Should Americans be required to buy health insurance?

[TheLonelySquire]

And yet again you are wrong. If someone is able to provide for themselves yet for whatever reason chooses not to do so, and expects someone else to pay for their health insurance, they are indeed looking for a free ride.

So, let me get this straight. I, a proponent of UHC, tell you that I am not looking for a free ride. And you are telling me that I am wrong about my own motivations?

It has been reiterated over and over again, but the point of UHC is to make sure that everyone has access to care, which is not the case in the US, and that no one will go bankrupt because of necessary care to keep them alive, which is also not the case in the US. For you to constantly cast this as "slackers looking for a free ride" indicates that your understanding of both healthcare in the US and worldwide is severely limited at best.

If you are paying into a UHC system you would not be getting a free ride, of course. If you are NOT paying into it, you indeed would be. I don't know into which category you fall. And of course I wouldn't expect you to agree with me if it's the latter.

And I will agree with you that that is your interpretation of what this particular UHC bill is all about. I disagree completely, of course.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Portraying people who are proponents of UHC as "looking for a free ride" is, you guessed it, also dishonest.

And yet again you are wrong. If someone is able to provide for themselves yet for whatever reason chooses not to do so, and expects someone else to pay for their health insurance, they are indeed looking for a free ride. Sorry if that's not politically correct.

Which is where a tax on all income level comes in: Everyone pays, Everyone shares the burden. Only the extremely poor (homeless) would be getting "free" healthcare.

And before you bring it up, I fully support UHC and "Welfare to Work" programs designed to take the unemployed and under employed and transition them into job or better jobs through education and job retraining programs, rehab where needed, with a goal set of moving these people off other (non UHC) public assistance and making long term life style and income earning power changes.

Because many people will pay a big fat $0.00 into said program. Yet these people are able-bodied adults. Doesn't seem quite fair to me that people who have accomplished more get the bill for these folks. What do you think?

That's the breaks. But you have to address the issue of why they're not paying in: which is why, assume their drawing more than UHC, you get them into welfare-to-work programs. If you work, you pay the tax, period. Say a flat 3% of gross pay.

Or another way that gets every: 3% national sales tax on everything retail except prescription medicine.

Yeah, just what we need.... a VAT tax. Does it ever end?



***Oh Trip, I don't know the # of Americans looking for a free ride. But I have a suspicion it's # is somewhere in the millions.***

 

[SeerSGB]

And yet again you are wrong. If someone is able to provide for themselves yet for whatever reason chooses not to do so, and expects someone else to pay for their health insurance, they are indeed looking for a free ride. Sorry if that's not politically correct.

Which is where a tax on all income level comes in: Everyone pays, Everyone shares the burden. Only the extremely poor (homeless) would be getting "free" healthcare.

And before you bring it up, I fully support UHC and "Welfare to Work" programs designed to take the unemployed and under employed and transition them into job or better jobs through education and job retraining programs, rehab where needed, with a goal set of moving these people off other (non UHC) public assistance and making long term life style and income earning power changes.

Because many people will pay a big fat $0.00 into said program. Yet these people are able-bodied adults. Doesn't seem quite fair to me that people who have accomplished more get the bill for these folks. What do you think?

That's the breaks. But you have to address the issue of why they're not paying in: which is why, assume their drawing more than UHC, you get them into welfare-to-work programs. If you work, you pay the tax, period. Say a flat 3% of gross pay.

Or another way that gets every: 3% national sales tax on everything retail except prescription medicine.

Yeah, just what we need.... a VAT tax. Does it ever end?

Can't make a omlet unless you break a few eggs. Then again, I believe that we are undertaxed in the US. A 3% sales tax and/or even eliminating income tax refunds would go a long way towards fixing that problem.

 

[Misfit Toy]

***Oh Trip, I don't know the # of Americans looking for a free ride. But I have a suspicion it's # is somewhere in the millions.***

Since you'e the one making the claim, why don't you research that and get back to us?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Which is where a tax on all income level comes in: Everyone pays, Everyone shares the burden. Only the extremely poor (homeless) would be getting "free" healthcare.

And before you bring it up, I fully support UHC and "Welfare to Work" programs designed to take the unemployed and under employed and transition them into job or better jobs through education and job retraining programs, rehab where needed, with a goal set of moving these people off other (non UHC) public assistance and making long term life style and income earning power changes.

