.

****
Everything below this point is safe for Capt. Vulcan to read, if you want to!!
****

Yeah, I'm into season six, so that's probably for the best. But I'm glad you stopped by to share your thoughts!

Totally, and it's kind of fun. There are so many actors I recognize!

Yeah, I love that relationship!! Their back and forth is definitely one of my favorite storylines.

I like that, too. For all the outlandishness, Oz really does a good job of showing shades of grey. There are a lot of characters who are morally ambiguous, rather than just bad or evil.

Yeah, there are moments that do bug me that are like that. The plots can go out there... and I don't buy that the characters would do certain things that they do to serve them. I don't know.

I'm not sure I'd go that far. I like that most the female characters aren't portrayed as victims. And I actually really like the doctor. I think she believes in what she does, and isn't willing to give that up because bad things have happened to her.

Agree completely.

 

First, a "spoilerfree" (up to season 4 answer) here:

I didn't feel that way during season 4 AFAIR, but you're right, from then on a lot of actors were written out!
I do agree with the supernatural / sci-fi part, didn't like those storylines.
It's crazy how many actors from Oz you'll find somewhere else (or vice-versa)! I watched a Law & Order SVU today where besides Keller and Ryan there were 2 guest stars from Oz (the mother of Kathy Rockbell and Chico Guerra!)

That one is the most interesting IMO, too.
Actually, I think the religious characters come off well in the series. Sister Pete, Said and Mukada are very pleasant and genuinely good people who want to help and have many admirers. I wasn't sure about Said at first, but I really began to like him.

I totally agree with that, I hated some storylines where characters were suddenly completely out of character or had connections/opinions they hadn't before / or connections with other people were never mentioned again (like the Ryan / Toby friendship or later on Mukada / Alvarez)

Well, I can see why people dislike the Ryan / Gloria story, similar to Keller / Beecher it's a very "sick" relationship!

I somewhere read "It's highschool with shanks"... and it really is



Now with spoilers

---

No, I'm pretty sure Vern *really* wanted Beecher dead every time he said it and only failed because Toby's a main character and it would've been a stupid move for the story!
First, if someone had taken on his offer to kill Beecher, he'd already be dead. But nobody dared to and he couldn'T because of his parole! Vern didn't show one bit of remorse when he thought Diane had done it, only laughing and saying sure, he wanted to see the corpse.
With the shanks, I found it funny how they *always* seem to stab each other in the sides only (Beecher, Keller, Vern, Pancamo... all victims of side-shanks!). I think one of the only main charas who got actually stabbed almost fatally was Miguel.

I think Keller would've let him go in season 4, with a heavy heart but still. But that was his limit, I think after that he was already too co-dependant with him!

Yes, saving him only proved once more that he was unlikely the one to order it (also, he's probably the one with the fewest hitman-connections... he only asked Chucky once and we know how that went wrong).

Yes, but boy.. could he go to the extremes! Great to watch XD

It must really suck to be him. Not one good thing has happened to him in Oz! I'm only reading about these scenes and they all sound so great. There was one where Ryan thanked somebody (I don't even know whom) for setting up a certain demonstration you'll see in the next eps and I just don't know why they left scenes like that out, they sound awesome. (Peter and Toby interacting, the cute B / K kiss on the neck, Ryan actually thanking somebody...)

Right, I wouldn't have wanted to see that =/

You have a point, it's always a matter of taste I sometimes read people fawning over Ryan (mostly) and Toby and can't understand that either, because despite liking them I couldn't admire them 24/7 , but on the other hand I can't understand the immense hatred from some viewers for somebody, either (well maybe except for characters who are there to hate, like Howell, Devlin or Kirk I guess ) The good thing in Oz is like you said the greyzone, no one's perfect!

Oh, how could I forget about Keller. They definitely did that with him sometimes, the emphasis on his predator look etc. I had to think of the first scene you see him (the crime flashback), it zooms in on his face with his piercing eyes, the last scene with him is similar, too! With Beecher, I didn't notice that much.
And I don't remember that with Adebisi, either! But I can think of some instances with Ryan and Miguel.

And his love drama with Keller

Oh, good point! But sometimes they stand far away! Hmmh...

Yeah, that definitely toned it down...
another one of my fave crazy!Beecher-riot-moments :

He's like... a ninja turtle on a rock concert or something!

Yeah, Keller was almost written out with his transfer, but because Meloni missed Oz, he came back!

 

So I finally got to see the fourth and fifth episodes of season six last night! The fourth one actually wasn't quite as depressing as the others have been--Beecher is happy working pro bono cases! Keller gets off of death row, and kills that punk Winthrop for killing Beecher's dad--but the fifth once again ended on a down note... Keller fucked up Beecher's parole and now Beecher is back in Oz. WTF???

First of all, why was Beecher dumb enough to go along with Keller's request? He should have known better. Through that whole conversation, I could tell that Keller was not okay with Beecher seeing Holly's teacher--this is the guy who was so insanely jealous that he killed everyone else Beecher slept with in Oz. Yeah, right, Beecher--you really think Keller is going to be okay with that? I did feel bad for Keller when he told Beecher he wanted to meet his kids... I think it was obvious when he brought that up that he still thinks of Beecher as his lover and still feels they have a romantic relationship. I'm not sure Beecher does, since he's seeing someone else. Random aside--there really is something about Beecher... he gets a lot of people of both sexes who want in his pants. First Katherine McClain dates him while he's in jail, and now Holly's teacher is dating him. Anyway...

I felt really bad for Beecher in the end when he told Sister Pete and McManus, "Same old story... I got fucked in the ass." You could tell how disappointed they were to see him back. Violating parole means he has to serve out the rest of his sentence, right? So like 9 or 10 more years? Stupid, Beecher, really stupid. Keller will be happy, of course, and now he'll get to play his favorite game--winning Beecher back.

I am royally pissed about the lameness and randomness of Said's death. WTF, the killer is a crazy guy who somehow got a gun through the metal detector, past a guard, all the while posing as a news reporter (but no one presumably checked his credentials)? What the hell? I hate that they killed Said off in the last damn season, but I think I could live with it if made some sort of storytelling sense. I mean, if one of the Aryans had done it, if there had been some sort of showdown between Vern and Said, that would have at least thematically been great. I still miss Adebisi and was so sad when he died, but that was an epically brilliant death.

I was happy that Robson got revenge on Cutler--that guy was just twisted. Very clever of him setting up the suicidal angle with Sister Pete before he did Cutler in. I guess he's back in the brotherhood now, gums or no gums?

Nice to see that Augustus's book got published--funny how the Oz logo in on the front. I looked it up on Amazon.com and I guess the show did do a tie-in book.

Cool to see both Nappa and Schillinger's sons back! I really liked the guy who played Andy, and Hank is kind of hot. Nappa has the coolest voice.

I finally saw the hospital scene with the "real" Cyril! That was kind of cool. It shows you how much range the actor playing him really has, because he's just totally different from the Cyril we see on a regular basis.

I'm wondering if Ryan is going to kill this Black Panther guy who used to be involved with his mother. It is his MO after all...

