Spock's Conscience/Should Spock warn _____ about ______?

[Deks]

I agree with the premise that Spock should at the very least share advanced technical knowledge with SF.
They lost more than enough ships to Nero (Klingons as well) which can also have negative consequences for some large scale conflicts in terms of wars, so helping everyone to rebuild fast would be good.

Perhaps Spock doesn't have to tell SF everything about major threats that might happen.
He could say that several things happened in his timeline that ultimately presented a major threat to Earth, but that also with Vulcan destroyed and so many things altered, numerous aspects (as far as the Federation goes and other events in the A & B quadrants) could unfold in a far different capacity.

Therefore, if the 'prime Spock' knows he has no means of going back to his own time-line (Slingshot around the sun anyone?) ... he will likely stay in the past and help rebuilding Vulcan among other things.

 

[erebus]

I think Spock needs to stay stum because of the Prime Directive : how does he know he won't make things worse?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I think Spock needs to stay stum because of the Prime Directive : how does he know he won't make things worse?

How does he know keeping quiet won't doom the federation to death and destruction?
It's a new timeline and noting is certain anymore, the prime directive has no bearing for old Spock anymore seeing as it's his ship and him that ended up bringing Nero back in time and altering everything.
The damage is done, it's time to ensure that the Federation doesn't succumb to the future threats because there's no reason to believe that without Spocks future info that the Federation will survive this time around.

 

[erebus]

I think Spock needs to stay stum because of the Prime Directive : how does he know he won't make things worse?

How does he know keeping quiet won't doom the federation to death and destruction?
It's a new timeline and noting is certain anymore, the prime directive has no bearing for old Spock anymore seeing as it's his ship and him that ended up bringing Nero back in time and altering everything.
The damage is done, it's time to ensure that the Federation doesn't succumb to the future threats because there's no reason to believe that without Spocks future info that the Federation will survive this time around.

Nope can't agree with this. Just because you make one mistake doesn't mean you can make it right by introducing more.

Besides isn't it hubris to assume the Federation can't survive without you. Afterall it managed ok the first time around without any foreknowledge: helping it will stifle its ablity to improvise against future threats and so you might end up doing more harm than good. Because of the differences in this new timeline, something unexpected is bound to happen and then where will they be without the crutch of prescience on which they have grown to depend on?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I think Spock needs to stay stum because of the Prime Directive : how does he know he won't make things worse?

How does he know keeping quiet won't doom the federation to death and destruction?
It's a new timeline and noting is certain anymore, the prime directive has no bearing for old Spock anymore seeing as it's his ship and him that ended up bringing Nero back in time and altering everything.
The damage is done, it's time to ensure that the Federation doesn't succumb to the future threats because there's no reason to believe that without Spocks future info that the Federation will survive this time around.

Nope can't agree with this. Just because you make one mistake doesn't mean you can make it right by introducing more.

It's common sense, the timeline is completely and utterly different, the Federation might be destroyed by the whale probe and I for one wouldn't want to risk that and have it on my conscience. Telling this new Federation (cos that's what it is) about what is to come is the logical thing to do because nothing is set in stone anymore and there's no reason the believe that the Enterprise crew this time around will save the day.

You're not understanding that old Spocks original universe is still there continuing on without him, this new timeline/universe was created by Nero and by Spock, this new timeline is old Spocks own little baby so to speak. It's illogical and quite stupid to just presume everything is going to be ok.

Spock helped create this timeline, it's Spocks responsibility to ensure that the Federation of this new timeline of his creation doesn't suffer death and destruction, he's already caused the destruction of Vulcan, does he want the destruction of the Federation on his 'conscience' aswell??

Besides isn't it hubris to assume the Federation can't survive without you. Afterall it managed ok the first time around without any foreknowledge: helping it will stifle its ablity to improvise against future threats and so you might end up doing more harm than good. Because of the differences in this new timeline, something unexpected is bound to happen and then where will they be without the crutch of prescience on which they have grown to depend on?

