Voyager - Second Chances

[Praetor]

Sadly, Janeway became Annorax herself by the end of the show. She became a lunatic willing to destroy a timeline in which the Federation is prospering and most of her crew is home and well... in order to save a select handful of her friends.

I've never picked up on that parallel before. Interesting, and yes, rather sad.

One of the reasons why I detest "Endgame" and I am a fan of the show.

As for those who aren't fans constructive criticism is welcome - flames and trolling are not.

Well said on both counts, dutiful mod.

Wouldn't 'Endgame' have had more emotional resonance and been overall more logical had Captain Janeway realized what the future version of herself had become, and actually refused to go along with it? It's like 'Nemesis' but better.

 

[mirandafave]

Wouldn't 'Endgame' have had more emotional resonance and been overall more logical had Captain Janeway realized what the future version of herself had become, and actually refused to go along with it? It's like 'Nemesis' but better.

Thank goodness you threw in that wink! Was going to send the white coats! And yes that would have been more satisfactory - not sure how they'd have gotten home but it would cut down on some of the flak Janeway received.

 

[Brit]

Ah, but why did the future self become that other person. I think the biggest mistake is confusing Captain Janeway with the old Admiral Janeway, in a lot of respects they were actually two different characters.

Brit

 

[Praetor]

Wouldn't 'Endgame' have had more emotional resonance and been overall more logical had Captain Janeway realized what the future version of herself had become, and actually refused to go along with it? It's like 'Nemesis' but better.

Thank goodness you threw in that wink! Was going to send the white coats! And yes that would have been more satisfactory - not sure how they'd have gotten home but it would cut down on some of the flak Janeway received.

Who says they have to get home right away? Just have the last act be a flash forward to the time period the Admiral is from, only to have us find that the crew made it home years later, but they have a much more pleasant future without compromising themselves.

Or scrap the whole episode and do a quarter season arc about it.

Ah, but why did the future self become that other person. I think the biggest mistake is confusing Captain Janeway with the old Admiral Janeway, in a lot of respects they were actually two different characters.

Brit

I agree. The implied changes that seemed to have driven the Admiral who she was seemed to have completely changed her personality from when she was Captain Janeway.

Alternate quantum realities perhaps?

 

[Brit]

It's the natural order to be influenced by our experience. Admiral Janeway's experience made her what she was and she saw a way to change that. I think the problem is also a lot of people see her changing the future as a bad thing and for all we know it actually was a very good thing.

It's apparent that she either destroyed the Borg or set them back to the point that millions of lives were saved by her actions. The Temporal Integrity Commission wasn't there to stop her suggesting that she was actually fixing an already altered time line. In other words the corrected time line was the real time line in the first place.

Brit

 

[neogothboy74]

Loved TNG after it stopped being gay

The Next Generation was never gay enough, IMO. Not that any of the Treks were. DS9 was close enough though, which is another reason why it's a favorite of mine.

 

[Praetor]

It's the natural order to be influenced by our experience. Admiral Janeway's experience made her what she was and she saw a way to change that. I think the problem is also a lot of people see her changing the future as a bad thing and for all we know it actually was a very good thing.

It's apparent that she either destroyed the Borg or set them back to the point that millions of lives were saved by her actions. The Temporal Integrity Commission wasn't there to stop her suggesting that she was actually fixing an already altered time line. In other words the corrected time line was the real time line in the first place.

Brit

But it also seemed rather apparent that, aside from deaths and the journey home taking longer, the future she came from was, as Captain Janeway put it, 'not that bad.' I had a feeling the Borg weren't much of an issue for them either.

Admiral Janeway was whacked to be willing to change countless lives (possibly negatively) just for 2+ people. That right there is proof she had been driven insane with guilt.

You are right the fact that the Temporal Integrity Commission didn't appear to interfere seems to confirm that Voyager getting home early was a part of 'established' history but that seems to create another paradox in and of itself. And for all we know, they 'interfered' and set things right after we saw the episode air.

 

[JB2005]

It's the natural order to be influenced by our experience. Admiral Janeway's experience made her what she was and she saw a way to change that. I think the problem is also a lot of people see her changing the future as a bad thing and for all we know it actually was a very good thing.

