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So have things really changed

Right, I am no longer in the mood for this. Go away and read Alias and then come back to me and tell me their relationship is a stereotype. Until then, I'm done here.

You are completely missing the point aren't you. Step out of the fictional world that they live in and look in the real world that you live in. I will trade you. I will read Alias but I want you to research how many powerful and famous African Americans are married to someone that is white. Then come back and talk to me.
 
^No, you're missing my point which is that I don't care.

If a man is stupid enough to fall in to the marriage trap in the first place then I don't give a fuck who they get married to. This thread was supposed to be about the presentation of black comic book characters in movies based on them.
 
Kirk's_Tights

How about you just answer my question? Tell me what about Clark Kent makes it so he has to be a white guy? I mean tell me one single thing? I think it is a simple enough question when you say it will completely change him into another character.

Again where is the outrage when the other characters race is changed if you feel that strongly about it.

And we are talking about fictional characters here not real people. I think that is the point you are missing. If you are telling the story over from the beginning not seeing the problem. I have cited countless examples of works throughout time that have been told in different ways. You ignore those.

You are also using the argument that since I am married to a person of X race/culture, then I could not possibly be racist in my thinking. I like X character and they are of this race/culture so I could not possible be a racist. That can work both ways. Some of my favorite characters are Superman, Captain America, Thor, Goku and Iron Man. One of my least favorite is Storm.

And when I said superheroes, I was talking on the big screen not in comics. If you are including manga with American comics then I know you know more heroes than I do.

Also you just admitted that Eartha Kitt was a good Catwoman, just not the one you knew and I think that is the point in a nutshell. For people that like science fiction and fantasy most sure expand their imaginations much.

I answered your question 400 times. Jesus, I have never met anyone so dense before.

Ugh, you don't get the point about Eartha. It doesn't matter if they are good at the role or not, IT'S THE FACT THAT SHE ISN'T SELINA KYLE, SHE IS JUST SOME BLACK CHICK WITH THE NAME SLAPPED ONTO HER.

This is so easy to comprehend.


Halle Berry is black and is involved with a white guy. SHE IS A FAMOUS AFRICAN AMERICAN, OMG.
 
Black people by definition always want to 'move up' by being associated with white people. It's a fact. Why else didn't Michael Jackson ever date a black woman? Why did Tiger Woods marry a white woman? Why did Steve Mcnair go after a white woman when he could have with a black one? Why did Ashley Cole marry Cheryl Cole? Countless other successful black men have always wanted a white woman! Let's get real people! We whites are in demand more than any other race, even to black people!

Galactus
To answer your question, changing the race of a character changes everything about that character. Yes, Superman could have been a black child from Afripton. He could have landed in the ghetto and got raised by a single black mother, who named him LaShawn Kentucky-Fried-Chicken. The child could grow up to be an exploitative muthafucka' and wreck havoc on 'dem white ass crackas!'. Bustin' cops and beating up white CEO's would be his specialty! And you'd love it, wouldn't you? :lol:


**This post was made to show Galactus how stupid his reasoning is. Yes I know Clark Kent could be a black man and still have the same values as the current Superman. But he hasn't even once answered why he needs to be changed in the first place? Why not just create a new black superhero? Hancock certainly wasn't a flop! If anything it made more than Superman Returns. If you are gonna change the race of a very well established character then why not create a brand spanking new one??
 
Black people by definition always want to 'move up' by being associated with white people. It's a fact. Why else didn't Michael Jackson ever date a black woman? Why did Tiger Woods marry a white woman? Why did Steve Mcnair go after a white woman when he could have with a black one? Why did Ashley Cole marry Cheryl Cole? Countless other successful black men have always wanted a white woman! Let's get real people! We whites are in demand more than any other race, even to black people!

Galactus
To answer your question, changing the race of a character changes everything about that character. Yes, Superman could have been a black child from Afripton. He could have landed in the ghetto and got raised by a single black mother, who named him LaShawn Kentucky-Fried-Chicken. The child could grow up to be an exploitative muthafucka' and wreck havoc on 'dem white ass crackas!'. Bustin' cops and beating up white CEO's would be his specialty! And you'd love it, wouldn't you? :lol:


**This post was made to show Galactus how stupid his reasoning is. Yes I know Clark Kent could be a black man and still have the same values as the current Superman. But he hasn't even once answered why he needs to be changed in the first place? Why not just create a new black superhero? Hancock certainly wasn't a flop! If anything it made more than Superman Returns. If you are gonna change the race of a very well established character then why not create a brand spanking new one??


