Spock's Conscience/Should Spock warn _____ about ______?

[whisperingloon]

Re: Spock's Conscience

And i said new or Alternate crew, as in a either a New Crew on a new ship, or the new Kirk and co. And its irrelevant who the characters are, having Old Spock lead the way hinders there development.

Im all for a New ship with a New crew, even tackling the old crises of TOS, but they should do it on their own, with no handholding from Old Spock.

And anything may happen and go wrong, but who cares when you have the Uber experienced Spock on the other end of a Subspace channel to tell you what to do next.

Yes, in the hands of a weak, unimaginative writer, you're correct. There could be no development.

Of course, that's true with ANY story.

I think the philosophical questions ("Yes, he's not from our timeline, but we're still 'cheating fate', aren't we?") and a strongly developed cast of characters would make it interesting. Even with handholding from Spock.

Take Doomsday machine:

Old Spock tells them the path and how to destroy it. They create a weapon needed to make the sacrifice of a ship unnecessary, but of course they still have to deliver it. However (plot device) Klingon spies have also learned of this mission, and cut them off . . . because the Klingons want to harness this weapon. Discovering how to stop the Doomsday machine suddenly becomes secondary -- unlike the TOS episode, where that's the entirity of the plot. In the teaser of this new series episode, they already know how to stop it. How to get past the Klingons to stop it becomes the question, and you end up with a central conflict between the crew of the ship with teh weapon and the crew of the Klingon ship. Ramp up the tension by having them go into battle against the Klingons, but say the "super weapon" is unstable. Fly in, fire, fly out is dangerous enough. Fly in, DO BATTLE, fire, fly out . . . they run the risk of destroying themselves AND the Klingons.

Your B-plot is a mirros story, where the captain and his/her wife/husband are facing divorce, and the destructiveness of the uber-weapon and the battle with the Klingons mirrors the falling apart of their marriage/relationship.

That's just off the top of my head. A better writer than me could probably come up with better ways to ramp up tension in a scenario like this. In my comic book writing, in the time travel graphic novel series I've developed, I face these kind of problems all the time. How do you have tension when everyone KNOWS Ben Franklin can't die? You create tension elsewhere, nd wrap yoru story around that. Ben Franklin can't die, but the future characters can . . .

~ Ben

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Re: Spock's Conscience

And we are seriously hi-jacking the thread.

Well seeing as this was my thread to start with before it got merged with another one about 5 minutes ago there is no "hi-jacking"

 

[whisperingloon]

Re: Spock's Conscience

And we are seriously hi-jacking the thread.

Well seeing as this was my thread to start with before it got merged with another one about 5 minutes ago there is no "hi-jacking"

Yeah, what's up with that? I've posted four or five times, and twice now the thread has disappeared. I had to go into my profile, find "all post by whisperingloon", and discovered that the thread is now merged with a different thread.

Very confusing . . .

~ Ben

 

[Silent_Bob]

Re: Spock's Conscience

Well in my defense for the hijacking comment, i had multiple tabs open with both threads in them. Only after posting a dozen times did i realise that both tabs had the same title, at first i thought i had gotten confused which thread i was posting in and had managed to completely derail it.

I still think Old Spock would end up being as much of a crutch as Technobabble was in the past. Ben, your idea for a story could be carried out just as effectively without Spock at all. And it would have the benefit of making the new crew look better- hey these guys figured it out before Kirk did! They must be smart.

You are right it depends entirely on the writers, and perhaps any future Trek series will have a stronger writing team than the past. At least i hope they will anyway.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Re: Spock's Conscience

Well in my defense for the hijacking comment, i had multiple tabs open with both threads in them. Only after posting a dozen times did i realise that both tabs had the same title, at first i thought i had gotten confused which thread i was posting in and had managed to completely derail it.

I still think Old Spock would end up being as much of a crutch as Technobabble was in the past. Ben, your idea for a story could be carried out just as effectively without Spock at all. And it would have the benefit of making the new crew look better- hey these guys figured it out before Kirk did! They must be smart.

You are right it depends entirely on the writers, and perhaps any future Trek series will have a stronger writing team than the past. At least i hope they will anyway.

Spock is nothing more than a means by which to spark off the adventure, to go out into space and take care of the threats which although known about in advance makes the mission no less important or dangerous.
The Enterprise crew need to take a different path in this new timeline to allow for some great future movies, we can't have them taking the same 5 year mission which means someone needs to deal with the problems that they dealt with and perhaps those other crews arn't capable of dealing with those threats (without advance notice) which is why if a special team is put together to deal with them we can have an interesting series.

I for one would like to know how in this new timeline things like the doomsday machine and botony bay gets dealt with and having a series like this answer these type of questions and can make for interesting watching all the while we can enjoy new missions on the big screen for the Enterprise.

 

[Silent_Bob]

Re: Spock's Conscience

I for one would like to know how in this new timeline things like the doomsday machine and botony bay gets dealt with and having a series like this answer these type of questions and can make for interesting watching all the while we can enjoy new missions on the big screen for the Enterprise.

