Tuvix

[Miss Chicken]

One point that hasn't been bought up is

What guarantee was there that Tuvok anf Neelix would be safely restored? What if it had failed and all three lives were lost?

If nothing was done at least Tuvix was 100% alive.

Another point is

Why did the Doctor refused to do it if it wasn't unethical or a wrong thing to do? The Doctor had in the past had always been ethical (which I don't think you can say about all of Janeway's actions).

 

[Unicron]

I'd have to rewatch the episode again to see whether anything was statistically said about the restoration procedure. As for the Doctor, he was acting on some of the grounds you've mentioned - that killing one person to "save" two against that person's will might not be ethical, though not making the attempt could also be seen in the same light. With Seven, it was less of a dilemma because she was not mentally capable of wanting to be an individual then, even though remaining Borg would have killed her.

What it comes down to is, there is no easy choice here. That the choice isn't easy doesn't mean the options don't all have ethical qualms that come with them. That's why, though I understand the dilemma about Janeway's choice, it still seems plausible to me and not murder.

 

[exodus]

One point that hasn't been bought up is

What guarantee was there that Tuvok anf Neelix would be safely restored? What if it had failed and all three lives were lost?

If nothing was done at least Tuvix was 100% alive.

Another point is

Why did the Doctor refused to do it if it wasn't unethical or a wrong thing to do? The Doctor had in the past had always been ethical (which I don't think you can say about all of Janeway's actions).

The agreement was between Tuvix, Janeway & the EMH, if the Doctor could find a cure to seperate the two safely then Tuvix would agree to the cure. Due to the Doctors reaction in "Latent Image" and his inability to accept the loss of a patient, he won't preform such a procedure unless he was absolutely sure. He's a computer medical program, so he mostly deals in absolutes.

The Doctor refused as I stated before, because he is programmed with and bound by the Hippocratic Oath to do no harm to any patient against their will. Because Tuvix refused treatment regardless of their previous agreement, the EMH can't operate because he can't override his programming of that Oath.

He later does in "Flesh & Blood", which is why Janeway considers him at that moment possably sentient.

 

[Bad Atom]

I still can't get over how utterly ridiculous the premise is, yet by the end it becomes a brilliant and moving episode.

What I want to know is why Tuvix wasn't willing to give up his life to bring Tuvok and Neelix back. If he had the same morals and values of both characters, why wasn't he willing to do the logical thing - "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one"? I wish that had been made clear.

Also, while Janeway's actions are certainly controversial, she goes about the procedure with an alarming coldness that makes it seem even worse. I don't know if it was an acting or directing issue, but it comes off very badly.

 

[kimc]

Also, while Janeway's actions are certainly controversial, she goes about the procedure with an alarming coldness that makes it seem even worse. I don't know if it was an acting or directing issue, but it comes off very badly.

Actually I thought it was well-done. Once Janeway made the call she had to shut down her emotions about it to get the job done. It was only afterwards in the corridor when she pauses that you can see what it cost her emotionally. Very subtle but beautifully done, imo.

 

[voyagerfan]

My opinion to this episode s that it can be likened to a bad reaction to a drug, (after all, in reality it was the plants pollen which interfered with the transporters) and Tuvix was the bad reaction to the pollen/transporters and the drug (the pollen) was used also to separate them as well.

Janeway is one of my fave captains, she was the only captain to be stranded in a completely new territory AND having to do all this, but as mentioned before Kirk was seperated so the matter had just arose again. Who actually took back B'Elanna's human/klingon forms and was that before this episode or was it later? I can't recall off the top of her head.

My own personal stance on the issue of Tuvix is that in the end, he wasn't wanted very much and Kes was calling for Neelix to come back. I think although it hurt janeway to do this, she did the best move to seperate the two as they were an unwanted side effect so to speak of biological chemicals. In the same way that Seven was bought out the collective, Tuvix was bought back into two, it would have been easier to treat two people than one and also most of the spoken thoughts were Tuvok's the actions were Neelix's and once they knew about the flower, they could see that it caused the malfunction and not the transporter buffer alone

 

[kimc]

Who actually took back B'Elanna's human/klingon forms and was that before this episode or was it later? I can't recall off the top of her head.

It was "Faces" and happened before "Tuvix". In that situation though the Klingon version of B'Elanna was shot but her DNA was needed by the human B'Elanna to stabilize HER DNA. That's how and why they were re-integrated.

 

[The Borg Queen]

The whole episode is stupid because it points out a serious flaw in transporter technology.

Chemical/biological reactions can happen while in a transporter stream.

This is stupid because it implies the first time you try to transport a pressurised container, or transport two highly reactive substances at the same time, they'd explode!

It's like the writers don't even pay attention to what they write...