I love you.
 
Yes I know Clark Kent could be a black man and still have the same values as the current Superman. But he hasn't even once answered why he needs to be changed in the first place?

The director of the film in question believes a black actor has the best performance of all the auditioning candidates?
 
Would you get upset if Buddha was portrayed as a skinny white gay guy, and the christian god was a big fat woman from Germany?

Comic book characters aren't entitled to one iota of the respect that figures like Christ or Buddha or Mohammed are and they aren't nearly as important to any mature human being.

These characters should be whatever makes the best film in the judgment of the people making the thing. Fuck the source material if it doesn't work for the movie.
 
I love you.
I love you too. :devil:

The director of the film in question believes a black actor has the best performance of all the auditioning candidates?
That is not even in the same league. It wasn't a question about which actor auditioned for which role. Being a white American I'd be hard pressed to audition for the lead of a rap-dance movie unless my name is Channing Tatum. The question is: why do we need to change the look/ethnicity/background story of a certain comic-book character if the established background already has proven successful numerous times? Can anyone answer that?
 
Whoa... everyone take some time to chill a bit before responding. It's a topic worthy of discussion, but that means we need not take such offense at the disagreements. THat means regardless of how you feel on this matter.

I'm generally one who'd rather see a movie representation be as faithful as is reasonably possible to the character seen in the original work. That includes the ethnic background of the actors in said roles. But I also have to admit that at times I've wondered what it'd be like to see a role played by someone of a different race from the original character. Why? Because it'd be a heckuva challenge for that actor, to pull off a performance so good that you tend to forget about their race. Unless, of course if their race is central to the story somehow.
 
You can't suddenly change your ethnicity and if you could, you wouldn't be YOU anymore. It's the same as comic books. Clark Kent is a white guy. He isn't Clark Kent anymore if he's suddenly a black guy or an Asian guy. He then just becomes some random guy with a well known name slapped onto him. He wouldn't be the same guy anymore because Clark's a white guy and that is what people know him as.

Chuck Norris isn't Chuck Norris if he's a black ginger. Malcolm X isn't Malcolm X if he's a white guy. I really don't get how that is a hard concept to understand.

In the interest of brevity, I won't quote your entire post. But a few points, at the risk of echoing other posters.

First of all, you seem to be making a large jump from comparing the ethnicity of fictional comic book characters to actual historical figures. I haven't seen anyone advocating that Malcolm X be played by a Caucasian actor (or an Asian actress, etc.). This would seem especially stupid in the case of Malcolm X, since his racial background is an essential characteristic to his importance in history.

This is probably why people get so upset when films that claim historical accuracy white-wash their historical participants, as was the case in, to draw two disparate examples, World Trade Center (2006) and Niagara: Miracles, Myths and Magic (1986). As if being relegated to mostly supporting roles in the service of white male leads was aggravating enough for minority communities who feel underrepresented in Hollywood (and other forms of media, but my background is in film, so I will stick there), to see their historical contributions credited to whites (and white males, in the case of these two films) must be even more infuriating.

Second of all, is the historical context in which these characters were created. In the case of Superman (first appeared in 1938) and Batman (first appeared in 1939) it was certainly a context of legalized segregation of minorities--be it the Jim Crow laws of the American south that affected African-Americans, or the Asian Exclusion Act that affected Asian-Americans (as well as the government sanctioned internment that would follow during World War II for those unlucky enough to be of Japanese descent). And the fight for women's rights in the United States was only just beginning (suffrage had just been won less than two decades earlier, and gains in the workplace would not be readily made by women until after the United States entered World War II, in late 1941).

