Kirk IS DEAD! He died on Veridian III. The Shatnerverse in not part of the regular continuity. As far as the TV shows, movies and mailine books are concerned Kirk is still dead. The only way that you see kirk now is in flashback stories set in the mid 23rd century. Janeway has the exact same option.
Spoiler! DONT HATE ME! I liked FC
- Thread starter KimMH
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Kirk IS DEAD! He died on Veridian III. The Shatnerverse in not part of the regular continuity. As far as the TV shows, movies and mailine books are concerned Kirk is still dead. The only way that you see kirk now is in flashback stories set in the mid 23rd century. Janeway has the exact same option.
The difference is that Kirk was allowed a long life with lots of fulfillment, Janeway was cut short in her prime. It's a huge difference.
Kirk died as his life was winding down, Janeway was killed just as she was embarking on a relationship. You are comparing apples to oranges.
Brit
^^
I agree with Brit here.
If we look at the facts here, even if we don't accept the Shatnerverse books and state that Kirk is dead, there's o much more room for books and stories for Kirk than it is for Janeway.
It's possible to have at least 30 years of stories for Kirk while there are only about 12 years of stories for Janeway (including the Voyager seasons and the after-Endgame seasons).
Not to mention that I find Kirk's death in that movie meaningless and another example of unnecessary character destruction. Why bring him back for that one and only movie just to kill him off? And the story wasn't good either.
But killing off Janeway was even more meaningless and unnecessary.
I agree with Brit here.
If we look at the facts here, even if we don't accept the Shatnerverse books and state that Kirk is dead, there's o much more room for books and stories for Kirk than it is for Janeway.
It's possible to have at least 30 years of stories for Kirk while there are only about 12 years of stories for Janeway (including the Voyager seasons and the after-Endgame seasons).
Not to mention that I find Kirk's death in that movie meaningless and another example of unnecessary character destruction. Why bring him back for that one and only movie just to kill him off? And the story wasn't good either.
But killing off Janeway was even more meaningless and unnecessary.
I really enjoyed this book. If you're a Voyager fan you should read it if you can stomach dead Janeway (I know some of us can't). The characters are flushed out and real for the first time in I don't know how long!
And KB does a really good job handling KJ's death.
That's all I'm going to say (hopefully)
And KB does a really good job handling KJ's death.
That's all I'm going to say (hopefully)
The difference is that Janeway could have enjoyed said fulfillment and yes, even love, with Chakotay but chose to lock a chastity belt around her granny panties instead. She chose to do that, knowing that any day in the Delta Quadrant could be her last. She not only denied herself happiness but she denied happiness to Chakotay as well. And for reasons that boggle the mind he settled for that. At least Kirk had the balls to never deny himself anything, often to his own detriment, but at least he lived.
I agree with neogothboy. People die, and it often happens when we least expect it, and always too soon. I like and respect Janeway more now that she made the ultimate sacrifice.
I remember the first indy comic that I read where people were in dangerous positions and died as a result. What hurt more was that they would die after I'd grown attached to them (they'd been developed well). The strong emotion of loss makes for a great story, and a realistic one.
That janeway died makes me actually consider reading the book, and I'd never considered reading a trek book before. I personally have always been afraid of wasting my limited time on something that may not be canon and may only end up being fanfic.
I remember the first indy comic that I read where people were in dangerous positions and died as a result. What hurt more was that they would die after I'd grown attached to them (they'd been developed well). The strong emotion of loss makes for a great story, and a realistic one.
That janeway died makes me actually consider reading the book, and I'd never considered reading a trek book before. I personally have always been afraid of wasting my limited time on something that may not be canon and may only end up being fanfic.
I know there are guidelines to writing these books. However I also know that PAD didn't really like the series so...
I wish the hell I saved the email I got from PAD when I commented on his NF books and asked him about maybe future writing of Voyager characters. It was pretty much...thanks but no thanks. Course he could have been just ticked I even mentioned NF in the same breathe as Voyager.
Granted that was about 6 years ago and I probably deleted it because I find PADs NF series to be great reads but his ego a wee bit large in some of his interviews.
Look I love PAD's NF series, even though he killed off one of my favs, but I still feel he may have taken a wee bit of glee in killing her off because she is a character that people feel strongly about good or bad.
Kirk lived long and prospered (for the most part), Picard's still going strong, Sisko's off doing his thing, Archer had his time and Janeway, well, she gets to go off with a Q?
That was beyond dumb in my book because the Q are now beyond dumb having gone way past their time and quite frankly turning into cartoons.
