Could you respect a woman in the female uniform?

[Christopher]

I think it's a silly question. Why would the amount of respect a woman is entitled to be affected by how much of her skin is covered by fabric?

And it's culturally relative anyway. Does Scotty deserve less respect than Kirk or McCoy because his dress uniform includes a kilt rather than pants? Isn't that an arbitrary and meaningless distinction?

Ancient Greek sculptors and painters routinely depicted their gods in the nude. Was that an expression of disrespect? No. Not every culture perceives human flesh as somehow objectionable. I'd certainly like to think that Earth society in the 23rd century has healthier attitudes than that.

Does the way a woman dresses affect my own opinion of her as a person? No. My best friend in college was a stunningly beautiful and sexy woman, and I certainly enjoyed it immensely when she wore revealing summer dresses, but I had exactly as much respect for her mind, for her feelings, for her rights, for however you care to define respect. I was easily able to enjoy her (totally unaffected) sexiness and relate to her as a friend and equal at the same time.

As I see it, it's not disrespectful to admire a person's physical attributes; it's only disrespectful to ignore the rest of that person. Appreciation of a woman is not a zero-sum game. You don't have to subtract attention from her inner attributes to focus it on her outward ones. I've never had trouble paying attention to both at once.

 

[Anticitizen]

And the inevitable follow-up question - can you respect a man in this uniform?

 

[urbandk]

Of course, I hope I could respect a woman no matter what she wore. The question is, was it respectful to the actresses and the audience to reduce women to objects of desire, rigid martinets, jilted sociopaths, or forlorn aspiring housewives?

The uniforms were one part of the problem.

 

[Plum]

I think it's a silly question. Why would the amount of respect a woman is entitled to be affected by how much of her skin is covered by fabric?
<SNiP!>

Thank you. Ever the one to point out the irony, or sexism in this case.

I noticed people neglected to mention this was the mid to late 60s! At the time, wearing a sexy outfit like that was considered 'liberated'. Remember, at the time women were to be virginal and pure 50s kitchen queens. Stepford wives. Women weren't supposed to like being sexy. That was bad. Sinful. It might seem silly today, those tiny skirts, but back then it was a symbol of female power. Sexual power. Really, scared the crap out of Nixon!

Go watch Mad Men. You'll be shocked.

 

[JustKate]

I noticed people neglected to mention this was the mid to late 60s! At the time, wearing a sexy outfit like that was considered 'liberated'. Remember, at the time women were to be virginal and pure 50s kitchen queens. Stepford wives. Women weren't supposed to like being sexy. That was bad. Sinful. It might seem silly today, those tiny skirts, but back then it was a symbol of female power. Sexual power. Really, scared the crap out of Nixon!

Go watch Mad Men. You'll be shocked.

Plum, sorry, but it was not "liberated." It was fashion. Lots of unliberated women wore miniskirts, too. Anyone who didn't want to look dowdy wore skirts that were at least fairly short (heck, even Pat Nixon's were at her knee, if I remember correctly), though I can't remember many real-world women wearing skirts quite as short as the Trek women did.

And the ones who did wear really short skirts weren't trying to be liberated. They were trying to be sexy and/or in fashion. That's it.

I don't have to watch Mad Men - I was around then. I wasn't old enough to be worried about being liberated, but I was plenty old enough to notice what clothes women were wearing.

The braless look of the 1970s was supposedly about liberation, too. But however it began, it became...fashion. Just fashion.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Could you imagine Jim Kirk wearing tiny gym shorts and a tank top to work?

Actually yes.

Mr. Ripped-Shirt himself...

Starfleet is too evolved to bother worrying about miniskirts.

 

[Gotham Central]

I think it's a silly question. Why would the amount of respect a woman is entitled to be affected by how much of her skin is covered by fabric?
<SNiP!>

Thank you. Ever the one to point out the irony, or sexism in this case.

I noticed people neglected to mention this was the mid to late 60s! At the time, wearing a sexy outfit like that was considered 'liberated'. Remember, at the time women were to be virginal and pure 50s kitchen queens. Stepford wives. Women weren't supposed to like being sexy. That was bad. Sinful. It might seem silly today, those tiny skirts, but back then it was a symbol of female power. Sexual power. Really, scared the crap out of Nixon!

Go watch Mad Men. You'll be shocked.

In the 60's women wearing pants at work was still revolutionary because it was always assumed that professional for a woman was a skirt.