Only three more to go! I'm hoping to finish this weekend. I'm going to be so sad when it's all over, though!

Yeah, I think he believed he wanted Toby dead, but did he really think a CO would do it? And if he did, why not go to one of the many Aryan COs instead of Diane? I know he thought he had something on Diane, but I can't believe he trusted her more than someone like Metzger or Lopreste. Why not just kill Beecher in the gym when he was at Keller and his mercy? I thinK Vern hated him, but I think Beecher also gave him a purpose. Dominating Beecher, hurting Beecher--Schillinger seemed to get off on that more than anything. If he killed Beecher, it would be over--he wouldn't be able to do any of that anymore.

Maybe that was the easiest place to stab someone with a shank? I don't know. They are all pretty bad shankers, unless of course, the victim was a minor character.

Possibly, although now seeing how Keller fucked up his parole in season six, I'm not totally sure. I don't know if Keller is capable of letting Beecher go, which is why I now am worried season six is going to end with some sort of twisted murder/suicide where Keller kills Beecher and then himself rather than let Beecher leave him.

With Keller, it is predatory... it's like he's this wild jungle cat and the camera just lingers on him. With Beecher, it's more when Keller is looking at him--he's an object of desire in Keller's eyes, and that translates to how the camera lingers on him. I'm specifically thinking of the instances when he's praying in his pod (once alone and once with Said) and then when Keller is in his pod talking to Sister Pete and looking out at Beecher in the common area.

Yeah, everybody seems to know about those two! I thought it was funny when Winthrop said to Keller in the storage closet, "I thought you only had eyes for Beecher." Yeah, he does... and that should have been your first clue, buddy!

Hahaha, yeah, that was so funny! Beecher is rather adorable when he's crazy.

Oh wow... SO glad Meloni missed Oz and wanted to come back!!!! I love his character, and I think the show wouldn't have been as good without him.

 

Yes, I didn't feel sorry for Winthrop at all, what he did to papa Beecher was horrible! (I remember a similar (but even stronger) "serves you right" feeling when Wangler got killed!)

Ohh finally you're there now That's what I meant when I said I think he'd be capable of hurting him even when he wouldn't kill him. That was a really naive move of Beecher and like many other plot devices in season 6 just to keep Toby in Oz and everything interesting, I think. I mean, on the one hand it would've been awful if it was the truth and his wife was deadly sick but.. what kind of story is that?? And he can't arrange for the guy to deliver it to her directly or someone else to get it? Riiight. I think he shouldn't have told Chris about sleeping with the teacher and everything, you could tell that he didn't take it well.

Yes, Adebisi's death was epic and Said's plain stupid.

I'm really curious about the book but not sure if it's worth ordering / reading, depends on the content! A story about the inmates in Oz would be great, Augustus's philosophical monologues not so much. I mean, I like them in the show but if the whole book was like that... xD

Haha, Nappa! Everytime I think of him, I have to think about this one quote: "Needless to say, I'm upset by Peter Schibetta's rape... I'm his godfather. *Glynn and McManus exchange looks* No, his ACTUAL godfather!"

Yeah, I feel lke his actor is underappreciated, Dean Winters gets all the glory, but IMO Cyril is way more difficult to play.

Who was Lopreste again? Metzger wasn't there yet I think, AFAIR he got into Em City when Diane or somewhere else got transferred out (Vern and the others were talking about a new Aryan CO). I feel like the Diane story was weak at times anyway, how the murder of Scott Ross and the "consequences" were resolved...

After K fucked up his parole, even I thought B shouldn't stay with him anymore =/ You just couldn't trust him anymore.

Totally, they seem to be really oblivious when it comes down to sex, just think of Hanlon, Cutler or Ronnie!

BTW, isn't it strange how Ryan is in the council during the riot even though he didn't have any men following him? (except for Beechball )

Sorry for the short post, next one will be longer again I think *not much time right now*

edit: Oh, I just watched Lost to the point where Michael does this thing that makes everyone hate him, I think! To be exact episode 21 "?", the second one about Mr. Eko.


LOST SPOILER (just to be sure x3) :



I even liked Ana Lucia (apparently she had so few fans?), too bad =/ I didn't care that much about Libby, but it must suck so much to die like that, with the murderer's name on her lips that everyone interprets the wrong way! But I wonder if the newly discovered camera station has a record of the shooting...

When Mr Eko headbutted Locke, I had to grin because that reminded me of a certain Adebisi move used on an Italian inmate... before a certain scene

 

I watched episodes six and seven of the sixth season of Oz. Only one more to go! One question... I think there's an extended edition of the finale on the set. I think I'm going to watch that first (and maybe watch the regular one that aired later) unless anyone thinks I shouldn't...?

I can't believe Glynn is dead!!! I did not see that coming and really I have to wonder how that would have been possible. I mean how did an inmate get into his office to kill him--especially an inmate who was in solitary?? I guess maybe the evil guard let him out. Anyway, I was pretty shocked.

That, and Omar is dead! He annoyed the crap out of me in the beginning, but he's really grown on me over the last few seasons. Ugh, I can't believe Itzik killed him, too. I hope Itzik rots in solitary.

What exactly is Keller's game? He tries to get Beecher back, fails and is now hanging out with Vern? And Beecher is being stupid too--why would he go up to Schillinger and Keller and tell Schillinger that Keller killed Winthrop. My god, Beecher, have you learned nothing at all?? Seriously, leave it alone! That annoyed me--Beecher can be so dumb sometimes. I'm not sure whose side Keller is really on, though I think he still loves Beecher and I don't think he'll kill him. I do wonder if he's going to rape Beecher though given what he said to Vern in the library about wanting to "fuck Beecher up the ass one more time"--and if he would have if Suzanne hadn't come along.

Robson has HIV? I guess he got it from Cutler? Poor guy, that does suck. That rape support group was interesting but Robson hardly spoke at all. I think Beecher should have been there, too... not sure if there's anyone else who was raped that we know who is still alive at this point! It would have been more interesting if we'd heard from characters we'd seen on the show before.

Alvarez being an ass to Busmalis about Norma reminded me once again why I don't really like him at all. So glad Norma showed up this time and she and Busmalis got married!

I'm glad Stella is okay, too. I wonder if she and Rebadow have a future of any kind.

I'm probably forgetting some stuff, but overall, decent episodes. Better than some of the earlier ones were. I wonder what I'm going to think of the finale...

I didn't like Wangler much, either. I was cheering Keller on for killing Winthrop! And I was more than a little annoyed that Beecher ratted him out to Schillinger in the seventh episode, too. I guess Beecher is really pissed at Keller for screwing up his parole. I'd be annoyed, too, but Beecher really only has himself to blame. He was really stupid to agree to that plan.

It was totally naive on Beecher's part. I get that he trusts Keller when he shouldn't sometimes, but come on... he has his kids to think about. That just frustrated me. And I did feel bad for Keller when Beecher was talking about the teacher... come on, Beecher, have a little compassion. Keller is fucking head over heels for Toby. I thought that was a little insensitive to say the least.

