So, Babylon 5 on FX (UK), why not?
- Thread starter Kegg
- Start date
Yup. I stole that joke from David Langford, but it's too good not to use.
RE: Neroon
I was thinking along the lines of, "We're all pawns, m'dear."
But I've been on a bender of The Prisoner since I got my hands on the Blu-Ray set. Which is where JMS, er, aquired Bester's wonderfully chilling, "Be seeing you, Mr. Garibaldi." And, of course, where Ron Moore stole "Number Six" from.
RE: Kegg
Did you tag this thread "obnoxious rants?"
I was thinking along the lines of, "We're all pawns, m'dear."
But I've been on a bender of The Prisoner since I got my hands on the Blu-Ray set. Which is where JMS, er, aquired Bester's wonderfully chilling, "Be seeing you, Mr. Garibaldi." And, of course, where Ron Moore stole "Number Six" from.
RE: Kegg
Did you tag this thread "obnoxious rants?"
I really enjoyed JMS's allusions/stealing from The Prisoner, 1984, and, of course, a little opus that an Oxford don scribbled out some years back. It gave the work the sort of literary weight JMS expected from it at times; though his gift for character speeches was also a major factor in that success.
Guilty as charged!RE: Kegg
Did you tag this thread "obnoxious rants?"
They were also convenient to the backstory. Winning the Dilgar War is how the Earth Alliance, who'd been on the scene shorter than anyone, including the Narn and the LoNAW, became one of the five big-dick major governments of the galaxy.
While that's certainly true (and In the Beginning is great, looking forward to rewatching that - if FX doesn't replay it I'll just break out the DVD) - is the Earth Alliance really shorter on the scene than the Narn? I'm pretty sure "The Gathering" outright states that the Narn are the youngest of the major powers.
The Narn may have had more prolonged exposure to galactic politics because of the whole, er, Centauri occupation, though.
It's ambiguous. The Gathering has G'Kar say the Narn are the youngest race (but, then, he also assumes the Minbari are older than the Vorlons in the same line), but "Midnight on the Firing Line" says they had an interstellar colony on Ragesh III before the Centuari occupation. I assume they'd been out in space a wee little bit before the Centuari found them. I can't remember off-hand when the occupation ended, though. It was during G'Kar's life-time, but I seem to recall that Narn were supposed to be long-lived, so that's not really helpful. I remember one of the asides in the B5 Security Manual had Garibaldi talking about Earth buying a jumpgate from the Centuari, and that they'd had to give them Australia (negotiated down from Africa) for a colony in exchange, but that Earth shortly after made contact with the Narn and found out everything the Centuari had told them about their grand empire was a pack of lies. The Centuari were so embarrassed they gave back Australia and Earth got the jumpgate for free. But, then, that's also of dubious canonicity (I also recall one of the police reports in the back mentioning Londo once killed a guy during a drunk and disorderly, for instance, but got off with diplomatic immunity (as with the other dozen or so drunk and disorderlies he had where no one died), so take that into account).
Anyway, the point is, Earth and Narn were roughly contemporaries, but the Narn did have all those secondhand Centauri guns, so between that and the fact that they were with the Dilgar and not getting reamed by them with the rest of the pissant races, I'll still say they were ahead of the Earth Alliance before that War, at least on paper.
Anyway, the point is, Earth and Narn were roughly contemporaries, but the Narn did have all those secondhand Centauri guns, so between that and the fact that they were with the Dilgar and not getting reamed by them with the rest of the pissant races, I'll still say they were ahead of the Earth Alliance before that War, at least on paper.
Fair enough.
Though as far as the Dilgar goes I still want to know how the Narn could collaborate with the Dilgar but still the Dilgar apparently got away with oblierating an (apparently) Narn world full of Na'Toth's family members. Did the Narn just turn a blind eye to that atrocity or what?
Though as far as the Dilgar goes I still want to know how the Narn could collaborate with the Dilgar but still the Dilgar apparently got away with oblierating an (apparently) Narn world full of Na'Toth's family members. Did the Narn just turn a blind eye to that atrocity or what?
Yeah, I wouldn't trust the Security Manual as a reliable source of information. There's a load of "fluff" entries, some stuf that refers to the early non-canon novels (written by the same author of the manual as I recall) and some info that seams to have been sourced from early, pre-retcon background notes.
As for the Narn, there is some indications that they weren't as primitive as the Centauri said they were (surprise surprise) like the previous colony claim to Ragesh III and...