That's just silly, we've seen before how changes in the timeline have caused the downfall of the federation, just look at the episode 'yesterdays Enterprise' and the repercussions of the timeline being changed. The Federation was about to be conquered by the klingons. Everything we've seen in the original timeline have pretty much been flukes and there's no reason to think these flukes will happen again.
Who always saves the day? the Enterprise, what if the Entperise isn't around this time to save the day?

You cannot just presume that things will be ok, why risk the death and destruction of the Federation just because you think "oh things might be ok, ya never know".
Why take the risk? just tell the new Federation now so they'll be prepared.

How anyone can think Spock keeping his mouth shut is the correct thing to do just baffles me, it really does.

 

[section9]

Re: Should Spock Prime Warn the UFP About Specific Major Threats?

Like somebody said above, each time they succeeded in defeating things such as for example the whale probe it all relied on a specific set of circumstances. They've always pretty much fluked their way through things.
For starters they were in the BoP heading to Earth from VULCAN! Vulcan is now destroyed people, Vulcan is no more in this timeline so they're definitely not going to be in the same place at the same time this time around.

The timeline is different, old Spock has no logical reason to believe that this time around the Ent crew are going to be on-board a Klingon BOP when the whale probe hits. They might end up being in spacedock at the time, vacationing on Risa or might even set course for the thing in the Ent and end up dying as a result.
The logical thing for old Spock to do in a screwed up timeline is ensure these threats are dealt with or it's pretty much the end of the Federation and Earth.

Nobody with an ounce of intelligence would just leave things be and "hope for the best" that the new Ent crew will be in the right place at the right time when the whale probe hits or infact just assume the crew will have gained the knowledge and character required to pull such a mission off.

The logical course of action in such a new timeline is to warn the Federation about these Federation/Earth destroying threats so they can be dealt with.

By warning the Feds they can build a new ship, put together a new crew and have this ship and crew deal with these threats. The Enterprise can then boldy go where they've never gone before and leave this other ship to deal with the threats. The Enterprise on the big screen can then deal with new ones.

Well, eggsxactly.

It's incumbent on Starfleet to build a freighter/timeship to go back to the 20th Century again and pick up a school of humpback whales so the whale probe leaves earth alone. In additiion, Starfleet has to start broadcasting old NASA disable signals to the Voyager Probe so it shuts down the monster V'ger. At least those two things needs be done.

Plus, Q is likely to show up earlier now and start mucking around with people's lives.

Bastard!

 

[erebus]

Yes, what i'm saying is since things have changed, the problems will have changed (they could follow the same as last time to an appreciable degree, they could be something completely different) and therefore the solutions will have to be different.

But if you stifle the set of solutions, then you become vulnerable to chance happenings and if you are not prepared for them by being practiced in improvising. Your lost.

How do you know that if left alone, they will not come up with a better solution to every problem you propose?

How do you know that if you use the same solution, you miss an aspect that makes that solution redundant? And that causes a destructive cascade effect?

What if you miscommunicate the solution by 0.0001% and thats the critical fraction?

You are introducing more unknowns by interfering.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Yes, what i'm saying is since things have changed, the problems will have changed (they could follow the same as last time to an appreciable degree, they could be something completely different) and therefore the solutions will have to be different.

Yes I see what you mean, the Whale probe will come to the Earth listening for humpback whale song differently.
The doomsday machine might get defeated by someone who has the same idea as they had in the original timeline OR it might not get stopped and hundreds more worlds are destroyed.

I'm sorry but your argument of "they may succeed differently" is not a good enough argument against Spock giving the Federation information.
It's as silly as saying to a police officer don't bother wearing a bullet proof vest because you might not get shot.

 

[erebus]

Yes, what i'm saying is since things have changed, the problems will have changed (they could follow the same as last time to an appreciable degree, they could be something completely different) and therefore the solutions will have to be different.

Yes I see what you mean, the Whale probe will come to the Earth listening for humpback whale song differently.
The doomsday machine might get defeated by someone who has the same idea as they had in the original timeline OR it might not get stopped and hundreds more worlds are destroyed.

I'm sorry but your argument of "they may succeed differently" is not a good enough argument against Spock giving the Federation information.
It's as silly as saying to a police officer don't bother wearing a bullet proof vest because you might not get shot.