It's apparent that she either destroyed the Borg or set them back to the point that millions of lives were saved by her actions. The Temporal Integrity Commission wasn't there to stop her suggesting that she was actually fixing an already altered time line. In other words the corrected time line was the real time line in the first place.

Brit

But it also seemed rather apparent that, aside from deaths and the journey home taking longer, the future she came from was, as Captain Janeway put it, 'not that bad.' I had a feeling the Borg weren't much of an issue for them either.

Admiral Janeway was whacked to be willing to change countless lives (possibly negatively) just for 2+ people. That right there is proof she had been driven insane with guilt.

You are right the fact that the Temporal Integrity Commission didn't appear to interfere seems to confirm that Voyager getting home early was a part of 'established' history but that seems to create another paradox in and of itself. And for all we know, they 'interfered' and set things right after we saw the episode air.

"Set a course for home"
== Credits Role ==
(What we didn't see)
Kim: Captain, we're being hailed, it's Captain Braxton.
Janeway: Oh no

Braxton: Sorry Kathryn, can't have this, back to the Delta Quadrant you go.

Kim: Captain there's some kind of coherent tetryon beam behind us...

 

[neogothboy74]

It's the natural order to be influenced by our experience. Admiral Janeway's experience made her what she was and she saw a way to change that. I think the problem is also a lot of people see her changing the future as a bad thing and for all we know it actually was a very good thing.

It's apparent that she either destroyed the Borg or set them back to the point that millions of lives were saved by her actions. The Temporal Integrity Commission wasn't there to stop her suggesting that she was actually fixing an already altered time line. In other words the corrected time line was the real time line in the first place.

Brit

But it also seemed rather apparent that, aside from deaths and the journey home taking longer, the future she came from was, as Captain Janeway put it, 'not that bad.' I had a feeling the Borg weren't much of an issue for them either.

Admiral Janeway was whacked to be willing to change countless lives (possibly negatively) just for 2+ people. That right there is proof she had been driven insane with guilt.

You are right the fact that the Temporal Integrity Commission didn't appear to interfere seems to confirm that Voyager getting home early was a part of 'established' history but that seems to create another paradox in and of itself. And for all we know, they 'interfered' and set things right after we saw the episode air.

"Set a course for home"
== Credits Role ==
(What we didn't see)
Kim: Captain, we're being hailed, it's Captain Braxton.
Janeway: Oh no

Braxton: Sorry Kathryn, can't have this, back to the Delta Quadrant you go.

Kim: Captain there's some kind of coherent tetryon beam behind us...

lol

 

[Brit]

And for all we know, they 'interfered' and set things right after we saw the episode air.

Well apparently they didn't because Admiral Janeway was in "Nemesis." It's all speculation and all interpretation, anyone's is as valid as another's. What I don't like is the statement that in "Endgame" Captain Janeway should have been punished for something Admiral Janeway did.

My daughter just pointed out that most of the time in "Trek" when the timeline had to be fixed, the fixes were never perfect but rather a point of settling for good enough and she used the NG episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" as an example. The example she gives of a close to perfect fix would have been "Year of Hell" or perhaps "Time and Again."

You all should try living with a fan that is as big a fan as you are, makes for a lot of interesting conversations.

Brit

 

[Praetor]

And for all we know, they 'interfered' and set things right after we saw the episode air.

Well apparently they didn't because Admiral Janeway was in "Nemesis."

But that could mean that the timeline changed even more when it was 'fixed' and they got home even earlier, hence the promotion...

It's all speculation and all interpretation, anyone's is as valid as another's. What I don't like is the statement that in "Endgame" Captain Janeway should have been punished for something Admiral Janeway did.

Totally agreed on both counts. It was Admiral Kathy who was nuts, not Captain Kathy. Captain Kathy could be argued to be bipolar, but that's just because of inconsistent writing.

My daughter just pointed out that most of the time in "Trek" when the timeline had to be fixed, the fixes were never perfect but rather a point of settling for good enough and she used the NG episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" as an example. The example she gives of a close to perfect fix would have been "Year of Hell" or perhaps "Time and Again."

That is very true, but in this case Admiral Janeway was altering her past, not correcting it. That's why I think she should have been punished. But she died with the Borg Queen, so there may be a sense of karmic balance there. Presumably, if the future Admiral Janeway came from continued to exist in the same quantum reality after she travelled back, the Starfleet of that future did not feel it necessary to go back and alter anything. (Or did they? )

The multiple quantum reality explanation of time travel pimped by the makers of the new film keeps looking better and better...