Yeah, I'm curious about it, too. I looked it up but it seems to be out of print, though you can still get it used on Amazon.

Hahaha, that was pretty funny!

A scene like that one really shows his range.

Lopreste was one of the Aryan guards who worked on death row for a while. He was a total ass. I thought Metzger was there in season two, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, yeah, the handling of Scott Ross's death and the consequences for Diane always felt a little weird... it would be a big threat and then it wouldn't, and then it would come up again, and then fade away....

I have to agree, which is sad. At this point, if Beecher goes back to Keller, he's just asking for it. I wonder what will happen if he doesn't, though--I don't think Keller is going to give up on him.

Didn't Ryan end up with Ross with him?

Random aside, "Beechball" is just such an awesome nickname for Beecher! When Vern was all like, "Hey Beechball!" when Beecher was in the infirmary in season two, it totally cracked me up. I think it's the cutest nickname ever, despite the source.

Yep, that is exactly why most people hate Michael! I'm one of them... that just made me so mad. It was so shocking, though, wasn't it?? I remember watching it on television and being like, "Oh my god!!" Lost will have some shockers like that.

 

Wow, I'm lucky I just checked for an answer XDD Perfect timing!

I don't know what the difference is with the extended finale, so unfortunately I can't tell you. I remember the version I watched to be around 68 min long! *_*

Glynn's death was... strange. Similar to Said, a major character dies in a really unrealistic way. If the security of maximum sec. prisons is as good as in Oz, then amen..

I felt sorry for Omar, too He WAS annoying, but you could tell that he's not a bad person and I loved how he worshipped McManus and Said.

With Keller, you can never be sure but personally I thought he was still on Beecher's side in secret. I'm more surprised Vern let him back in and still trusted him, now *that's* what I call dumb... then again, you really have no idea with Chris and what he's up to I love the backstage-scene though. Besides the hotness, I think the moment where Chris pulls out the fake knife, stabs himself in the head, then draws the real one is awesome

Well, you could say Robson got what he deserved. Just imagine how it'd be if he hadn't got HIV. He would be back in the Aryans after proving himself by killing Cutler, just as big a jerk like before.

BTW, I wonder why... Cutler? Or was it Hoyt? Left everything to Alvarez... (I love the scene between Robson and Miguel where they "talk" about it!)

I don't remember that, but then again I think during the end I skipped some parts of Busmalis and Rebadow. I just wanted to get to the end and their (IMO boring) stories suddenly took up so much screentime, similar to phone company / book binding company.

I rewatched the story about the poor guy who destroyed the statue (Vern calls him a sick bastard though, lol?!) and he must be one of the saddest guys in Oz, even more than Schibetta and Beecher He wasn't raped, but he was just SO sensitive, crying about his stolen shoes etc.
I was actually a bit surprised how nice Vern was to Keller. He knew that he killed Winthrop and was all like "I don't care, he was nothing" and welcome Chris back. I really wonder how the relationship of those two is, there's also a sudden kiss scene between them in the final ep, I think. °°

Yeah, I mean Chris was being nosy, but still... I also felt bad for him though, I mean for loving him so much Beecher sure found someone new fast.. that's how it must've felt to Keller, at least.



Yeah, I'm curious about it, too. I looked it up but it seems to be out of print, though you can still get it used on Amazon.

Oh, was he the one who was screwing Shirley?
Yes, Metzger was the one who led Beecher to the gym. But at the beginning of season 2 when Diane was still there, he wasn't in Em City.
Guess they didn't have to worry anymore because the actress was suddenly out! Otherwise (if they had known earlier that she would quit), they could've cleared that issue, I guess.

YES!! Beechball sounds sooo cute and awesome definitely my favorite in the entire series besides "Little Nino" XD

I was expecting him doing something bad because there had to be a reason why you said the fans hated him. But it was still shocking. I also thought it was stupid of the group to be so naive, even without the prior knowledge I found it strange and suspicious. (Why do they always keep vital infos from each other anyway?? It would work sooo much better... if Locke hadn't f.e. lied about how Ana Lucia was attacked by "Henry" / same thing about the two hatches + Desmond's prior experience with the code...) What were the chances it was only a coincidence that Michael came along when Jack asked for the deal?! Also, Ana Lucia was a capable cop, how would the captive have managed to cut his ropes, get out, get a gun and shoot her while she is sitting on the couch like nothing's wrong? Kudos for Said being the only one to notice something's wrong.

I'm a bit angry at myself for stumbling across some spoilers (Eko's death, I also knew of Boone and Shannon, but luckily only right before I watched the episodes), with a "everyone can die" attitude like in Lost, it would've been more fun / shocking otherwise. I think I even know that Michael's gone for good, because Harrold Perrineau was AFAIR only signed in for around 46-48 episodes. Pity how such simple infos can spoiler you!

 

Yes indeed! And oh wow, I guess the finale on the DVD set must really be extended, because I think they promoed it as a "100 minute finale." I'll probably just watch the extended one tonight.

Glynn's death didn't feel as random as Said's... at least it was tied into a currently running storyline. And I saw Omar's coming, too, though it made me really sad. I felt bad for McManus--he was so determined not to fail with Omar, and you could tell he just felt awful when he saw him lying dead on the gurney.

Yeah, I think he's siding with Beecher--it's just another ploy to get Beecher back, I think. Vern is being dumb to trust him, but maybe he's counting on Keller's sense of self-preservation to trump his obsession with Beecher. I think it's a little random that Schillinger once again wants to kill Beecher, but maybe he thinks he can just get Keller to do it and be done with Beecher once and for all.

Keller is so creepy, but yes, hot at the same time! Beecher looked way more scared than turned on, though. I cracked up when Keller stabbed himself in the head with the fake shank--he was being so crazy! Beecher looked so terrified. It cracked me up that when Keller went for him, Beecher threw his script at him. Oh, poor Beecher... sometimes he really does need someone to protect him. Keller tying him up and putting the moves on him was .

Maybe... I guess he probably would have gone back to being an ass if he hadn't gotten HIV. I guess it's kind of Karma, but at the same time, the show really created some sympathy for him in the past few episodes.

It was Cutler and that strikes me as another stupid storyline that just makes no sense. It seemed like they're just trying to give Alvarez a love interest in Cutler's wife.

Yeah, why was that guy in a maximum security prison anyway??

That does feel kind of random. I don't think Schillinger ever had anything against Keller personally--it was Keller's love for Beecher that got under his skin. The kiss felt random, because there didn't seem to be anything sexual in the pact between them--Schillinger eve said, no sex, just two guys looking out for each other. I think he recognizes how useful an ally Keller is, but I don't think he realizes he can't control Keller--or that Keller is still very much in love with Beecher.

I totally felt for him in that moment. Chris did press, but Beecher shouldn't have brought up the teacher in a way that made it obvious that something was going on between them. Beecher did move on quickly--Beecher always found people who were eager to sleep with him, both male and female, inside and outside of prison!

Yes, that was him!

I won't say too much because I don't know exactly how far you are, but it was maddening watching them all not know it was Michael!!! That drove me nuts at the time.

