You_Guyz
Commander
Well Kes has a different outlook on life than others due to her age, this could make her good at doling out life help!
Who Should Have Left in Season Four?
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
Well Kes has a different outlook on life than others due to her age, this could make her good at doling out life help!
I remember "Gracie" on The nanny seemed wise when she would pretend to be a therapist regurgitating all the psychobabble they'd laid down on that 6 year old with, but watching her bare chested punching Fox Mulder in the jaw mid coitus in the Californication pilot: I cried for the death of innocence even if it's just an actress collecting a wage.
That being that, I did't actually lose any respect for Madeline for prostituting herself until she started cashing paychecks for whatever the hell they call it that she's doing on "Heroes".
Kids have a nice outlook but one assumes that counsellors can write drug prescriptions for patients, and that's a huge wad of responsibility Kes wouldn't be ready for until they was at least 4, and if she had been given Suder to examine/ could she have committed him or pharmaceutically neutered the poor bastard.
That being that, I did't actually lose any respect for Madeline for prostituting herself until she started cashing paychecks for whatever the hell they call it that she's doing on "Heroes".
Kids have a nice outlook but one assumes that counsellors can write drug prescriptions for patients, and that's a huge wad of responsibility Kes wouldn't be ready for until they was at least 4, and if she had been given Suder to examine/ could she have committed him or pharmaceutically neutered the poor bastard.
Noone should have left. VOY had a larger budget than DS9 and still DS9 didn't get rid of any characters.
If anyone though it should've been Neelix, he was useless after Fair trade and I didn't see any character developement at all in the later seasons. I realy liked Kes as well
. There wasn't much for Kim either but at least he had potential...
If anyone though it should've been Neelix, he was useless after Fair trade and I didn't see any character developement at all in the later seasons. I realy liked Kes as well
. There wasn't much for Kim either but at least he had potential...
i beg to differ. neelix was pretty much restricted to comic relief from season 4 onward, and almost only in subplots. as far as i recall, only the 'haunting of deck 12' had him in a major role. kim did some seriously senior stuff, in 'timeless' and 'workforce'. probanly more, i just don't remember at the moment.
i liked them both a lot in 'prophecy', where neelix helped kim to get rid off the klingon woman. patakh!
Neelix had the major role in Mortal Coil, Once Upon a Time, Riddles, The Haunting of Deck Twelve and Homestead, while Kim had the major role in Timeless, The Disease, Ashes to Ashes and Nightingale. The only time I can remember either one playing another major role in seasons 4-7 was as part of an ensemble episode such as Course: Oblivion and Workforce, which you mentioned.
I accidentally posted this at the wrong thread 
so here it is now where it should have been:
I voted Neelix, but since he became less annoying in the later seasons, I think it should have been Chakotay, who was just useless at this point and didn't evoke any feelings but complete indifference on my part.
OTOH, Neelix became less annoying when he was not around Kes, so... maybe he would have still been as irritating if she had still been around? Or, maybe not, since she had dumped him, perhaps he would've been tolerable if he remained dumped.
so here it is now where it should have been:I voted Neelix, but since he became less annoying in the later seasons, I think it should have been Chakotay, who was just useless at this point and didn't evoke any feelings but complete indifference on my part.
OTOH, Neelix became less annoying when he was not around Kes, so... maybe he would have still been as irritating if she had still been around? Or, maybe not, since she had dumped him, perhaps he would've been tolerable if he remained dumped.
VOY didn't really need to get rid of anyone. As other posters have already pointed out, DS9 was able to provide adequate screen time for a much larger canvas of main and secondary characters. At the very least, whichever character that TPTB chose to cut could have been reduced to a recurring capacity instead of dropped from the series altogether.
Anyways, if someone had to go, my vote is for Neelix. The character was brought on-board to serve a few functions. First and foremost, he served as the weekly reminder to the audience that this is Star Trek and that Voyager is stuck on the other side of the galaxy. There seemed to be a mandate with Trek that there must be at least one alien character in heavy makeup for each series (TNG had Worf, DS9 had Odo and Quark, VOY had Neelix and ENT had Phlox). Neelix was the token weird alien. Being a native to the Delta Quadrant also allowed him to serve as a tour guide and ambassador for the ship. He knew more about that region of space than Janeway or the rest of the crew, so his knowledge was helpful to them. Lastly, Neelix served as the cook, which allowed for a little more comedy.