And i agree entirely with this premise, its just the execution and details i disagree with.

 

[whisperingloon]

Re: Spock's Conscience

I still think Old Spock would end up being as much of a crutch as Technobabble was in the past. Ben, your idea for a story could be carried out just as effectively without Spock at all. And it would have the benefit of making the new crew look better- hey these guys figured it out before Kirk did! They must be smart.

Old Spock could become a crutch, yeah, very easily.

"It didn't work! Call Spock!"



This series idea, really, would rest squarely on the gimmick that "we're going to revisit all the stuff that they did in hte original series".

A new series, with new characters, that's specifically on an exploration mission . . . you could maybe get away with a couple chance encounters with TOS/TNG things. Having Spock guide you takes away the chance encounter, gives you reason to go to these places.

Another story idea: they get there (wherever "there" might be), and the thing Spock warned them about isn't there!

Roll opening credits . . .

~ Ben

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Re: Spock's Conscience

I for one would like to know how in this new timeline things like the doomsday machine and botony bay gets dealt with and having a series like this answer these type of questions and can make for interesting watching all the while we can enjoy new missions on the big screen for the Enterprise.

And i agree entirely with this premise, its just the execution and details i disagree with.

Why have the same old style Trek again? why have a ship travelling in space happening upon problems by chance? why not instead try a whole different approach and actually have a ship built and a crew chosen who's mission is to actually go out and FIND the problems?

I love the idea that each episode the ship checks the information left behind by old Spock and says "OK, now we've gotta go and find this doomsday machine, let's start looking for it, engage."

Old Spock could become a crutch, yeah, very easily.

"It didn't work! Call Spock!"

When he's dead? When he's dead? When he's dead? When he's dead? When he's dead?

This series idea, really, would rest squarely on the gimmick that "we're going to revisit all the stuff that they did in hte original series".

It's not just TOS stuff, they're not revisiting everything just serious threats. It will also have information and threats from TNG and DS9. Like I said about the Bajoran wormhole and the Dominion, the Feds might not understand the real threat of the Dominion and sent a ship through to have a look hundreds of years early.

The opportunities for this new timeline is endless.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: Spock's Conscience

I hate to agree with Tachyon Shield, especially since he's presenting his case in a bit of an obnoxious fashion, but I do. With pretty much everything he's saying. And I'll add one more thing to it: How much you do or do not want Spock Prime to become a "crutch" is totally beside the point. The fact is, he's there now. How realistic would it really be for him to keep his mouth shut about threats that could endanger all of these people who, from his native timeline or not, are REAL people and deserve his help?

Be careful what you wish for. You may find yourself in the position, five or ten years down the road, of bemoaning how stupid it was that the writers decided he would keep it all to himself. Especially if it means that the movies and any spin-off series episodes become fan service remakes of classic episodes with next to no change to make them fresh and new....

 

[Silent_Bob]

Re: Spock's Conscience

When he's dead? When he's dead? When he's dead? When he's dead? When he's dead?

Well i did say he had to either shut up or die .

It's not just TOS stuff, they're not revisiting everything just serious threats. It will also have information and threats from TNG and DS9. Like I said about the Bajoran wormhole and the Dominion.

But where does that leave us at the end of the series? If all the major threats of the next century or so are dealt with, what the heck is Jean-luc Picard going to do after he graduates high school and is made Captain of the Federation flagship?

About the only way fixing everything would work for me is if by doing so they end up making things even worse. Lets say by the end of the first series, they have crossed of 50% of the Old Spock Bad Things List, and by doing so the creator of Evil-Species-Of-Doom is allowed to live instead of dying when the brain parasites come to visit and the Federation is stuffed.
At least it give them a new challenge and something they werent expecting.

Be careful what you wish for. You may find yourself in the position, five or ten years down the road, of bemoaning how stupid it was that the writers decided he would keep it all to himself. Especially if it means that the movies and any spin-off series episodes become fan service remakes of classic episodes with next to no change to make them fresh and new....

The changes made already negate that possibility. The Enterprise is engaging on its maiden voyage a decade late, with a different crew. Kirk isnt the experienced leader he was in TOS, he's a rookie. Scotty isnt an experienced, mostly calm Second Officer and Chief Engineer, he's an overly enthusiastic tit. Changes like that already effect how they would deal with situations. Heck given how badly Vulcan suffered in the film, New Spock may even favour Khan's idea that strong ruthless leaders are needed. Old Spock isnt needed to make a difference.

And you have no idea how much it pains me to use New Scotty as a positive thing.

 

[whisperingloon]

Re: Spock's Conscience

Nah, he doesn't have to be dead. He's on New Vulcan, pretty busy with the whole "rebuilding a dead culture" thing.

It all depends on the capable hands of the writers.

I wouldn't be surprised, though, if in about a week or two you start seeing some fan fiction with this very premise, if it hasn't already started! (Heck, I'm half tempted to do it myself . . . if I wasn't already so busy. That's why I'm thinking I may develop something non-Trek but with a similar premise. The difficulty would be that it wouldn't carry the historical baggage a Trek series like this owuld carry.)