That's just my opinion and I don't expect people to agree with it.
I like Kathryn, tolerated Janeway (much like the character of Kirk it probably had more to do with the actor than the character). I looked forward to finding Kathryn again, much like I did Kirk, in the books especilly when you remove the face and input of the actor and can start somewhat fresh with the character.
I had years and years of Kirk books not so much with Kathryn. So I'm a little ticked and I'm gonna claim that as my right as a fan to be ticked. I'll get over it not like I'm going to open a vein in protest.
The book isn't bad, it's quite good, I enjoyed it and I'll read her other works because I like her style.
I just won't look for Kathryn.
You don't understand, it is a confirmed fact that it was her idea and that she explicitly told him to off Janeway.
It's also a known fact that PAD doesn't like Voyager, but in this case there's no correlation between those two facts.
Here's a quote of Peter David from his blog (you have to scroll down a bit) about the topic:
Once again, I do understand, its not brain surgery.
His idea of heroic and mine differ - my prerogative to feel the way I do as it is his and others to feel he gave her a proper send off.
He sees heroic - I see idiotic.
I also understand that he and any author could gracefully and respectfully declined to write the book given the guidelines and someone else could have written it. Could have been better, could have been worst.
After all not like they would have taken back his right to continue being a part of the Trek family.
And just so I make this clear - its not so much about PAD as the author, its about the way it was done. IMO if this is the scenario the people in charge threw out there and said "See what you can do with this." then I can only scratch my head and still say "Huh?"
In the end it doesn't really matter because, in the words of Dr. Leonard McCoy, "She's dead Jim."
You're suggesting that PAD or any other author should have gracefully and respectfully turned down a paycheck? TrekLit is work-for-hire. People gotta eat, bills gotta be paid.
I said they could have - didn't say they would have - I do live in the real world, a jobs a job.
I would never suggest that a writer turn down a job. However, if they do take on a job where killing off a character will create some controversy, they should expect that they will get criticized for it and take some heat from the fans. They should at least be ready with their response as to why they went along with the decision and be prepared to defend it, imo.
^^ I disagree. Ultimately a writer is answerable to only two people: himself and his editor. He certainly doesn't have to defend his position to the fans, nor should he bend to their will. The work must speak for itself. We fans like to think we occupy a special place in the grand scheme of things but we really don't. We're a niche group. The book-buying public at large is much MUCH bigger than we are.
Well when I say "defend it", I don't mean in a debating sense, (e.g. Janeways' death was ok because..), I mean in a way that they are professional in their responses. They should expect some backlash and be ready for it, that's all. I don't think we fans have a special niche, except for the fact that we are fans and have opinions that may be somewhat representative of other readers. I know that you guys are all sick of discussing this right now, but I know many others who simply threw in the towel on Voyager Relaunches because of this. They won't buy the book and won't even waste their time posting here or anywhere else on the subject.
The book-buying public doesn't necessarily post on message boards either, however a few have posted their reviews on other sites and they are a little disjointed over the death of Janeway and are expecting her back even though they loved the book. Some may not realize that there's no plan to bring her back. I find this all pretty interesting actually.
The book-buying public doesn't necessarily post on message boards either, however a few have posted their reviews on other sites and they are a little disjointed over the death of Janeway and are expecting her back even though they loved the book. Some may not realize that there's no plan to bring her back. I find this all pretty interesting actually.
That's true. But overall the people who bother to post about the books either way (positive or negative), are a minority in comparison to those people who read the books, but don't bother to talk about it on the Internet.
As KRAD likes to say (paraphrased): Don't mistake a few people bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend.
But in that case the author have to live with the fact that he will be hated by the fans and that his books may not sell as much as he as the editor wanted.
If Star Trek fans is a "niche group", then those in charge of the different "relaunches" should really put down some efforts in trying to keep the fans instead of alienating them by killing off their favorites.
As for "Destiny" and "Full Circle", I don't have to read the books to know that I will dislike them.
Yeah. That's a very good point. I guess the only indication would be book sales. I think there's a definite interest for Voyager novels and having killed off Janeway peaked the interest in those who might not have cared about a Voyager novel one way or another. Couple that with the fact that Full Circle has gotten good reviews and one would expect that both Full Circle and Unworthy will do very well. No one will know whether there really is a mandate for Janeway's return for quite a while.
That's true. But overall the people who bother to post about the books either way (positive or negative), are a minority in comparison to those people who read the books, but don't bother to talk about it on the Internet.
As KRAD likes to say (paraphrased): Don't mistake a few people bitching on the Internet for any kind of trend.
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