However, by the time Voyager had entered Borg space in "Scorpion" and the character of Seven of Nine was introduced, Neelix had been reduced to comic relief. He wasn't really useful anymore. Voyager had entered a region of space that was foreign even to him. His role as advisor and ambassador was over. The closer the ship got to the alpha quadrant, the less useful Neelix would be. Thus, he would be the ideal character to leave.
There was much more untapped potential in the character of Kes.
Anyways, if someone had to go, my vote is for Neelix. The character was brought on-board to serve a few functions. First and foremost, he served as the weekly reminder to the audience that this is Star Trek and that Voyager is stuck on the other side of the galaxy. There seemed to be a mandate with Trek that there must be at least one alien character in heavy makeup for each series (TNG had Worf, DS9 had Odo and Quark, VOY had Neelix and ENT had Phlox). Neelix was the token weird alien. Being a native to the Delta Quadrant also allowed him to serve as a tour guide and ambassador for the ship. He knew more about that region of space than Janeway or the rest of the crew, so his knowledge was helpful to them. Lastly, Neelix served as the cook, which allowed for a little more comedy.
However, by the time Voyager had entered Borg space in "Scorpion" and the character of Seven of Nine was introduced, Neelix had been reduced to comic relief. He wasn't really useful anymore. Voyager had entered a region of space that was foreign even to him. His role as advisor and ambassador was over. The closer the ship got to the alpha quadrant, the less useful Neelix would be. Thus, he would be the ideal character to leave.
There was much more untapped potential in the character of Kes.
(You really shouldn't set the conversation up like that.)
I totally agree, someone should have tapped Kes.
I totally agree, someone should have tapped Kes.
Kes was a mad choice. Even my nine year old child said the other day 'Why on earth did they get rid of Kes? I like Kes! They wouldn't've done that if it had been based on a book that was already written, like Star Wars'!
Changing just because some magazine liked the look of Harry seems stupid. Though I have to say I don't hate him like a lot of you seem to, I don't want rid of him either. But definitely not Kes. Far too interesting a character. I've been watching some season two again and that's what smacks me in the face when I see her.
Seven did grown on me though, I moved to season two from season six and I'm missing her! Never thought I'd say that.
Changing just because some magazine liked the look of Harry seems stupid. Though I have to say I don't hate him like a lot of you seem to, I don't want rid of him either. But definitely not Kes. Far too interesting a character. I've been watching some season two again and that's what smacks me in the face when I see her.
Seven did grown on me though, I moved to season two from season six and I'm missing her! Never thought I'd say that.
wow us trekers/trekies are passionate people hey
well I have just watched the entire series again for the umteenth time and well I still stick by my first post (but maybe not every season)
Why not "get rid of" Harry in the first year and bring in that Vidian woman doctor or a Kazon to go into the next season
Or Janeway/Paris's offspring evolve into something human and keep them on board and that anoying smartass Naomi could have died a horrible death in a Borg chamber or something
Oh and what a tragedy it was that Seska died (or did she) now she was a villian (why did she die anyway does anyone know)
was she just written out ?
anyway my point is that and I can understand that viewers become attached to cast members and changing that can be disasterous for a series
but throw a spanner in next time shake it up a little will we ever see the day when we have 2 series to look forward to ..........well for now id settle for 1 pleaseeeeeeeeee
Im in need for a new Star Trek fix
here's a question to ponder since Seven was in a Materation Chamber since she was 5 does that make her a Virgin?
well I have just watched the entire series again for the umteenth time and well I still stick by my first post (but maybe not every season)
Why not "get rid of" Harry in the first year and bring in that Vidian woman doctor or a Kazon to go into the next season
Or Janeway/Paris's offspring evolve into something human and keep them on board and that anoying smartass Naomi could have died a horrible death in a Borg chamber or something
Oh and what a tragedy it was that Seska died (or did she) now she was a villian (why did she die anyway does anyone know)
was she just written out ?
anyway my point is that and I can understand that viewers become attached to cast members and changing that can be disasterous for a series
but throw a spanner in next time shake it up a little will we ever see the day when we have 2 series to look forward to ..........well for now id settle for 1 pleaseeeeeeeeee
Im in need for a new Star Trek fix
here's a question to ponder since Seven was in a Materation Chamber since she was 5 does that make her a Virgin?
You_Guyz
Commander
Erm, are you really sure you need to ASK?