No, the reason why that is not a fair analogy is because i am saying that the people in the new timeline are just as competent as the people in the old timeline: the police officer is not bothering to wear a bullet proof vest, he's using a better make instead.

We didn't know how Kirk and co were going to solve the problems of the whale probe and the doomsday machine because thats what makes them Kirk and co and they improvise with the situation.

If you create a blind spot by saying 'this event is going to happen like this and this is the solution', it may introduce detrimental and even fatal inertia to their decision making if the circumstances are even slightly different.

And there is uncertainty at the quantum level for those events: the probe and doomsday machine had encounters before they reached the Enterprise; and in the new timeline anything could have happened to change their behaviour. They may pose the same threats, or something different, or even none at all I don't know.

I'm not saying I hope things will go alright, I'm saying we have to trust in the abilities of our people to think on their feet.

 

[Lt. Trull]

Re: Should Spock Prime Warn the UFP About Specific Major Threats?

Like somebody said above, each time they succeeded in defeating things such as for example the whale probe it all relied on a specific set of circumstances. They've always pretty much fluked their way through things.
For starters they were in the BoP heading to Earth from VULCAN! Vulcan is now destroyed people, Vulcan is no more in this timeline so they're definitely not going to be in the same place at the same time this time around.

The timeline is different, old Spock has no logical reason to believe that this time around the Ent crew are going to be on-board a Klingon BOP when the whale probe hits. They might end up being in spacedock at the time, vacationing on Risa or might even set course for the thing in the Ent and end up dying as a result.
The logical thing for old Spock to do in a screwed up timeline is ensure these threats are dealt with or it's pretty much the end of the Federation and Earth.

Nobody with an ounce of intelligence would just leave things be and "hope for the best" that the new Ent crew will be in the right place at the right time when the whale probe hits or infact just assume the crew will have gained the knowledge and character required to pull such a mission off.

The logical course of action in such a new timeline is to warn the Federation about these Federation/Earth destroying threats so they can be dealt with.

By warning the Feds they can build a new ship, put together a new crew and have this ship and crew deal with these threats. The Enterprise can then boldy go where they've never gone before and leave this other ship to deal with the threats. The Enterprise on the big screen can then deal with new ones.

Well, eggsxactly.

It's incumbent on Starfleet to build a freighter/timeship to go back to the 20th Century again and pick up a school of humpback whales so the whale probe leaves earth alone. In additiion, Starfleet has to start broadcasting old NASA disable signals to the Voyager Probe so it shuts down the monster V'ger. At least those two things needs be done.

Plus, Q is likely to show up earlier now and start mucking around with people's lives.

Bastard!

Actually... it's now incumbent on sector 31.... they are now task with protecting the federation at all costs... once they learn of the whale problem they have to fix it. or try to. or trick others into fixing the problem.

well... wouldn't that be a interesting movie... a sector 31 inspired movie.

 

[Flake]

Maybe Spock dies of old age before divulging any secrets? Or he disappears in a flash of light never to be seen again?

 

[All Seeing Eye]

No, the reason why that is not a fair analogy is because i am saying that the people in the new timeline are just as competent as the people in the old timeline:

Are they really? how do you know that then? their lives have been different, their lives are going to be different, they are anything but the same people.

We didn't know how Kirk and co were going to solve the problems of the whale probe and the doomsday machine because thats what makes them Kirk and co and they improvise with the situation.

This is a new timeline/universe, they are different people already, they are not the same people and the factors leading up to them having the bright ideas to save the day may not happen this time.

If you create a blind spot by saying 'this event is going to happen like this and this is the solution', it may introduce detrimental and even fatal inertia to their decision making if the circumstances are even slightly different.

I'm sorry, but you don't go back in time, alter the past and then sit back and hope everything is going to be peachy again this time around.

I'm not saying I hope things will go alright, I'm saying we have to trust in the abilities of our people to think on their feet.

There are no guarantees in this new timeline. The destruction of Earth and/or the Federation is not something to be played with. It's not a game, you can't simply "put your faith" in a group of people who other people (including old spock) know nothing about. This crew is a different crew they are not the same crew as the originals, their lives have been different and are going to be different.
Putting trust in someones abilities is all well and good but when they do fail this time around and the Earth is wiped out what is Spock going to say? "oops, I guess I should have said something sooner".