That's the breaks. But you have to address the issue of why they're not paying in: which is why, assume their drawing more than UHC, you get them into welfare-to-work programs. If you work, you pay the tax, period. Say a flat 3% of gross pay.

Or another way that gets every: 3% national sales tax on everything retail except prescription medicine.

Yeah, just what we need.... a VAT tax. Does it ever end?

Can't make a omlet unless you break a few eggs. Then again, I believe that we are undertaxed in the US. A 3% sales tax and/or even eliminating income tax refunds would go a long way towards fixing that problem.

We're undertaxed? How much of our income should go to taxes in your opinion?

 

[SeerSGB]

Yeah, just what we need.... a VAT tax. Does it ever end?

Can't make a omlet unless you break a few eggs. Then again, I believe that we are undertaxed in the US. A 3% sales tax and/or even eliminating income tax refunds would go a long way towards fixing that problem.

We're undertaxed? How much of our income should go to taxes in your opinion?

Minimum, minimum, of 16% in income tax, plus 3% national sales tax, and no tax refunds, and no deductions for marital status, only 1 deduction for kids (regardless of number), no dependent deduction, no deductions with the exception of medical and or work related expenses.

I've not claimed my tax refund in nearly 10 years, and haven't once used my marital status deductions of my tax returns.

 

[Arrqh]

If you are paying into a UHC system you would not be getting a free ride, of course. If you are NOT paying into it, you indeed would be. I don't know into which category you fall. And of course I wouldn't expect you to agree with me if it's the latter.

And how many people, would you say, in countries with UHC are truly getting a free ride? Percent-wise, of course. Lets see you use some real, hard data for a change to support your position.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

***Oh Trip, I don't know the # of Americans looking for a free ride. But I have a suspicion it's # is somewhere in the millions.***

Since you'e the one making the claim, why don't you research that and get back to us?

I'm sure they'll admit it.

It would be interesting to eventually know how many proponents here will end up paying for this program though.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

If you are paying into a UHC system you would not be getting a free ride, of course. If you are NOT paying into it, you indeed would be. I don't know into which category you fall. And of course I wouldn't expect you to agree with me if it's the latter.

And how many people, would you say, in countries with UHC are truly getting a free ride? Percent-wise, of course. Lets see you use some real, hard data for a change to support your position.

I'm not aware of who receives it at no cost in another country, nor do I care. What they do is of no concern to me. Sorry.

 

[Marc]

Which is where a tax on all income level comes in: Everyone pays, Everyone shares the burden. Only the extremely poor (homeless) would be getting "free" healthcare.

or you have people pay something like the Australian medicare levy which is 1.5% of your taxable income (so if you earn an income, pay tax, you pay the medicare levy)

So it's not a case of the people freeloading.

This is basicallly another stinking pile of bullshit claims by those who oppose UHC and frequently prove they absolutely have no fucking idea about it so resort to lies and mistruths about it.

But the really really galling bit it when their lies are are debunked but they insist on repeating them ad infinitum.

 

[Arrqh]

If you are paying into a UHC system you would not be getting a free ride, of course. If you are NOT paying into it, you indeed would be. I don't know into which category you fall. And of course I wouldn't expect you to agree with me if it's the latter.

And how many people, would you say, in countries with UHC are truly getting a free ride? Percent-wise, of course. Lets see you use some real, hard data for a change to support your position.

I'm not aware of who receives it at no cost in another country, nor do I care. What they do is of no concern to me. Sorry.

So you admit that you have zero evidence that UHC is an excuse for people to get free rides? As far as I'm concerned, you've essentially conceded the argument!

 

[SeerSGB]

If you are paying into a UHC system you would not be getting a free ride, of course. If you are NOT paying into it, you indeed would be. I don't know into which category you fall. And of course I wouldn't expect you to agree with me if it's the latter.

And how many people, would you say, in countries with UHC are truly getting a free ride? Percent-wise, of course. Lets see you use some real, hard data for a change to support your position.

Here's some numbers 3 million (estimated) homeless in America-- expected to climb in '010 going in '011 as a result of the depression.

Assuming they don't pay into the system (some homeless do have jobs, but we'll assume for the debate all 3 million are jobless), then you have out of a population of ~300 million only ~1% of "free riders".

Even if we doubled or tripled that number, we're still talking about a situation where you have more people paying in then not. And the drain by the non paying percentage being offset by those of the larger whole that didn't need as much medical care due to being healthier meaning they would spend less.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

And how many people, would you say, in countries with UHC are truly getting a free ride? Percent-wise, of course. Lets see you use some real, hard data for a change to support your position.