With that in mind, the fact that Superman and Batman are almost exclusively (perhaps exclusively, this is not my area of expertise) depicted as white male characters is a product of an era that was, forgive me, racist. Now, this does not mean that Christian Bale should be stripped of the role and it should be awarded to Will Smith in the present day, but it does mean we should examine these characters and determine just how important their ethnicity is to the character. As Trent Roman wisely pointed out, Captain America held a position in 1940s America that would not have been held by anyone other than a white male, so for his character that identity makes sense. But for Superman and Batman (just to draw to prominent examples), what makes their Caucasian appearance a necessity? For Superman, a character who is essentially an immigrant to the United States, is it necessary for him to be white? It seems to me as if the influx of immigrants in this country at present is widely of other ethnic backgrounds. It strikes me as backwards (and I don't mean to call you backwards, I'm just following a line of reasoning here) to suggest that only a character of white maleness could stand for “truth, justice, and the American Way.” For Batman the same questions are also present. Why a white Batman? It doesn't strike me as an essential element of his character. As opposed to the real world characters of Malcolm X and Chuck Norris you suggested, who would be entirely different if you were to see their ethnicity altered.
 
With that in mind, the fact that Superman and Batman are almost exclusively (perhaps exclusively, this is not my area of expertise) depicted as white male characters is a product of an era that was, forgive me, racist.
But these characters have survived the test of time all through these decades. That has to be looked into as well for the 'why'? Well, simple: they are white characters. No offense to anyone but it is the truth: us whites are the most revered race of any other. I've experienced it myself traveling to other countries.
Now, this does not mean that Christian Bale should be stripped of the role and it should be awarded to Will Smith in the present day, but it does mean we should examine these characters and determine just how important their ethnicity is to the character.
Very! These characters are a business at the profit end of it and them being white has brought in all the profits all these years. Even many non-whites don't like non-white characters in Western depictions of superheroisms.

For Superman, a character who is essentially an immigrant to the United States, is it necessary for him to be white? It seems to me as if the influx of immigrants in this country at present is widely of other ethnic backgrounds.
You are looking at it from the eyes of an histrionic adult. When a child aged 15 and under are reading these comics he is not thinking "why can't the character look more like me?" He's thinking "Oh I wish I was as strong as Superman to lift that entire ship off the water!!!11eleventy!!1111"

It strikes me as backwards to suggest that only a character of white maleness could stand for “truth, justice, and the American Way.”
Who suggested it? Please show me where anyone is saying only a white character can do so? Go ahead, we are waiting.
For Batman the same questions are also present. Why a white Batman? It doesn't strike me as an essential element of his character.
Then neither is his family money, Alfred or any other thousands of elements that say "this is Batman". And also for shits and giggles lets make Batman a black male. I'll bet you a thousand quatloos that after the initial spike in readership for curiosity's sake, the sales will plunge beyond repair and force D.C to make Batman white again. Remember when Marvel made that plunge into the Indian market with Spider-man? Yeah, neither does any Indian. :lol:
 
It strikes me as backwards to suggest that only a character of white maleness could stand for “truth, justice, and the American Way.”
Who suggested it? Please show me where anyone is saying only a white character can do so? Go ahead, we are waiting.

Nobody explicitly suggested it, of course, as I attempted to indicate originally in the parenthetical that preceded the phrase you have quoted. However, Superman stands for "truth, justice, and the American Way." It's a phrase that did not originate with the character, but was later incorporated into the lexicon and firmly stated by Christopher Reeve in the film adaptation. When it was altered in Superman Returns (2006), there was a noticeable fan uproar. It's iconic of Superman. And by insisting that Superman must be a white male, you're implicitly excluding that icon from everyone else.

Other points of interest… Your insistence that white ethnicity is revered by others will elicit no response from me, except to say that my experiences have not coincided with yours in that matter.

You insist that these characters must be white due to profit motive. I'm sure studios would love to cast Will Smith as Batman (or Superman), then. After all, he is the most bankable star in the world. But your point is sound. Hollywood is perpetually making more of what made money yesterday. Such thinking will continue to ensure white male dominance for some time to come.

Your point about 15 year olds is interesting. I would say it was more applicable to 12 year olds and younger. I would hope that people began developing some sort of critical distance by the time they were in high school. But that may be a pipe dream. Nevertheless, since the film adaptations are targeted towards the lucrative demographic of men age 18-25, and that would be my demographic, my point still stands.