Yeah, I've seen spoilers like that, too, with Oz... I saw that Adebisi wasn't in all the eps, and Keller (though in Keller's case, it's obviously gaps of time that he was missing, rather than because he was killed off). I think it's hard to stay unspoiled on a show that has already aired, or that has seasons that have already aired... which is why I wouldn't get upset over Oz spoilers. I was actually completely unspoiled on Glynn's death, though!

 

Sorry, I think I made a mistake and the actual ep was already around 100 min long! The number seemed too high to me, but that's what tv.com says too and I couldn't remember anymore, even though it wasn't thaaat long ago I only recalled the last ep was longer than any oher season finales.

Yeah, I really liked how for once the guy McManus wanted to help change actually tried so hard! Most of the times when Omar messed up it wasn't delibarete, he had good intentions I guess (like when he was thrown in solitary for almost killing Cutler for wanting to kill Said). =/ Oh and there was this time where he attacked McManus and demanded and apology afterwards

The plot is really random and contradicting at times. If we consider that Vern probably even sent an Aryan to shank Keller that time...
Yeah, but that wouldn't make sense either because he actually wanted to kill him himself until Chris spoke up. His reasoning was that Toby knows too much (which is kinda true and with the way he went to talk about it so loudly...)

Hehe yes, but if I were Beechball, I'd be scared, too! Keller could've easily killed him then. That's what made the dangerous play + the kiss so thrilling, I guess!

Yeah, he was already going back to behaving like always. I read there's a deleted scene in the final ep including him, that fat Homeboy and Schillinger... it sounded really interesting. In the regular version, the last we saw of him was his goodbye-saying to the rape victims group!

It really felt that way... he gets one more thrown at him at the very last seconds / ep *lol*

I have no idea, maybe he was "being made an example of"?! (Nay, that doesn't fit in his case either...) There are a few plotholes though, like a mentally retarded person like Cyril living among the others. How did you like the O'Reilly's stories?

Yeah, we've talked about it, they would likely get along well if it wasn't for Beechy...
The kiss was really out of nowhere, but I loved the scene Vern's skeptical face and how he looked around afterwards, as if to make sure nobody saw them and then this little eyerolling-shrugging-shaking his head-thing XD It was so typical of Chris though, I wonder what he thought!

That did seem strange to me too, similar to McManus. They've got good hearts and all, but they didn't seem so appealing to me, with Toby it got better over time (after nerd!Beecher and crazy!Beecher ), but usually I'd say Chris would be the one with more admirers.

It actually came out pretty quickly! I was surprised they took it so "well", no violence or anything.

It's really hard, even by avoiding the fandom community itself spoilers lurk everywhere it seems!
BTW, I was so surprised when I saw Adewale here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAzKXfAwh48 He did indeed look really handsome when he was younger and apparently he was also a fashion model. There were a few interviews with him on YT and I'm still not used to hear him speak "normal" without his accent etc XD What would I give to see the Oz cast backstage etc, just imagine they had done those things that are common now (interviews, spoofs!, making of etc)! There are way too many actors but I'd love to know what were their favorite / least favorite parts etc XD

 

Oh wow, I wonder how long the extended one is then! I'm going to watch it tonight... I'm really excited! And a little worried...

Omar was a screw up, but in the end he made good, and did the right thing by not killing Itzik. I just wish he'd been rewarded for it rather than being killed!

Toby was definitely stupid to go up to Vern and Keller and basically taunt them. I get that he's pissed at Keller, but he should have kept it between him and Keller, rather than taunting Schillinger, who will look for any excuse to hurt Toby.

Haha, yeah, it was hot. It kind of plays to the pattern of their relationship, too, with Keller getting off on dominating/controlling Beecher.

Oh wow, I'll have to look at that in the deleted scenes!

It's okay... I don't know that I'm as invested in it as I should be. I feel bad for Cyril, but I feel like it's soooo drawn out and just being played for pathos. The last minute stay of execution felt OMG dramatic, too. I guess we'll see where it goes in the last episode... I definitely don't want Cyril to die, but like I said at the beginning of season six, I figured either he or Keller would be executed, and since Keller is off of death row...

Keller does love keeping people on their toes, that's for sure! I guess that was his way of showing Vern he's loyal.

Oh yeah, I'd expect people would be falling all over Keller--if he wasn't a deadly psychopath. And he also really only seemed to have eyes for Beecher. Even when they were split up, it was Beecher that was sleeping around, not Keller. As for Beecher and McManus getting all the love... I think in McManus's case, he's the guy women think they can "save" and "fix up." That appeals to some women. And Beecher is just so sweet, self-deprecating and genuinely charming that I think people get drawn in by that. I think he's adorable--maybe not classically handsome like Keller, but he definitely has that indefinable "something."

I wish they'd done more extras for Oz! I'd love an in-depth featurette talking about the show. I need to listen to the rest of the commentaries at some point. The deleted scenes are great to have--every season except for season two has them.

OK, off to watch the finale!

 

Well, I watched the last episode! I can't believe it's all over... I want more. I thought it was interesting that there were still a lot of things up in the air when the episode ended... would McManus keep his job? Would Devlin be convicted of ordering the Mayor killed? Would Beecher get convicted for Keller's murder? I want to know the answers... at the same time, I kind of like that it was open-ended.

OK, I loved that Querns was back. I don't know why exactly, but I really love that guy. I liked his "I'm baaack" but also that it definitely felt like he'd changed. I feel like he did try to do good back in season four... he just thought that by giving some leeway, he could get the results he wanted. It was the wrong approach, but without malice. Another thing was REALLY made me like him in this episode was his reaction to Cyril's execution... you could tell he was really hoping a call would come in at the last minute to save Cyril. And him throwing up afterwards showed how affected he was by the execution. That and he seemed to want to save McManus's job... anyway, I thought it was great to see him back.

Cyril's execution was very upsetting and incredibly wrong. I do feel like it was teased out throughout the season, but the climactic moment was still very powerful and very affecting. I felt so bad for him, and for Ryan. I'm glad Gloria was there for Ryan in that moment, and that Ryan made peace with his dad. It was a good send off for his character.

I love that McManus finally has something on Devlin, and I hope he can actually get him this time! I feel like he's got a shot. Devlin went too far, first in having the mayor murder, but definitely in killing Glynn.

And wow... after six years, Beecher finally gets to kill Schillinger... or, well, be the prop Keller uses to kill Schillinger. Random aside--did anyone catch what Schillinger says to Beecher when they're fighting (and Schillinger thinks he's going to kill Beecher)? All I caught was "something something Sweetpea."

As for the ending to the big Beecher-Keller romance... I'm still digesting it. There's a lot there to think about! I love Beecher, but his saccharine "every death is a loss!" speech was just too... goodie two shoes. I get that he's too sweet for his own good, and I get that he probably didn't want Schillinger dead in that moment... but come on, dude. It was you or him. Beecher can be such a wuss sometimes.