Well it makes sense that Seska's storyline needed to be resolved. To be honest, it was sloppy of the writers to have Seska and Cullah keep returning, since Voyager should be warping it far away from their space. This was one of the big flaws with Voyager, the sense that they are travelling in circles rather than a direct course.
Why? That corner of the galaxy was backward. No one had an empire to speak of. Traveling beyond the confines of their own worlds just seemed arduous, and that is why the bulging, flexing, pulsating, roving, clinging frontiers of all the intertwined competing kazon empires were able to thrive so well oozing inbetween cultures bragging technology so entirely more sophisticated than the steam boats the kazon were toot toot tugging around in because no bugger could bother dealing with them, or wasting a torpedo.
There are hobos raping each other to keep warm just a hundred feet from your front stoop, but as long as your gas main is running, and your tivo is juicing you, it's too much stress to wander out into the cold to deal with the wretches who don't want your help and fortunately won't be seen later in the light of day.
It only took a year to get though the most mighty Krenim empire Annorax could fathom with the totality of his imagination and god like ability to manipulate time and space, but the stark simple reality of Seska and Kullah's reach was two years.
Besides.
Anyone gets too big and the Borg knock them down.
The Borg, the natural predator therein, will not knock down the kazon and that is why the Kazon seep and spread like cancer... They are Borg-impervious, an immunity all the other cultures in any Quadrant don't have a hope of embracing though excellence and evolution and pulling up their game by their bootstraps just making what they got all the more attractive to the Borg, because you only get into space if you don't suck.
I suppose I'm talking about the Pakled too.
There are hobos raping each other to keep warm just a hundred feet from your front stoop, but as long as your gas main is running, and your tivo is juicing you, it's too much stress to wander out into the cold to deal with the wretches who don't want your help and fortunately won't be seen later in the light of day.
It only took a year to get though the most mighty Krenim empire Annorax could fathom with the totality of his imagination and god like ability to manipulate time and space, but the stark simple reality of Seska and Kullah's reach was two years.
Besides.
Anyone gets too big and the Borg knock them down.
The Borg, the natural predator therein, will not knock down the kazon and that is why the Kazon seep and spread like cancer... They are Borg-impervious, an immunity all the other cultures in any Quadrant don't have a hope of embracing though excellence and evolution and pulling up their game by their bootstraps just making what they got all the more attractive to the Borg, because you only get into space if you don't suck.
I suppose I'm talking about the Pakled too.
getting rid of kes was the right thing,but then getting rid of neelix or harry would have be better
You_Guyz
Commander
Contradictory much?
Having an ice cream is the right thing to do. Having an ice cream with with cherry syrup and chocolate chips and mixed nuts is more right.
usually at this point in a successful show, one of the characters is asked to leave to star in a spin off satellite show.
The kes Show?
I would have watched that.
usually at this point in a successful show, one of the characters is asked to leave to star in a spin off satellite show.
The kes Show?
I would have watched that.
Having started re-watching Voyager the whole way through I've had time to think carefully about this one. There's a lot of Harry hate out there (no, Harry Hate is not his stage name when he performs clarinet arias in Sandrine's), but I think I need to go on a wee small rant (being as I'm in the mood for one), and I'm interested to see who agrees with me.
First up, in seasons 1 & 2 there have been a butt load of episodes where, far from doing nothing, Harry Kim does everything. Saves the ship, keeps the coffee from going cold, creeps to the Captain and generally has the whole plot revolve around him. He keeps doing it further into the series as well, in fact much of the problem solving comes from the Janeway/Torres/Kim power combo (and later just Seven of Nine on occasion as well), unless it requires shooting things in which case Paris and Tuvok handle it, or singing, in which case we all know Il Doctore has it more than covered.
So here's the big question.
In seasons 4 through 7, what the bloody hell does Neelix do? Gets on my tits is what. Having sympathized with Tuvok a great deal when he attempted to choke a holographic version of him to death in the Holodeck (that was pure television catharsis) I just don't honestly see what use he was to the crew other than doing a bit of cooking here and there, representing the portion of the crew that appeals to the tranche of fans that would be the sort to like Jar Jar Binks, and providing the comic relief every now and again.
I suppose you could say that his aiding Seven to become more human might hit the list. Fair dos. However, surely that's what Janeway was for. And I think Chakotay definitely had a good go at helping her "become more human" if you'll excuse the slightly obvious joke.