You insist that Batman's parents having money makes him out of necessity white. But that is no longer true in the United States, for there are certainly African-Americans of wealth of the appropriate generation.

Lastly, you make an interesting bet. But since there is no historical precedent (a short run in India that made no attempt to replace the dominant representation of Spiderman is a poor example) I can’t share your assuredness of the outcome. The closest examples I can think of would be the creation of Jon Stewart, a black Green Lantern (and the new movie adaptation is retaining the earlier white incarnation) or Tim Burton’s aborted black version of Robin (which was ultimately cut from Batman Returns and returned to the white version in Batman Forever).

I'd certainly be curious to see the outcome, though.
 
Buddha was skinny. The chinese made their buddha statues fat (and chinese, for that matter) because they had a cultural stereotype that wise, contented people were fat. And the Judeo-Christian God is also a bad example, because He's been often as not depicted not as looking like this guy, but as someone more like this guy. Let's not even start with showing Him in this nontraditional depiction.

Hiya David,

I'm actually quite aware of the original depiction of Buddha, but the reason why I focused on the representation of the statue is because that's how he's seen now. As that wise, contented fat smiling, peaceful looking persona. Shows someone a cross-legged skinny smiling gay guy and they're not going to think its Buddha for a start. That's where we start going wrong. There's multiple interpretations of Jesus and god etc which to be honest are equally valid, because they havent been "seen" in the real world (lets not get picky here folks, Jesus isnt in your pancake).

But even then, when we havent seen the original object we "object" when theyre portrayed differently. Black, White, Skinny, whatever.

Good catch though. I'll stick to using Mickey Mouse as an example :)
 
Comic book characters aren't entitled to one iota of the respect that figures like Christ or Buddha or Mohammed are and they aren't nearly as important to any mature human being.

These characters should be whatever makes the best film in the judgment of the people making the thing. Fuck the source material if it doesn't work for the movie.

Don't tell me what they're entitled to. You pray to your god and I'll pray to mine man. If I want Green Lantern Hal Jordan to be my God, then he's just as important as your beardy dude in the sandals ok?

If you wanna throw the source material out then fine, MAKE A NEW HERO!
 
I think people just don't like change period, it's not a racist thing, just being human, heck fans don't even like when the costume of the hero is changed! As far as actors playing heroes originally of of differant races/genders goes, I think there should be some kind of rationale to it? A black Alicia Masters is an interesting twist becouse it segues into the whole "accept people as who they are, not because of the the way they look" angle which underscores Ben Grimm's whole issue that he's still the same good heroic human being he's always been, even if he looks like a big orange rock monster on the outside. But Beyonce as Wonder Women!? :wtf: I don't think so. She's just wrong for the role and it has nothing to do with her being non-white (or non-Amazonian).
 
You can't suddenly change your ethnicity and if you could, you wouldn't be YOU anymore. It's the same as comic books. Clark Kent is a white guy. He isn't Clark Kent anymore if he's suddenly a black guy or an Asian guy. He then just becomes some random guy with a well known name slapped onto him. He wouldn't be the same guy anymore because Clark's a white guy and that is what people know him as.

Chuck Norris isn't Chuck Norris if he's a black ginger. Malcolm X isn't Malcolm X if he's a white guy. I really don't get how that is a hard concept to understand.

In the interest of brevity, I won't quote your entire post. But a few points, at the risk of echoing other posters.

First of all, you seem to be making a large jump from comparing the ethnicity of fictional comic book characters to actual historical figures. I haven't seen anyone advocating that Malcolm X be played by a Caucasian actor (or an Asian actress, etc.). This would seem especially stupid in the case of Malcolm X, since his racial background is an essential characteristic to his importance in history.


You aren't really getting the point, either.

It has nothing to do with what they did in reality, it has to do with the fact that we know these people for who they are. If some random white guy had played Malcolm X in a movie, it wouldn't be Malcolm X, just like a black guy playing Clark Kent wouldn't be Clark Kent, as I have said before.