The key here is not about sexiness, but about a person getting proper professional respect while wearing a silly miniskirt. A prime example of what I'm talking about can be found in the film "A league of their own." The female baseball players were horrified to see that their "uniform" included a miniskirt. The idea being that the silly skirt prevented them from playing the game properly and ultimately reduced the respect that they deserved for doing the same work as the men.

The fact is, women wearing a uniform where they have to spend half their time concerned that their behind is literally showing are not going to get the same respect as a man wearing an outfit that does not have that obstacle. As i said, i find it hard to believe that a female captain would ever have worn the miniskirt. In fact the only reason that we ever saw a woman in pants was that they knew in the next scene that woman would be shown as old...and who wants to see an old woman in a miniskirt. Face it, the uniforms were designed to make the women sex objects not respected colleagues. If showing that much was supposed to be perfectly acceptable, then you would have seen the male crew wearing something equally revealing. Had someone suggested that Kirk command the Enterprise in a pair of short gym shorts and a tank top, you can bet that not only would the actors have complained, but someone would point out that he would not look professional.

 

[Gotham Central]

And the inevitable follow-up question - can you respect a man in this uniform?

The irony of course is how often this uniform got mocked. Because, you know, men would never wear something like that on duty.

 

[RyuRoots]

I think a better question is this: Is it easy to take someone seriously when they're wearing such a ridiculous uniform? Not at all in my opinion. We had the same issue with Deanna troi in most of TNG. I kept expecting some Starfleet character not on the ship to call her on it long before Jellico.

Disregarding how painfully badly women were handled in general in TOS (yeah yeah 60s, I know), any female character instantly has a negative penalty to the professionalism of their character due to that uniform if you ask me.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Could you imagine Jim Kirk wearing tiny gym shorts and a tank top to work?

Actually yes.

Mr. Ripped-Shirt himself...

Starfleet is too evolved to bother worrying about miniskirts.

Yeoman! Show a little respect, I'm your captain.

 

[sbk1234]

And the inevitable follow-up question - can you respect a man in this uniform?

No way!

 

[ToddPence]

Could I respect a woman in the woman in the female uniform? Absolutely. Could I respect a woman who chose to wear pants instead and deprive me of the opportunity to admire their natural assets? Probably less so.

(Seriously, this thread topic represents for me the essence of hypocritical feminism. I'm sorry, that's a tautology, isn't it?)

 

[Praetor]

I try to respect everyone. Clothing usually doesn't equate into it.

My thought too, so I'd say yes. I would accord her the respect she is due for her position; I also think that there is a certain degree of self-respect and formality (not quite the same thing as professionalism, IMO) that is required for more senior positions that the uniforms tend to contradict. But then again with TOS the uniform protocol seems to lean to casualness and personal comfort on board the ship.

I hate to say that it depends, but it does depend. If the required uniform was a micromini, I could get past that and still respect somebody - if the rules say "You've got to wear this," well, she'd have to wear it, right?

But if she chose to wear that skimpy thing...yeah, I might think less of her - not her intelligence or anything, but definitely her good sense, and I'd also wonder what message she thought she was sending. Wearing a skirt up to your butt doesn't say "I want you to respect me for my mind," does it? And if you're a Starfleet officer on duty, wouldn't that be what you want? Speaking as a woman (who works in a male-dominated office), it certainly is what you ought to want, IMO.

But even then - yes, that's right, there's still another facet to my "it depends" - there could be mitigating factors. There have been times (and the 1960s were one of those times) when you pretty much had to wear skirts at least somewhat short or else you'd look dowdy dowdy dowdy. But even back then, there was short...and then there was really, really short. And it was perfectly possible to look tres chic in skirts that were considerably longer than the Trek women wore - for examples, you don't need to look any farther than Diana Rigg in The Avengers (when she wasn't wearing her catsuit ) and Barbara Bain in Mission: Impossible. Those women looked fabulous and were, I assure you, at the height of fashion and yet, imagine, you couldn't see their butts. They looked, in fact, beautiful, fashionable, professional, sexy and yet also like perfect ladies. Why Trek didn't think its women could pull off sexy and professional just baffles me.

I'm torn between whether I would respect a woman more for saying 'the hell with it' and having the courage to wear the minidress instead of the pants because she wanted to, and between thinking 'what the heck's wrong with her that she wants to wear that?' Again, I think 'formality' is more the issue than 'professionalism' and I tend to think that Trek people would be very good at self-regulating and self-disciplining. Short sleeves, for example, seem less formal than a long sleeve Class A uniform, but are still okay duty attire.

Thinking of the minidress as the Trek equivalent of Casual Fridays (where Friday is whenever you want it to be) it doesn't seem so bad to me.