I'm not aware of who receives it at no cost in another country, nor do I care. What they do is of no concern to me. Sorry.

So you admit that you have zero evidence that UHC is an excuse for people to get free rides? As far as I'm concerned, you've essentially conceded the argument!

Will you be paying into this system? Just wondering.

 

[Misfit Toy]

***Oh Trip, I don't know the # of Americans looking for a free ride. But I have a suspicion it's # is somewhere in the millions.***

Since you'e the one making the claim, why don't you research that and get back to us?

I'm sure they'll admit it.

It would be interesting to eventually know how many proponents here will end up paying for this program though.

No - you're making the claim - tell us the number of people who will be receiving a "free ride" under the program in question.

 

[Arrqh]

I'm not aware of who receives it at no cost in another country, nor do I care. What they do is of no concern to me. Sorry.

So you admit that you have zero evidence that UHC is an excuse for people to get free rides? As far as I'm concerned, you've essentially conceded the argument!

Will you be paying into this system? Just wondering.

If you mean "do I pay my taxes" then yes, of course. Don't you? I therefore currently pay into the Canadian system and would be paying into a hypothetical US one if such a progressive program is implemented and I decide to move back, though the two are unrelated.

I fail to see what this has to do, however, with the fact that you have zero actual data to back up your argument.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I'm not aware of who receives it at no cost in another country, nor do I care. What they do is of no concern to me. Sorry.

So you admit that you have zero evidence that UHC is an excuse for people to get free rides? As far as I'm concerned, you've essentially conceded the argument!

Will you be paying into this system? Just wondering.

I would be. I've been paying for health insurance for years and I have always paid my taxes. I'm not one of the "free riders" you seem to be so concerned about, and I have said repeatedly that I support as close to a European-style system as we can get--one in which everyone who works pays a tax, and everyone gets the health care they need, without having to go bankrupt or otherwise stressing about how they'll pay for it.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

So you admit that you have zero evidence that UHC is an excuse for people to get free rides? As far as I'm concerned, you've essentially conceded the argument!

Will you be paying into this system? Just wondering.

If you mean "do I pay my taxes" then yes, of course. Don't you? I therefore currently pay into the Canadian system and would be paying into a hypothetical US one if such a progressive program is implemented and I decide to move back, though the two are unrelated.

I fail to see what this has to do, however, with the fact that you have zero actual data to back up your argument.

One doesn't need to provide data to make the statement that if someone pays nothing for something they are getting a free ride. Even in this corner of the galaxy two plus two equals four.

 

[ST-One]

I'd like to know if I can join a death panel, the first person I vote for is Sarah Palin and her whole family.

Wasn't she the one, during her time as governor of Alaska, who actually proposed a (very sensible) programme which would later be derided and defamed as 'death panels' by the Republicans and also herself?

 

[TheLonelySquire]

So you admit that you have zero evidence that UHC is an excuse for people to get free rides? As far as I'm concerned, you've essentially conceded the argument!

Will you be paying into this system? Just wondering.

I would be. I've been paying for health insurance for years and I have always paid my taxes. I'm not one of the "free riders" you seem to be so concerned about, and I have said repeatedly that I support as close to a European-style system as we can get--one in which everyone who works pays a tax, and everyone gets the health care they need, without having to go bankrupt or otherwise stressing about how they'll pay for it.

Well, I question the federal government requiring citizens to purchase a product or face imprisonment. Doesn't seem very American to me.

 

[Arrqh]

Will you be paying into this system? Just wondering.

If you mean "do I pay my taxes" then yes, of course. Don't you? I therefore currently pay into the Canadian system and would be paying into a hypothetical US one if such a progressive program is implemented and I decide to move back, though the two are unrelated.

I fail to see what this has to do, however, with the fact that you have zero actual data to back up your argument.

One doesn't need to provide data to make the statement that if someone pays nothing for something they are getting a free ride. Even in this corner of the galaxy two plus two equals four.

Huh?

If the US implemented UHC tomorrow, I would not be paying into it. I would also not be using it. This does not constitute a free ride. If I decided to move back to the US, I would be using it. And also paying into it. This does not constitute a free ride. This is all very simple. What about it do you not understand? I'd be perfectly happy to walk you through it again if you are having difficulty with it.