Disregard the real/not real part of it and look further into the comparison. Changing the ethnicity of anyone, whether they are real or not, is generally a stupid idea. Sometimes it works (like in Green Lantern's case but at least they made it a new guy, they didn't just take a black guy and slap any of the previous GL's names on him) but most of the time, it takes away from the origins of the character/person and destroys everything.


I grew up with Batman, for one, and my childhood would be raped if they suddenly made Bruce Wayne a different race. It has nothing to do with racism at all, it just has to do with the fact that Bruce Wayne was born a white male. That is who he is, that is who he should remain, that is who I grew up with.
 
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Fictional characters weren't born, they were created, and if their ethnicity (or any other characteristic for that matter) they were originally inscribed with is not essential to their character, I don't see any reason why it should not be changed if it will be advantageous for the story to do so. If it is fierce loyalty to the original source material you are looking for, then any of the Batman films or comics set in the modern era should be equally upsetting, since it is ultimately as irrelevant to the character when Batman is set.
 
I grew up with Batman, for one, and my childhood would be raped if they suddenly made Bruce Wayne a different race. It has nothing to do with racism at all, it just has to do with the fact that Bruce Wayne was born a white male. That is who he is, that is who he should remain, that is who I grew up with.


As much as dislike the "raped my childhood" meme of the internet, I have to agree with you on this.

We all have few very icons to which we hold dear. whether its Blade, Batman or Barack Obama.

Whether theyre born or created, lets not mess with them too much eh?
 
I could see changing the ethnicity of various characters. Ethnicity's pretty much interchangeable (as opposed to culture, which isn't, but they aren't causally related, only correlated by the fact that cultures tend to arise around ethnicity--for example, where there are lots of Japanese people, like in Japan, you tend to get a lot of Japanese culture).

But it kind of mystifies me that some folks will argue for switching gender or sexual orientation. These aren't really interchangeable. Gender is a strong influence on the way the individual relates to the world, and way the world relates to the individual. This is partly due to socially defined gender roles, and we're fortunately evolving away from that I think. However, I submit that it is also partly due to the difference a Y chromosome makes during cognitive and sexual development.

It's not just background. Women and men tend to act differently. Not better or worse, mind (if I had to choose, I'd say men act badly more overtly, although women can be more cruel :p ). But differently.

Making a woman who acts "masculine" is no big deal--Ultimate Black Widow is a somewhat well-done version of this, and frankly I suspect a lot of writers wind up simply writing men with boobs instead of women. This is better than the Melvin Udall method of "think[ing] of a man, and tak[ing] away reason and accountability," but it would produce a character just as atypical of her gender. Atypicality isn't a bad thing, in fact it's a good thing for creating vivid characters, but when it's treated as the norm, it loses it's specialness.

If there's a demand for specificity about what I mean by differences, here goes. I'd say that men tend to be more impulsive, less caring, less emotive, particularly when it comes to weakness, more ready to force an issue through physical violence or other forms of intimidation, and are often more interested in useless minutiae. Women tend to be more thoughtful, more caring, more emotive--although perhaps less so than traditionally thought--are more interested in using negotiation or manipulation to resolve an issue, and are more global thinkers. I'd also say that women tend more toward sexual exclusivity than men, as an inevitable result of women being the ones who have to pay the price of sexual reproduction. Naturally, no individual can be typed just by their gender, and I'm sure many men are more emotive, less willing to punch me in the face, give less of a crap about the classes of Romulan starships, and are more likely to settle down with me than many women.

Further, and this is something I find hard to articulate with specificity, I notice syntactical differences in the way men and women speak and write. It's no foolproof method, but I can usually get a sense from written material, outside of context clues or explicit statements, as to whether a man or woman wrote it.

Moving onto sexual orientation, this is even less interchangeable than gender. Peter Parker dating Harry Osborne (or Norman for that matter :p) is going to be a completely different dynamic than dating Mary Jane, even if you switched the socioeconomic backgrounds and interests of the two characters. It could even be interesting--but it's sure not going to be identical.
 
It's simple really. Audience expectation rises along with how publicly well known the character is. Most studio executives are going to give the audience what it wants/expects. Therefore, the more they change the great iconic characters, the worse off the movie will do. Generally speaking. A bad movie is still a bad movie no matter how "spot on" the character is.
 
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