Keller is just such an interesting mix of complicated and simple sometimes. His obsession was completely unwavering: he wanted Beecher, and he'd do anything to have him, and get anyone out of the way who stood between them. But then when it comes down to it, there's one person in the way he can't do anything about, and that's Beecher himself. I kind of expected him to wait it out since Beecher usually caves eventually, or just force himself on Beecher figuring that was the answer. The suicide/frame-up job... I guess he figured life without Beecher wasn't worth living, but at the same time, wanted to "punish" Beecher for not giving in and giving him what he wants. I feel like if it wasn't the final episode, Keller would have done something different... that giving up that easily after all he'd done to possess Beecher didn't exactly feel right.

That being said, I still mostly bought it, and though it was a tragic ending for them, but one that was probably in the cards at that point. Taking Beecher away from his kids probably wasn't something Beecher could forgive. But then, he forgave Schillinger and Schillinger had his son killed, so who knows? I kind of wish they'd left that one ambiguous but I guess they felt a need to wrap that story up.

The two things that bugged me: Beecher saying he was going to testify for the FBI and Beecher's smile at the end when he found out the Aryans were dead. It came off as hypocritical. Here he's telling Keller that he believes every life is precious, yadda, yadda, yadda, and he was basically going to lie to the FBI and send Keller back to death row. Same thing with him being happy the Aryans were dead--it felt hypocritical after the big speech he gave Keller. Maybe the smile was because he knew the murder in the mailroom was an act of love on Keller's part (oh, Keller's way of showing he was in love with Beecher could be so twisted! ), but that Beecher was going to lie on the stand and testify to something that was false just to get his own sentence reduced bugged the hell out of me. He probably wouldn't have gone through with it in the end... his conscience would have won out. But it made him look like a hypocrite... not the way I would have liked to see things wrapped up for him.

All in all, not a bad end to the show. I didn't like the beginning of season six, and the meaninglessness of Said's death still bugs me. Glad Itzik didn't get his wish to die... a little bit of poetic justice. Though his reasoning for killing Said was laaaaame. Said told him about the heat death of the universe? OK, heat death freaks me out, too. Not a motive for murder, nutjob! Still don't like that plotline. But I digress.

I can't believe I'm all done with it! I definitely want to go back and rewatch the whole thing... maybe this summer. I really love this show. It's not like anything else on TV, and the tone of it was just so unique.

I still have the deleted scenes from season six to watch, so I'll probably check those out at some point. I want to listen to the commentaries, too, when time permits. I've had a blast discussing this show with everyone--thanks to all of you who revisited it so you could chat with me. I really appreciate it!

 

I thought the way they handled Cyril's execution was strange. First, it was all epic and a last minute stay, really sad... so the actual execution felt anti-climatic, poor guy didn't even know what was happening and Ryan wasn't there. ;/ I also didn't feel like it was that good an ending for Ryan, a relationship with Gloria was still unthinkable and he had lost Cyril. I don't like his father and he probably doesn't have long too.. well, at least he's got his mother.

As for McManus, I'm not sure if there will be an Em City again. Everything kept going wrong; killings aside the major incidents like the riot, the gas explosion, toxic gas and Leo's murder!

I'm curious: How did you like Miguel's end? I think even though he's alive he's got one of the saddest / most hopeless endings! He could've been out after 2 years, but instead he's just stuck and lost his will...

I wish there was more about Oz, too! Do you by any chance know of any interviews? I've only read one each of Lee, Harrold and Dean Winters so far!

I forgot about that, I didn't really care about Querns, but the throwing up part made him likeable indeed! IMO, his mistake in the part was this utilitarian thinking, "the goal justifies the meanings".

He said "You're a dead man Sweetpea." I loved the moment afterwards, when he realized what Keller had done and "that cocksucker!" being his last words (and some random guy in the audience going "That motherfucker's DEAD!" XD) BTW, this real incident seems really fitting : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7777086.stm Another Keller behind the scenes?

Yeah, but he didn't know (exactly, at least) that Vern was planning to kill him, although he should've guessed so. Though if it wasn't for Keller, nobody could've gotten a real shank on stage... but Toby would be a dead man, sooner or later. Did you notice that every MacBeth has died? XD (Father Meeham, Schibetta and now Vern)

@The end of B / K : Definitely! He couldn't let go of Beecher, but he didn't want anyone else to have him, either.
" Keller: Toby, I couldn't face the rest of my life living here without you. Don't you see? I did what I did out of love.
Beecher: If you love me, then leave me alone.
Keller: I.....can't."
I think this explains it so well. I think if Keller could, he would let Toby go (like he initially wanted to before his first parole chance), because we all know he loves him. But it's in his nature, he's so obsessive, the same way he is a killer. I think Toby forgave him, because if someone understood Keller, it's Toby. Doesn't change the facts though, being accused of murder etc. and probably never getting out again.

I'm absolutely sure Beecher smiled because he realized it was Keller's doing and not because the Aryans (and 2 COs) died. It was like his last gift/message to Beecher, even after his death.
I have to admit I didn't feel THAT sorry for Beecher because of one of the 2 points you mentioned: He intended on selling Keller out to get himself free. To be fair, Keller would still be on death row without him and he would already be free if it wasn't for Keller, but still... it's as if Keller was telling everyone Beecher ordered the hit on Hank, he'd never do that... I think. =/ It still sucked for Toby, of course...

Yeah, there were so many pointless things during the end I'd like to deny, like Said's and Schibetta's death and also in a way, Leo's, Cyril's and Vern's death. They were more believable than the first two ones, but still... I think Adebisi's death (ep 8 of season 4 I think?) was the milestone, after that there were already a few strange stories, especially in season 6. How many audio commentaries are there, 1-2 episodes per season, right?

BTW, I've been wondering for a while but always forgot to ask: Who's that on your icon? Is that actually you?

 

I guess I bought the Ryan and Gloria relationship in the same way I bought the Keller and Beecher one. In a regular setting, Gloria would never go for Ryan in the same way Beecher would never go for Keller. But this is Oz... and their lives are all pretty fucked up. It was kind of nice to see them get that moment. And yeah, it's Ryan's mother who Ryan will probably need to lean on... good thing she works at the prison!

Good point--that could be the end of Em City!

I knew there was a storyline I forgot to comment on! If I liked Miguel better, I'd probably feel sorrier for him. I just think what he did to Rivera was so reprehensible and said so much about the weakness in his character. But I did start to feel more sympathy for him towards the end, and I thought it was unfair for him to just be summarily denied parole. What was his sentence again?

I did think the thing with Torquemada was interesting--I didn't even realize that was Bobby Cannivale!! I guess in prison you take comfort where you can get it, and build relationships so you're not all alone.

I don't, actually! But I'd love to see the interviews you saw, especially the one with Lee! I'd be curious to hear what he has to say about Beecher.

Yeah, I think his intentions were good, but the execution was terrible. I think he'll do a better job this time around.

Ah, thank you! I rewound a couple of times to try to hear, but all I could understand was the "Sweetpea" part. I knew it had to be a threat or something like that... fitting that Schillinger used his old nickname for Beecher.