One thing's for sure - he wasn't there to guide the sodding ship. How do I know that? Well, because I personally doubt that any one person can know the entirety of a quadrant inside and out due to the large amount of time it would take to travel from one end of it to the other. After Kes moved the Voyager 10,000 LY to deus ex them out of Borg space (so that they'd still be able to have new Borgy stuff in S7) Neelix's usefulness was logically over. So bye bye baby. Find another Deus Ex to get 'em out of hot water/nanoprobes and kosh the gimp.
Moving to a more logical perspective, it seems that the entirety of the decision of the cast change was based around sex appeal. I have my emergency kit ready, so shoot me down in flames on that one if you want to, but the whole "appealing to 25ish year old males" was the idea of the change from what I can fathom. Therefore, replacing an attractive female actress with another attractive female actress with bigger breasts seems to have been a little bit of a dodgy decision, unless it was based purely on testosterone on the part of the execs. Bear in mind this followed a decision to keep Garrett Wang because of his appearance in the top 50 most beautiful people, and you can see that that made them think "Ah, let's bear in mind the 25ish year old women too".
If they REALLY wanted to make the call like that then to be honest keeping Kes and Harry would have been a great idea. Firstly because there would have been two ladies for the guys to drool over and one guy for the ladies to drool over, following the casting director's logic. Secondly because I'm 100% sure that Kes would have added another dimension to any confrontations with the Borg. Have they encountered the Ocampa before, and how are they going to counter their telekinesis.
Not how are they going to stomach the Leola root stew...
First up, in seasons 1 & 2 there have been a butt load of episodes where, far from doing nothing, Harry Kim does everything. Saves the ship, keeps the coffee from going cold, creeps to the Captain and generally has the whole plot revolve around him. He keeps doing it further into the series as well, in fact much of the problem solving comes from the Janeway/Torres/Kim power combo (and later just Seven of Nine on occasion as well), unless it requires shooting things in which case Paris and Tuvok handle it, or singing, in which case we all know Il Doctore has it more than covered.
So here's the big question.
In seasons 4 through 7, what the bloody hell does Neelix do? Gets on my tits is what. Having sympathized with Tuvok a great deal when he attempted to choke a holographic version of him to death in the Holodeck (that was pure television catharsis) I just don't honestly see what use he was to the crew other than doing a bit of cooking here and there, representing the portion of the crew that appeals to the tranche of fans that would be the sort to like Jar Jar Binks, and providing the comic relief every now and again.
I suppose you could say that his aiding Seven to become more human might hit the list. Fair dos. However, surely that's what Janeway was for. And I think Chakotay definitely had a good go at helping her "become more human" if you'll excuse the slightly obvious joke.
One thing's for sure - he wasn't there to guide the sodding ship. How do I know that? Well, because I personally doubt that any one person can know the entirety of a quadrant inside and out due to the large amount of time it would take to travel from one end of it to the other. After Kes moved the Voyager 10,000 LY to deus ex them out of Borg space (so that they'd still be able to have new Borgy stuff in S7) Neelix's usefulness was logically over. So bye bye baby. Find another Deus Ex to get 'em out of hot water/nanoprobes and kosh the gimp.
Moving to a more logical perspective, it seems that the entirety of the decision of the cast change was based around sex appeal. I have my emergency kit ready, so shoot me down in flames on that one if you want to, but the whole "appealing to 25ish year old males" was the idea of the change from what I can fathom. Therefore, replacing an attractive female actress with another attractive female actress with bigger breasts seems to have been a little bit of a dodgy decision, unless it was based purely on testosterone on the part of the execs. Bear in mind this followed a decision to keep Garrett Wang because of his appearance in the top 50 most beautiful people, and you can see that that made them think "Ah, let's bear in mind the 25ish year old women too".
If they REALLY wanted to make the call like that then to be honest keeping Kes and Harry would have been a great idea. Firstly because there would have been two ladies for the guys to drool over and one guy for the ladies to drool over, following the casting director's logic. Secondly because I'm 100% sure that Kes would have added another dimension to any confrontations with the Borg. Have they encountered the Ocampa before, and how are they going to counter their telekinesis.
Not how are they going to stomach the Leola root stew...
Definitely
Not sure I relate it to Kes Neelix and Harry though, but ice cream rocks so that's ok 
Lol yes, great stuff. And, much as I don't engage in 'Harry Hate', I think the guy's ok, I have to admit it would be far more appealing than the 'Harry Kim show'.
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