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

doesn't Doc clearly state that he considers restoring Neelix and Tuvok to be murder??

i assume he later changed his mind (or janeway altered his memory!) since in "Author, Author" the Doc told Janeway:

"As far as I know, Captain, you haven't executed any of my patients."

 

[kimc]

doesn't Doc clearly state that he considers restoring Neelix and Tuvok to be murder??

i assume he later changed his mind (or janeway altered his memory!) since in "Author, Author" the Doc told Janeway:

"As far as I know, Captain, you haven't executed any of my patients."

I forgot about that line. Interesting.

Perhaps the Doctor hesitated to perform the procedure because it was so experimental and there was a risk of losing all three? If that were the case then that would explain the "Author Author" line.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

doesn't Doc clearly state that he considers restoring Neelix and Tuvok to be murder??

i assume he later changed his mind (or janeway altered his memory!) since in "Author, Author" the Doc told Janeway:

"As far as I know, Captain, you haven't executed any of my patients."

I forgot about that line. Interesting.

Perhaps the Doctor hesitated to perform the procedure because it was so experimental and there was a risk of losing all three? If that were the case then that would explain the "Author Author" line.

perhaps he relied on good 'ol vulcan logic about the needs of the many (not just Neelix and Tuvoc, but the crew and Tuvoc's family and the safety of the ship overall) and all that.....

of course, the obvious answer is that Tuvix wouldn't have time to be Tactical Officer/Security Chief and do "A Briefing With Neelix" aka "Good Morning, Voyager" --- a show that Janeway loooved and the Doctor had his own segment on ("Hints for Healthful Living") !!

 

[Miss Chicken]

doesn't Doc clearly state that he considers restoring Neelix and Tuvok to be murder??

i assume he later changed his mind (or janeway altered his memory!) since in "Author, Author" the Doc told Janeway:

"As far as I know, Captain, you haven't executed any of my patients."

It was Janeway not the Doctor who performed the procedure on Tuvix so his statement in Author, Author was correct.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

doesn't Doc clearly state that he considers restoring Neelix and Tuvok to be murder??

i assume he later changed his mind (or janeway altered his memory!) since in "Author, Author" the Doc told Janeway:

"As far as I know, Captain, you haven't executed any of my patients."

It was Janeway not the Doctor who performed the procedure on Tuvix so his statement in Author, Author was correct.

no, his Author Author statement is incorrect because Janeway executed one of his patients

 

[Miss Chicken]

doesn't Doc clearly state that he considers restoring Neelix and Tuvok to be murder??

i assume he later changed his mind (or janeway altered his memory!) since in "Author, Author" the Doc told Janeway:

"As far as I know, Captain, you haven't executed any of my patients."

It was Janeway not the Doctor who performed the procedure on Tuvix so his statement in Author, Author was correct.

no, his Author Author statement is incorrect because Janeway executed one of his patients

Sorry, misread the quote. I read it as "I haven't executed any of my patients'

Yes, Janeway had executed one of his patients (at least in the Doctor's original view) so the statement in Author, Author is indeed incorrect.

Or else the writers have a worst memory than the fans do.

 

[Akiraprise]

Or else the writers have a worst memory than the fans do.

I never doubted this fact for an instance.

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

maybe the Doc didn't want to rub it in her face, cuz she probably felt bad about it.

 

[McCoy]

Or maybe he also believed, as apparently everyone else on board did, that Tuvix was an accident that had to be reversed, but because he refused the treatment the Dr. was ethically bound to refrain from administering it.

I always used to think that Doc's solemnity while delivering this information was due to his disapproval of Janeway's decision, but I think now that it's equally possible he simply regretted that due to his programming he was forced to leave it in Janeway's hands to carry out the procedure.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Or the fact that the Doctor didn't "remember" was because the writers are idiots.

It wouldn't be the first time...

Seriously, is a small nod to continuity too much to ask?

 

[c0rnedfr0g]

Or the fact that the Doctor didn't "remember" was because the writers are idiots.

It wouldn't be the first time...

Seriously, is a small nod to continuity too much to ask?

continuity doesn't seem to stretch far beyond the last few episodes of that same season. casual audiences can't be expected to remember that far back, and heaven forbid everyone should not be able to pick up every single reference

 

[The Borg Queen]

Or the fact that the Doctor didn't "remember" was because the writers are idiots.

It wouldn't be the first time...

Seriously, is a small nod to continuity too much to ask?

continuity doesn't seem to stretch far beyond the last few episodes of that same season. casual audiences can't be expected to remember that far back, and heaven forbid everyone should not be able to pick up every single reference

Nobody's asking them to remember. A simple comment like "Well... except Tuvix" would have been enough.

The fans who knew what he was talking about would have remembered the events of that episode, that casual viewers would have had that line go right over their heads so it doesn't matter, and those who didn't know about Tuvix but were intrigued could have gone and found out and thus have been introduced to a new Voyager episode (if they were interested).