[spoiler ]...as I recall (perhaps incorrectly) G'Kar being able to determine the location of Z'ha'dum from the book of G'Quan. I tend to think that the Narn got to a post industrial level of civilisation around the time of the first Shadow War and when the Shadows wiped out the telepaths and the ensuing Vorlon backed counterstrike it sent them into a bit of a dark age and by the time the Centauri showed up they were just getting back into space. At least that's my take.
In addition to that I think it's some where in the Psi-Corps books that races with telepaths usually have them manifest around the time thta races starts to develop space travel, the the fact that the Narns had telepaths 1000 years ago might point to their already being a minor space faring race at that time too.
In addition to that I think it's some where in the Psi-Corps books that races with telepaths usually have them manifest around the time thta races starts to develop space travel, the the fact that the Narns had telepaths 1000 years ago might point to their already being a minor space faring race at that time too.
I'd always assumed the Vicker was a Centauri thing. A rare being that there used to be a lot of but the tech has since been lost.
As for "Jack".
I've often wondered if he was the Vorlon equivalent of a technomage. He certainly had a few tricks that looked like technomancy - the disappearing and re-appearing on the other side of the room gag for one and his staff did seam to be a control mechanism of sorts.
That doesn't fit with what was in the episode.
G'Kar: I would like to remind the council that before the Centauri Republic invaded our sector and began their hundred year reign of terror, Ragesh III was a Narn colony. Now that we are free of the invaders, it is our right to reclaim it!
Delenn: We recognize the prior claim, but the reality is that Ragesh III has been Centauri property for over a century.
Now, I can see G'Kar, especially early season 1 G'Kar, bullshitting about a mythical Narn colony from before they even had spaceships, but Delenn wouldn't concede the point unless there was something to it. And thanks to that...
G'Kar: I would like to remind the council that before the Centauri Republic invaded our sector and began their hundred year reign of terror, Ragesh III was a Narn colony. Now that we are free of the invaders, it is our right to reclaim it!
Delenn: We recognize the prior claim, but the reality is that Ragesh III has been Centauri property for over a century.
Now, I can see G'Kar, especially early season 1 G'Kar, bullshitting about a mythical Narn colony from before they even had spaceships, but Delenn wouldn't concede the point unless there was something to it. And thanks to that...
jms said:
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So, "Believers". When I first watched Babylon 5, this was the episode that really raised the bar for me. It broached a serious ethical problem from a fairly complex standpoint, had a knockout downer of an ending (a surprising twist to me, who was so used to the often pat Trek solution), and showed that by god, that Richard Biggs guy could really carry an episode.
I felt so then and I still feel so now. Sure, it's a trifle on the nose in its commentary with characters sitting around hitting the main talking points, but such is television and such also especially is B5, which will not imply when it can speechify. Then as now and to its credit, "Believers" is never interested in the easy answer - Sinclair's problem seems as pertinent to that as Franklin's. The realpolitik, the nature of belief, the importance of life, and also a bit of industrial goo which serves as (of all things) David Gerrold's shout-out to a furry nuisance he created for an episode of some other TV series.
This is one of the strongest episodes this season and knocks its previous episodes right out of the water. While it's generally true B5 is better with its arc material, this is definitely one of the show's good standalone episodes.
Granted, Kosh is beginning to grate something. 'What if you were operated on?' The aliens ask. 'Er, I was', replies Kosh, only he does so with some Darmok and Jilad at Tanagra panache. Since he's not a Tamarian and it's pretty clear he understands us, this time around Kosh is striking me more and more as a guy who just loves bulshitting and acting all mysterious, rather than an ethereal, otherworldly alien. We'll see how that lower opinion pans out.
"Survivors" is a solid enough character piece for Garibaldi / arc piece, I have comparatively little to say about that. I do like the "Drunk again, Uncle Mike?" bit, though some of the writing may also be a trifle pat, and a guest star should know better than to point a gun at an unarmed main character, it never ends well.
"By Any Means Necessary" airs tonight, some views on that (or not).
I felt so then and I still feel so now. Sure, it's a trifle on the nose in its commentary with characters sitting around hitting the main talking points, but such is television and such also especially is B5, which will not imply when it can speechify. Then as now and to its credit, "Believers" is never interested in the easy answer - Sinclair's problem seems as pertinent to that as Franklin's. The realpolitik, the nature of belief, the importance of life, and also a bit of industrial goo which serves as (of all things) David Gerrold's shout-out to a furry nuisance he created for an episode of some other TV series.
This is one of the strongest episodes this season and knocks its previous episodes right out of the water. While it's generally true B5 is better with its arc material, this is definitely one of the show's good standalone episodes.