Oh, that real life story is terrible--big oops, glad the guy is okay--but in Oz it was an awesome moment. I love how everyone cheered. Vern was definitely the Big Bad of Oz, and it didn't seem like anyone was sorry to see him go.

Well, it is the cursed play! You're actually supposed to call it "The Scottish Play" when you're in the theater, and not MacBeth.

Agreed... I think Beecher did understand that Keller wasn't capable of letting him go. It really was a no win there, and maybe that's why Beecher thought he had to testify to free himself of Keller. In his own way, Keller did try to build a happy ending for them... it's too bad he didn't try to escape from Oz rather than fucking up Toby's parole.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right. A little love gift to Beecher... because Keller did really love him. It just felt weird after Beecher's little "every life is precious" speech. I think I kind of hated that speech.

I think I feel the same, which is what bugs me, because I pretty much always found Toby to be a really sympathetic character. Keller did everything he could to show Toby that he loved him, and made as many sacrifices as I think he was able. True, fucking up Beecher's parole was cruel, but he couldn't have done it if Beecher hadn't went along with it. Beecher should blame himself as much as Keller, really.

And honestly, Beecher knew what Keller was when he slept with him at the end of season three. He knew Keller was a murderer, he knew Keller was obsessed with him, he knew Keller was capable of betrayal. His rejection of Keller after what Keller had done for him was cruel in a way.

Said's death is definitely the one that bothers me. And Cyril's because I don't think it's realistic that he would have been executed and not sent to the psychiatric ward. Adebisi's was definitely a great death, and Leo's was sad but definitely a shocker (and not without context, though it did stretch believability). Vern's death was just... well, you needed that to happen at the end of the show, I think. He was set up as the worst of the worst, and I think it was fitting for Beecher to get to kill him (even if it was an accident as far as Beecher was concerned) after all Vern had done to Beecher.

If I recall correctly... two on season 1, (can't remember for season 2), one on season 3, two on season 4, one on season 5, and three on season 6.

That's Buffy from Buffy the Vampire Slayer... my all time favorite character/show ever. I have no idea how to make icons, so I've had it forever, but I love it!

I forgot to mention, I did watch the Extended cut of the finale, but it was 100 minutes... so I'm not sure how that works out. I might go watch the regular cut--I wonder if they swapped out footage? The biggest thing that was added in was a wrap-up of Robson's storyline--Clarence came to rape him in the bathroom, so Robson let him knowing he had HIV. Vern kicked Robson out of the brotherhood after hearing about it, but Robson didn't seem to care. He got sent off to Unit F because he's HIV positive.

The other extended stuff was mostly little scenes here and there (a flashback to Leo's death, Beecher sitting in the maze trying to decide whether to sell out Keller or not, etc.).

 

There are many parallels between those two relationships, though strangely in the first moment when I thought about it just now B / K seemed "healthier" to me because it started out mutual while Ryan had Gloria's husband killed... but then again there was the whole B / K betrayal, so I guess both (or in this case all four) are really messed up... xD Do you think Chris would've ever killed Beecher's wife or lover?

I wonder if Ryan's mom will be able to stay and get paid? I hope so! But I mean, she's doing social work for free now, right? And they always had to keep the costs for the props for a minimum. Well, maybe she'd continue working free of charge for Ryan? :3

Hmh, Rivera was a poor guy indeed, what Miguel did to him was horrible... but with this logic we shouldn't be able to feel sympathy towards anyone in Oz, most of them killed somebody or did horrible things. Keller is a serial killer, Beecher isn't that innocent himself, Vern did so many despicable things... but in the end it all comes down to personal opinions and taste, I guess. XD

His sentence was 15 years, up to parole in 2. He beat an old man who scratched his car and cut his face (which is why he makes the same cut on his own face in Oz). I wonder how long he'll have to serve now after cutting Rivera's eyes... it's sad, he could've been out after just 2 years if he had kept his nose clean. But he was one of the leaders in the riot and then the Rivera thing... bad things kept happening to him though, I'll have to count the times he got shanked when I rewatch I bet if his baby had survived, it would've been all different he wanted to be a good father after all and probably would've tried to get paroled soon because of it.

I didn't know Torquemada's actor, but funny thing how he really has a chance of running business despite his utterly queer behaviour just because of his D-tabs! It's also ironic how Miguel is one of the few main characters I don't remember ever taking drugs / engage in intercourse with inmates and it all changed in the last ep.. oh, wait, there were Groves' liquid LSD stamps, though =O

BTW, I did see a lot of actors from Oz in Law & Order SVU! There were Mobai, the guy who destroyed the statue, Chico...

http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=1725
Here it is! The others are there, too. I'm confused by Dean Winter's statement here though:

"DG: Of all of the evil things you've been asked to do on OZ, was there one thing that was really rough for you to do?

DW: No. Some of the most evil stuff that I did I came up with. I guess there were some rough things. I'm not a big fan of walking around in the nude in front of 50 people. (Dean laughs) I never had to deal with rape or being raped. Actually I think I was the only person on the show that got to have sex with four or five women. I know that that was not easy for some of the guys, especially the guy who played (Peter) Schibetta. He had a hard time with that (being raped). Let's put it this way, I never got a script that made me think, 'I've gotta talk to Tom. I can't do that.' That was the great thing about this cast"


When did Ryan sleep with 4-5 women?? I only remember Howell... and dreamsex with Gloria

But the rape thing sounds ouch, "*especially* the guy who played Peter" ? XD I wonder what happened!

Np ^^ I didn't see it that way, he sure had lots of nicks for him! Beechball is still my favorite though XD

I wonder if anyone of the Aryans even truly cared? Sad thing to think about. But Robson was the only one who came close to being his friend, I guess.

Oh really? They did call it MacBeth the whole time though? XD I would've liked to see the auditions! I always love it when you realize who of the inmates are more educated (or at least have a decent vocabulary) like with Beecher or Vern in the play, you could tell they had absolutely no problems while people like Cutler didn't understand the text and story. I also wonder how old Schibetta was, just remembered that he said he had done the play in highschool

I guess he felt betrayed and to be honest, breaking out would have been the harder, probably almost impossible possibilty.

I totally agree! Even or especially in Oz standards, it was a bit cruel... "normal" people would sure blame Keller instead of Beecher, but after everything that happened I'm not surprise Keller took that last step. Though his plan to kill the Aryans was kinda stupid and overkill, they would've sent the next ones into Em City (though I do understand those wouldn't want to hurt Beecher or himself... maybe!)

Yeah, it was pretty... unspectacular, illogical and just badly written. Cyril's was sad but realistic, sadly many mentally handicapped have been executed AFAIK. In 1999, there were 250 of them waiting on death row!
I didn't care that much about Adebisi, Leo and Vern because their deaths weren't that badly written - especially not Adebisi's - , but the show wouldn't be the same without them! =/

Wow, I feel stupid for not recognizing her! I even thougt about it for a minute, but I hadn't seen her face in years (I hardly ever watched the show, either), so I wasn't sure XD

Robson's deleted end would interest me, but if that's the only major difference... huh =o

I'll have to think about which show to watch next XD I'm a bit tired of Lost right now (still have to watch the beginning of season 3!)