Further, I can't help but wonder what regulation there is keeping a man from wearing the minidress in TOS, if any? And what do the other two Andorian genders wear? And do people who look bad in them generally just not wear them, or do they wear them because they find them comfortable and don't care that they don't look good in it, or what others think?

There were other uniform options...

This option has been used by many women in fan productions if they didn't want to wear the miniskirt uniform.

While the actresses back then may not have had a choice in the matter, the evidence is that the in-universe characters did.

Definitely agreed.

I think a better question is this: Is it easy to take someone seriously when they're wearing such a ridiculous uniform? Not at all in my opinion. We had the same issue with Deanna troi in most of TNG. I kept expecting some Starfleet character not on the ship to call her on it long before Jellico.

Disregarding how painfully badly women were handled in general in TOS (yeah yeah 60s, I know), any female character instantly has a negative penalty to the professionalism of their character due to that uniform if you ask me.

I have to agree, but I have to also put forth that we're looking at this from a modern perspective. Presumably, in Trek time, people really don't care what other people wear and the definition of 'professional attire' varies. Again I think it's an issue of formality rather than professionalism.

But from our modern perspective, I hated Troi's dresses and jumpsuits and once I saw her in the uniform I wish it had been that way from the beginning because it seemed more formal and therefore more appropriate when she was on the bridge. In her office, who cares? It probably put crewmen and civilians at ease to talk to someone in a dress rather than a uniform.

"My face is up here, Yeoman."

I have to say I find Kirk's informal wraparounds a tad unprofessional, too.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Yes I could respect them. I've been lucky enough to have a very attractive boss in the past who often wore short skirts. Never affected my opinion of them, or my respect level.

 

[Gary Mitchell]

I'd put her on report for wearing a uniform that looked like that. I looks like she dug it out of the bottom of her clothes hamper.

 

[T'Bonz]

A micromini where panties (matching or not) are apt to peek out is not professional, imo.

A micro-mini is more of a dress for date or club night, not for wearing to work.

Well, I could respect a woman in a miniskirt...

And could imagine her in command or a position of authority too.

Professionally, her dress was wayyyyy too short. It needed to be about 4 inches longer and the boots were a bit much.

It's supposed to be a uniform, not a go-go clubbing outfit.

 

[Navaros]

I could totally respect women in the TOS uniforms. I never even knew there was a 'controversy' about this issue until I read about it on forums. Because I didn't see any reason whatsoever why it should be a controversy.

On the other hand, I'd have a very hard time respecting any women in a modern Trek uniform considering that the uniforms make them look like men.

As for Female Romulan Commander: hottest Trek woman ever, in the very best uniform ever. I'm serious.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

On the other hand, I'd have a very hard time respecting any women in a modern Trek uniform considering that the uniforms make them look like men.

 

[gastrof]

To be honest, I'd at first thought this was a question about the female uniforms in the new movie, until it hit me this is the TOS forum.

In the new movie, they've done their own version of making the women look "feminine". Look at the women's uniforms. No sleeves. The men have sleeves. The TOS female uniforms had sleeves, for cryin' out loud.

The V neck on the overshirt? Opens up MUCH more than on the guys' uniforms. What you see of the black undershirt (their version of the TOS black collars) is MUCH bigger than what you see on the men's. Of course, the TOS collars were bigger than on the men's too.

I don't like it. The women's uniforms should have been made to look JUST like the men's, with the possible exception of skirts in place of pants. I say this NOT in the name of "They should have changed NOTHING!", but because it just looks WRONG for the women to have no sleeves and the men to have them. Something very out of place about the whole thing. Can't really explain it in better words than that, I'm afraid.

The movie is making the women look far more "cute" or "girlie" than the TOS female uniforms ever did. And I'm a guy.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I did not buy the explanation that the uniforms reflected some form of liberation is that professional usually want the respect that comes with their position. That is why professional women both today and in the 60s either wore pants or more modest skirts in work environments. The female starfleet uniforms seem to work against that push for professional respect.

And that's the point. I have it from the lips of Grace Lee Whitney - at an Australian ST convention in the early 80s, while she was wearing a very short white skirt and cowboy boots:

The short uniform skirts, which actually had one leg wrapped in material so they couldn't ride up too far, were used because she wanted Bill Theiss to design a uniform to show off Rand's independence, professionalism, feminism and femininity; that women could show their legs proudly in the 23rd century, and still function as equals to men in the workplace of the future. She was very disappointed to have to wear Sally Kellerman's pants in the first TOS publicity shots.

I believe Twiggy made similar statements about the miniskirt when it first came out.