Granted, Kosh is beginning to grate something. 'What if you were operated on?' The aliens ask. 'Er, I was', replies Kosh, only he does so with some Darmok and Jilad at Tanagra panache. Since he's not a Tamarian and it's pretty clear he understands us, this time around Kosh is striking me more and more as a guy who just loves bulshitting and acting all mysterious, rather than an ethereal, otherworldly alien. We'll see how that lower opinion pans out.
"Survivors" is a solid enough character piece for Garibaldi / arc piece, I have comparatively little to say about that. I do like the "Drunk again, Uncle Mike?" bit, though some of the writing may also be a trifle pat, and a guest star should know better than to point a gun at an unarmed main character, it never ends well.
"By Any Means Necessary" airs tonight, some views on that (or not).
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A fair assumption, but if she was so important to Garibaldi, you'd think it would have come up at some point. JMS even says it will come up at some point in an online post, although I can't seem to find it now. Perhaps Jan or someone who knows the database there better can uncover it (or explain to me that my memory is just wrong).
EDIT: Here it is, on the Guide Page for Chrysalis
EDIT: Here it is, on the Guide Page for Chrysalis
Have we learned the fate of Garibaldi's friend Lianna Kemmer, from "Survivors?" Was she on Santiago's ship?
No, we haven't established what happened to her, but we will in time.
I have a feeling that it may be one of those things that JMS meant to revisit but either forgot or never found the opportunity.
I wasn't terribly happy with the way Garibaldi seemed to get over his drinking binge at first but it's not an unusual occurrance for alcoholics, actually, for there to be a short binge and then long sobriety. I think the episode's writer had wanted it handled more seriously, too, if I recall the script book introduction correctly.
Jan
I tend to agree with this. I think Kosh got the assigment at B5 because he genuinely wanted it, and most other Vorlons genuinely didn't. He's the wild-eyed, adventurous hippy in a culture of old fuddy duddies. He also has a mischevious sense of humor and, like you said, plays up the mysterious alien role, not only because the Vorlons are big on secrecy, but because he has fun with it. I also think, unlike the other Vorlons, he genuinely likes being around other species and learning what he can from them. He is the Vorlon equivalent of a "people person".
While Kosh is certainly more open minded and "liberal" than most other Vorlons like Ulkesh, I'd hardly call him an adventurous hippy.
I would agree though that he is on B5 because he wanted to be there and in his way he did genuinely care about the younger races. As for a sense of humour...I'd say it's impossible to tell with a Vorlon. They're just not wired the same way and anything they communicate can only be a very rough and simplistic translation of what those musical chirps actually mean. Vorlons don't talk cryptically to be secretive. When they don't want someone to know something they just don't say anything (as evidenced on several occasions.) I tend to think the perceived obliqueness is at least in part a result of it being an effort for a Vorlon to even think down to our level. To coin G'Kar's analogy, it'd be like talking to an ant, or at the very most a concussed ferret.
As for the fate of Kemmer, I think it's even money whether she was on EF1 or not. There's certainly a precedent for her travelling ahead so it's not certain she was there when it blew and I'm sure there are a ton of stories that we never heard of and yet took place in the five years. I can think of several examples off the top of my head; What did General Franklin do during the EA Civil War? How did N'Grath go down? Where did Lou Welch disappear to? Why did everyone suddenly stop going to Earhart's every week? If it weren't for 'City of Sorrows' then "what the hell happened to Sakai" would be on that list too.
I would agree though that he is on B5 because he wanted to be there and in his way he did genuinely care about the younger races. As for a sense of humour...I'd say it's impossible to tell with a Vorlon. They're just not wired the same way and anything they communicate can only be a very rough and simplistic translation of what those musical chirps actually mean. Vorlons don't talk cryptically to be secretive. When they don't want someone to know something they just don't say anything (as evidenced on several occasions.) I tend to think the perceived obliqueness is at least in part a result of it being an effort for a Vorlon to even think down to our level. To coin G'Kar's analogy, it'd be like talking to an ant, or at the very most a concussed ferret.
As for the fate of Kemmer, I think it's even money whether she was on EF1 or not. There's certainly a precedent for her travelling ahead so it's not certain she was there when it blew and I'm sure there are a ton of stories that we never heard of and yet took place in the five years. I can think of several examples off the top of my head; What did General Franklin do during the EA Civil War? How did N'Grath go down? Where did Lou Welch disappear to? Why did everyone suddenly stop going to Earhart's every week? If it weren't for 'City of Sorrows' then "what the hell happened to Sakai" would be on that list too.
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