 

Speak for yourself.

I didn't mind it at all.
Not at all indeed.

 

He had a flashback (when he told the story how Cyril got brain-damaged) where we saw him having sex with a girlfriend of some wiseguy (who was also his ex-girlfriend) during a funeral or something? and then a big fight broke out when he caught them, and Cyril got hurt - remember that?

But this is still just 3 women... I don't remember, did we get to see him with his wife, maybe early in season 1 when they had conjugal visits?

Speaking of Howell, it's really amazing how much her character grated on people - kudos to the actress for pulling such a difficult role - I mean, you have a show about prison full of inmates who are in for life or very long sentences, there are no conjugal visits allowed, there is a lot of male rape going on, and still, the show managed to have a really convincing female villain who was sexually abusing male prisoners! A lot of times when a storyline about a female abusing a male is attempted on the screen, it falls flat and viewers make all those stupid jokes that the guy was lucky and why would he object and so on - not this time! Granted, the fact that she wasn't very attractive helped a lot - but it was her attitude and behavior that really sold it, IMO.

On Oz forums I've seen, there would be sometimes be a rare person who's say something to the effect of "well, she is still female and they're in prison" but they'd usually get shut up immediately by everyone else going on about how awful she was! The funniest example comes from that Vern-adoring Aryan guy at the heavy metal forum I read (mind you, I'm not into heavy metal at all, I just found it by Google and had fun reading through the Oz thread) - and you can guess that most of those guys were not exactly gay-friendly... when the Howell/Ryan storyline started, and people were making unfavorable comments about her, someone said something like "But O'Reilly at least has found a chick to bang, while the other guys are banging each other" but the Aryan guy was so disgusted by Howell that he said (quote by memory): "Heck, compared to that kind of chick, Keller is ten times lovelier and more feminine... maybe even Adebisi" which got a lot of teasing from the other guys there

Speaking of her, nobody mentions the end to her storyline? I thought it was good that they gave her a sort of sympathetic moment at the end, with the unwanted pregnancy, although I guess it's also one of those "you were asking for it" moments. Also you could sort of learn/guess a bit about her background from what she said. I'm guessing she grew up around real assholes, and started to emulate the bad behavior of the men she had known (and taking it as far as possible). She probably didn't have very nice experiences with men - and we know she didn't take well to being dumped (ask McManus). But then she seems to have used her position in prison to act out her issues (and prisoners are "scum", so it's OK to mistreat them, right ).

I guess the lameness of Said's death was sort of what they intended... we would have expected a really epic death for him, or at least a meaningful one, something to do with his struggle and his beliefs etc... but instead, of all his enemies, this great man dies when a sad old little lunatic kills him for no logical reason. I guess they meant it as an example of cosmic irony, or something...

Vern's death was... fitting. Macbeth was always my favorite play by Shakespeare (the one that really got me into him) so I couldn't help enjoying the obvious parallels to the plot of the play (with Beecher playing Macduff - I could have guessed that one! and black guys playing the Siwards and Malcolm... and the hated despot, of course, really dead at the end) - I suppose it was a bit corny, but suitably epic nevertheless!

That incident is even more similar to the plot of an early episode of Midsommer Murders (ever seen it? It's a corny but fun British murder mystery show that doesn't take itself too seriously, unlike many other, grittier UK crime dramas... it takes place in rural English setting, the plots are convoluted and complicated, and it's quite light and contains a good dose of humor... even though there's usually a high body count! ), where an actor was actually murdered by having a false razor substituted for a real one, so he actually cut his throat on the scene during a suicide scene! Maybe someone watched that and got the idea...

 

Oh right, I forgot about that one! I wondered if Ryan's love and behaviour towards Cyril had to do something with that incident. After all, it was kinda his fault (more or less), he slept with that woman which provoked the fight and the blow on Cyril's head.
I don't think so, conjugal visits were forbidden since ep 3 and Ryan's wife came later than that to visit! Maybe Dean Winters just exaggerated or remembered wrongly? Strange though!

I wonder how many things the actors influenced, apparently a big part of Ryan's part was suggested by the actor, he must've gotten along well with Tom Fontana. The early eps also suggest that it wasn't planned from the beginning that Cyril's mentally handicapped. Must be difficult for most of the actors (not the main cast) when you don't know what's awaiting you next, maybe being raped/killed etc xD

I agree with you on Howell. Sometimes, a character is just so unlikeable I even kinda dislike the actor and wonder what he/she's like in real... That speaks for the actor though (at least if the hatred is intentionally provoked ). And of course IMO it's harder for you and your image to play a really despicable and unsympathetic role like Howell or Vern.

*rofl* That sounds so awesome Do you by any chance still have the link to that thread? Sounds interesting! It's like reading what those people on stormtrooper write... different opinions which are so extreme(ly wrong) but in a way amusing.
I guess anyone not completely homophobic with just a slightly good taste would prefer Keller to Howell!
Funny thing he mentioned Adebisi though! I have to say that I didn't understand it at all at first when people called him attractive, I guess I was too shocked/intimidated by his portrayal. And I still can't see Adebisi as good-looking, while I do think of Adewale so as a person and as Mr. Eko. Another example for good acting, I guess...?
Putting aside how wrong that will sound now: If I were a male prisoner who wanted any action regardless of consent I'd prefer "prags", I guess Keller'd be too dangerous and Howell... if we quote Morales (? or was it someone else?) "now her, I'm afraid of!"

I actually liked the end to her story, it was similar to Robson. You finally got a glimpse of her vulnerable human side and you don't really feel that bad for them because they had it coming. I was content because I thought maybe they'd change for the better now... especially in Howell's case it'd be good for the child. Both of them also finally got (a bit of) an explanation to their miserable ways, Robson was abused and similar to Ryan someone who just wants to survive at any cost while your interpretation for Howell seems sound too. She was clearly one of those "power abuse" people. Unfortunately that seemed to be the motivation to work in prison for many guards, only the least of them wanted to actually help maintain a healthy/regular life for prisoners. I don't remember where I read it and if it was said in Oz, but there was something about people often being attracted to work in places that are related to themselves; people who had psychological problems become shrinks etc. When they planned the character McManus, they actually wanted to make him similar to the inmates; he doesn't really have a hold of his own life, moral grey zones, etc.

Wow, that razor incident would be a nightmarish way to die. xD Guess a lot of people have had similar thoughts though, I was just reminded of how Bruce Lee died during filming by getting shot by a real weapon...


(BTW: Aaand I saw two more Oz actors in SVU; Gloria and Richie Hanlon

I'm beginning to like Sayid in Lost! But Locke was particularly unpleasant at the end of season 2 =/
And my pretty picture of Sun also changed dramatically after episode 2 of season 3 o_O I was suspecting that she had betrayed Jin in the past, but I kept hoping she hadn't... even though it was understandable in her situation, I feel really bad for Jin now that we got to know him and his story better.)

 

Maybe I could find it, but even so, it was a Croatian forum so you probably wouldn't understand a thing (that remembered quote was actually my translation of it).