 

[erebus]

Maybe Spock dies of old age before divulging any secrets? Or he disappears in a flash of light never to be seen again?

yes, this relates to the point about miscommunication which can also be another source of possibly fatal error or destructive consequences.

Spock already miscalculated the stability of the Horus Nova, and that was when he was on full thrusters.

 

[erebus]

Re: Should Spock Prime Warn the UFP About Specific Major Threats?

Actually... it's now incumbent on sector 31.... they are now task with protecting the federation at all costs... once they learn of the whale problem they have to fix it. or try to. or trick others into fixing the problem.

well... wouldn't that be a interesting movie... a sector 31 inspired movie.

section 31 may not exist in this timeline.

 

[Flake]

I will wager on there being a scene in Trek XII where Kirk seeks out Spock Primes wisdom about an impending threat only to find Spock on his deathbed and too weak to even perform a mind meld.

Spock dies like Sarek did after giving out some kind of cryptic clue, probably about Khan after he takes over the USS Reliant - the ship that discovers his sleeper ship

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Re: Should Spock Prime Warn the UFP About Specific Major Threats?

section 31 may not exist in this timeline.

Section 31 was create at the birth of the Federation, the timeline changed during the time of the kelvin. Section 31 therefore exists.

 

[erebus]

No, the reason why that is not a fair analogy is because i am saying that the people in the new timeline are just as competent as the people in the old timeline:

Are they really? how do you know that then? their lives have been different, their lives are going to be different, they are anything but the same people.

Because the degree of involvement a person has with the universe depends on their nature and the nature of these people is that they will always strive to be maximally involved with whats going on. They are different people in a different universe which is the same as the same people in the same universe (i mean they have the same degree of rapport with their respective universes).

We didn't know how Kirk and co were going to solve the problems of the whale probe and the doomsday machine because thats what makes them Kirk and co and they improvise with the situation.

This is a new timeline/universe, they are different people already, they are not the same people and the factors leading up to them having the bright ideas to save the day may not happen this time.

and equally likely, they may encounter other factors and other bright ideas: as you say this is a new universe and since they are of this universe it is more likely their ideas will better suit it than some second-hand ones.

If you create a blind spot by saying 'this event is going to happen like this and this is the solution', it may introduce detrimental and even fatal inertia to their decision making if the circumstances are even slightly different.

I'm sorry, but you don't go back in time, alter the past and then sit back and hope everything is going to be peachy again this time around.

You do if you don't know what you are doing and already messed up really bad, and let the people who know this universe do their jobs.

I'm not saying I hope things will go alright, I'm saying we have to trust in the abilities of our people to think on their feet.

There are no guarantees in this new timeline. The destruction of Earth and/or the Federation is not something to be played with. It's not a game, you can't simply "put your faith" in a group of people who other people (including old spock) know nothing about. This crew is a different crew they are not the same crew as the originals, their lives have been different and are going to be different.
Putting trust in someones abilities is all well and good but when they do fail this time around and the Earth is wiped out what is Spock going to say? "oops, I guess I should have said something sooner".

I'm saying it could be Spocks input that causes the failure. There is no guarantee neither that his advice will save the day. I agree it is not a game, therefore you shouldn't gamble that the old attitude will prevail in new circumstances rather than considering the circumstances on face value for a solution.

 

[Lt. Trull]

and you can't say that even spock prime TOLD kirk that he (kirk prime) was the one who taught him that even changing the timeline is ok to fix things.

 

[erebus]

Re: Should Spock Prime Warn the UFP About Specific Major Threats?

section 31 may not exist in this timeline.

Section 31 was create at the birth of the Federation, the timeline changed during the time of the kelvin. Section 31 therefore exists.

Apologies for the error, i semi-concede that point (The nature of section 31 maybe subtly or grossly altered - or it may not exist because new circumstances have caused it not to endure).

 

[erebus]

and you can't say that even spock prime TOLD kirk that he (kirk prime) was the one who taught him that even changing the timeline is ok to fix things.

Yes, KirkPrime might be wrong too.