Oh, and I absolutely agree -- it's not just the TOS era stuff they'd deal with. Spock's been around for a LONG time.

Meanwhile . . . what I always try to do in my writing is to determine teh very worst thing that could happen to a character (based on their needs and desires).

What's the worst thing that could happen to this new timeline universe?

Spock being assimilated by the Borg.

~ Ben

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: Spock's Conscience

But where does that leave us at the end of the series? If all the major threats of the next century or so are dealt with, what the heck is Jean-luc Picard going to do after he graduates high school and is made Captain of the Federation flagship?

Face off against the D'Agla Nok? Or The Originals?

Oh, right - I keep forgetting y'all don't know about them yet. I'm continually in danger of violating my own version of the Temporal Prime Directive.

About the only way fixing everything would work for me is if by doing so they end up making things even worse. Lets say by the end of the first series, they have crossed of 50% of the Old Spock Bad Things List, and by doing so the creator of Evil-Species-Of-Doom is allowed to live instead of dying when the brain parasites come to visit and the Federation is stuffed.

See, this is more like it. And likely. Murphy will no doubt have his say.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: Spock's Conscience

Spock being assimilated by the Borg.

Aw, shit.

Shhhh.... don't say another word, and pretend you didn't say that. Abrams' lackeys might be reading.

 

[whisperingloon]

Re: Spock's Conscience

About the only way fixing everything would work for me is if by doing so they end up making things even worse. Lets say by the end of the first series, they have crossed of 50% of the Old Spock Bad Things List, and by doing so the creator of Evil-Species-Of-Doom is allowed to live instead of dying when the brain parasites come to visit and the Federation is stuffed.
At least it give them a new challenge and something they werent expecting.

Yup! And there's another Trek-ish philosophical throughline that competent writers would deal with.

They stopped teh Doomsday Machine . . .

A new race, that would have been wiped out by it, is allowed to rise up and become a major threat that Spock never expected!

We're getting into, "If you could kill Hilter as a child, would you?" territory, only the opposite direction . . . would you save a baby Hitler?

~ Ben

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Re: Spock's Conscience

I hate to agree with Tachyon Shield, especially since he's presenting his case in a bit of an obnoxious fashion,

No i'm not.

But where does that leave us at the end of the series? If all the major threats of the next century or so are dealt with, what the heck is Jean-luc Picard going to do after he graduates high school and is made Captain of the Federation flagship?

We're not going to be seeing another TNG series set in the new timeline so it really doesn't matter. Besides the new ship isn't going to be dealing with everything they dealt with in TNG it's just major threats that Spock is aware of.
Of course who's to say Picard is born in this timeline anyway? i'm with the crowd that believes the sperm and egg that made him have an infinity to 1 chance of meeting this time around.

Whilst this ship is dealing with pre-known threats the new Ent can be out there discovering new ones.

 

[Peter the Younger]

Re: Spock's Conscience

I'd think that, if the writers were going to touch any TOS stuff, the starting point would have to be "what has Old Spock told them?" There is a way to do stories like that - the unintended consequences of changing events - but it's tricky to do well. They might be better off steering clear of the old stuff altogether, and just assuming Old Spock took care of the Doomsday Machine, Khan, Whale Probe, etc., off screen.

 

[Silent_Bob]

Re: Spock's Conscience

I'd think that, if the writers were going to touch any TOS stuff, the starting point would have to be "what has Old Spock told them?" There is a way to do stories like that - the unintended consequences of changing events - but it's tricky to do well. They might be better off steering clear of the old stuff altogether, and just assuming Old Spock took care of the Doomsday Machine, Khan, Whale Probe, etc., off screen.

Or let the books do it. The stuff Pocket is putting out is of far higher quality than anything we have had on screen for years, new movie included.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: Spock's Conscience

I hate to agree with Tachyon Shield, especially since he's presenting his case in a bit of an obnoxious fashion,

No i'm not.

Saying "when he's dead?" over and over is a bit obnoxious. Bolding and italicizing it once would have worked as well.

But don't mind that - carry on. For the purposes of this thread so far, I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

[hyzmarca]

Re: Spock's Conscience

Start the movie with a 15 second teaser in which Kirk and crew mention how easy it was to take out the planet-destroying nomad robot. "All I had to do was point out that it was imperfect. How dumb can robots be." Then they contact Starfleet, and are answered by Kang, while they were out on the fringes of known space taking out doomsday devices of all sorts the Klingon Empire pushed into Federation territory and annexed Earth.

 

[whisperingloon]

Re: Spock's Conscience

They might be better off steering clear of the old stuff altogether, and just assuming Old Spock took care of the Doomsday Machine, Khan, Whale Probe, etc., off screen.

For the next film? yeah, absolutely. It's easy enough to assume.

We're taking about a series that explains the off screen-y stuff.

~ Ben