Of course!

I mean, I am heterosexual in the sense that I've never been in the least interested in sex or romance with women, but I can find a person attractive or unattractive whatever their gender. And let's say, if for some reason I had to choose to sleep either with a gorgeous, hot, charismatic woman, or with a guy that I found really unattractive and unlikeable - the choice is pretty obvious, isn't it?

(Although, well, it would also depend on what exactly you do in bed - some things would be acceptable but others I definitely don't find appealing, if you know what I mean! Which is probably a similar attitude of that of some of the hetero guys in gay relationships in prison - this is OK, but this I won't do...)

You're starting to scare me I can't really comment, since I can imagine myself as a man, but I really don't believe I'd ever want to force someone to have sex with me. Not just because it's wrong - I can imagine murdering people if I had to - but is just so disgusting. For that matter, I can't imagine ever paying anyone for sex, either. Ewww. I mean, what's the pleasure in having sex with someone who doesn't want you? I've never been able to understand that. Better use good ole masturbation. It's also safer, cleaner, easier to get any time you want it, and as Woody Allen said, it's sex with someone you love.

 

It's been a crazy week! Lots to catch up on. I did watch the deleted scenes for season six. The ones that stick out...

One with Beecher where he goes to Sister Pete to tell her he got Keller off death row. He's all happy and Sister Pete reminds him that Keller is still guilty. Beecher gets all huffy and says that instead of being executed, Keller will die a long, slow death in Oz. Then he storms out.

There's a scene with Peter Schibetta where he's rehearsing for MacBeth. Ryan comes in and gets pissed off to see him there and tells Suzanne she needs to stay away from him.

In one Omar goes to Beecher to try to get him to kill Itzik and Beecher is like, no, that's not what Said would want.

There were a few more memorable ones, but it's been a week since I've watched them, so I might have to review them on the DVD again.

Oh, in a heartbeat! I think Keller would kill anyone who he thought stood in the way of him possessing Beecher. I mean, he was willing to kill Said, and Said was Beecher's best friend in prison. And also someone with no romantic interest in Beecher, whose death would have devastated Beecher. So yeah, I think Keller would do just about anything to have Beecher.

Yeah, but none of them were whiny about it! OK, Beecher could get kind of whiny, but more in an "I want to do good" way. Beecher always seemed to feel bad for his family rather than himself. And while he might have some blood on his hands, I think in some ways he was the most "innocent" guy in Oz... he really only lashed out to defend himself, or in one case, revenge for the murder of his kid (which he tried to take back). Alvarez blinded Rivera out of cowardice and an unwillingness to stand up to someone. And then he was always whining about how bad he felt for himself. He did get more tolerable towards the end of the show, but he'll never really be one of my favs.

I think he would have gotten out if he hadn't blinded Rivera. That act was pretty horrifying, and would probably set anyone against him who was considering clemency.

Well, Alvarez knew he was going to be in for a while, and Torquemada was pretty much throwing himself at him. Torquemada said he was a virgin, too, so who knows if they were even going to have sex.

Oh cool--thank you! He really sounds like an interesting guy, and I love hearing his and Meloni's perspectives on Beecher and Keller.

I think he was probably just exaggerating a bit, but referencing that Ryan had multiple female love interests, but never got it on with a guy.

The guy who played Peter was one of only two male characters who actually got raped on screen... the other one being Robson. Even with Beecher, what we saw was him getting the brand, not actually getting raped. So I imagine that was tough to play for those two guys. I wouldn't think a rape scene would be easy for anyone to play, male or female.

Threatening might not be the right word... dominant, perhaps. Just a way for Schillinger to drive the knife in and twist it before literally driving the knife in and twisting it... or so he would have thought. Beechball is my favorite nickname, too... creepy coming from Schillinger, though! Kind of wish it was from Keller, but Keller didn't really nickname Beecher, aside from calling him "Beech," which was pretty cute.

Yeah, you could definitely tell the educated prisoners from the ones who didn't have the same level of education, that's for sure.

Bushmalis made it look too easy. I'm sure he did feel betrayed, which is kind of ironic after he told Beecher he owed him his life for saving him from death row. I think he realized he was going to lose Beecher in the long run, and he couldn't live with that. He probably figured Beecher would eventually forgive him. I wonder if he would have--what do you think? Do you think Beecher would have come around eventually?

Keller was a sociopath, and they have a hard time with the concept of right and wrong. Which isn't to excuse Keller completely, but I do think some of the stuff Beecher said to him at the end of the episode was cruel. After years of being with Keller, he knew what Keller was capable of. And Beecher more or less accepted Keller's sociopathic behavior up to that point--he didn't turn Keller in for murdering the guys he slept with, he basically gave him the info that caused him to murder Ronnie, he let Keller take the blame for murdering Hank, and he got Keller off death row knowing he was guilty. It wasn't exactly fair of Beecher to turn around and be so surprised by the betrayal when he knew exactly what Keller was capable of, and had even benefitted from that in the past.

I actually thought that was pretty clever! It's kind of sad... he and Beecher really could have been together if he hadn't killed himself, and Beecher wasn't holding out. I tend to think Beecher would have given in eventually, that Keller could have won him back and that Beecher wouldn't have actually testified against him.

That's just sad. Hopefully those death sentences were overturned!

Oh, don't feel stupid... the show has been off the air for ages!

It was cool to see his story wrapped up. I need to watch the un-extended version... I'm curious to see if it's actually 100 minutes, and if so, what was left out of the extended version!

I feel the same--I need a new show to get hooked on! I miss Oz already... I really do think I might rewatch it this summer.

Agreed. The naked guys on this show are a definite plus. And my god, Christopher Meloni is a beautiful man. I'd never really noticed him one way or another before this show, but WOW... seriously impressive in every way.

Agreed, she was great in the same way Schillinger was great--a truly evil character who was enjoyable to watch, and made you squeamish sometimes. The actress did a great job with the role, but poor woman, I imagine she got hate mail!

Hahaha, I don't know if I'd call Keller "more feminine"... he never struck me as at all feminine, but I can see how some guys would choose him over Howell!

Agreed... she definitely seemed to be repeating a pattern that she witnessed growing up. It is interesting in that she turned into an abuser rather than the abused... definitely a different take, which I liked storywise. I actually saw her pregnancy, unwanted though it was, as her shot at redemption. She was talking Mukada about having to move out of her neighborhood because she thought the baby was probably Hispanic (presumably the result of her having sex with the guy who got sick in solitary and then was killed by the nurse after being spared by Guerra). The fact that she was concerned about the baby not being subjected to prejudice seemed a step in the right direction to me.

Probably, but I don't think it was pulled off well. I don't mind randomness in deaths, but this one was too random and out there for such an important character, IMO. It was also ironically not random enough... I mean, the guy came to prison to kill Said, but for a totally stupid reason.

I thought it was perfect--great symbolism with his relationship with Beecher and all that, and fitting. I thought the whole play thing was a little corny to begin with, but eh, it did pave the way for a great death for Vern, and for Beecher to do it and still be able to be innocent of it at the same time.