You all should try living with a fan that is as big a fan as you are, makes for a lot of interesting conversations.

Brit

That does sound fun. I have never had the benefit.

 

[TheGodBen]

It's the natural order to be influenced by our experience. Admiral Janeway's experience made her what she was and she saw a way to change that. I think the problem is also a lot of people see her changing the future as a bad thing and for all we know it actually was a very good thing.

The problem is that time and time again we have been told that you don't mess with the timeline. If the timeline has gone wrong then you fix it, you even sacrifice yourself to restore it. You don't go back in time to change the course of a war, you certainly don't back back in time to save your BFF. Just look at Timeless, Capt LaForge was sent to destroy the Delta Flyer because Kim and Chakotay made an attempt to change the timeline in a minor way.

Changing the timeline is illegal for a reason; you don't frak with the very nature of reality.

Unless your name is Kathryn Janeway is which case the writers will gloss over your very serious crime.

In Admiral Janeway's timeline Seven was dead, Chakotay was depressed until his death, Tuvok was insane and Janeway was also, arguably, insane. But what about Torres? She seemed to have a successful position as a diplomat. Tom was a successful writer. Kim was captain of his own ship, his dream job. Doctor Jim was happily married. We should ignore these people's happiness just because the almighty Janeway decided what was best and screw anybody who attempts to stop her?

Captain Janeway was complicit in the crimes of Admiral Janeway and deserved to be stripped of her command for so blatantly messing with existence as we know it. But no, she gets a pass because... hell, I don't even know.

Endgame was a terrible episode, I'm no fan of Voyager, but it deserved better than that.

 

[Praetor]

I would whittle it down even further, GB, to the principle of the matter: don't play God.

In sci-fi and particularly Star Trek, time travel has rarely been treated as the ginormous burden/responsibility that it would actually be. Instead, it's often used as a dramatic deus ex machina.

 

[TheGodBen]

I would whittle it down even further, GB, to the principle of the matter: don't play God.

In sci-fi and particularly Star Trek, time travel has rarely been treated as the ginormous burden/responsibility that it would actually be. Instead, it's often used as a dramatic deus ex machina.

Agreed completely.

The ease of time travel in Trek is a huge plot hole for every one of the series. A rogue Klingon could easily go back in time and convince the Klingons to conquer Earth during the Enterprise era, the Dominion could send a fleet back in time to the beginning of the war and capture DS9 before the mine-field went up thus ensuring that the UFP was defeated. The only thing that could stop such horrific events would be that every single alien race who knows how to do time travel made an agreement not to play god, as your rightly put it, with destiny.

So when a supposedly upstanding Starfleet captain so wilfully ignores her obligation to history then it opens a huge ethical can of worms. One of the things that has struck me in my rewatch is how Janeway is a pretty good captain in those early seasons, but Endgame completely ruined her character for me.

 

[Praetor]

There is no 'Endgame.' There is only Zuul.

What does bother me about Captain Janeway is how willingly she goes along with her future self at first. 'Temporal Prime Directive' assumed she wasn't bonkers in the future, blah blah blah. Okay. But then she finds out that her plan is to get the crew home early, that it's not some special 'save the future universe' mission, and then somehow Admiral Kathy convinces her to go along with it? 'Have our cake and eat it too?'

Hell no. That's completely inconsistent.

This is the woman who blew up the crew's only way home to uphold the Prime Directive for a two races she had never before encountered and never would have again had they gone home, yet she's okay with altering countless billions of lives in countless unforeseen ways, specifically those closest to her?

Ridiculous. She wouldn't do that, at least the Janeway depicted for the vast majority of the series, wouldn't. She has her ups and downs, but she's generally consistent in her Starfleet non-interference principles except for a few choice situations that I won't go into.

That leaves us two options:
1) Janeway is nowhere near the same woman she was at the beginning of the show (and probably should be locked up)
2) We ignore this episode

I vote for two.

I think, however, if part of Admiral Kathy's mission had been to avert a 'Terminator'-style post-apocalyptic, Borg-devastated future as well (yeah, I know, done to death already) Captain Kathy would have gone along with it.

 

[mirandafave]

Changing the timeline is illegal for a reason; you don't frak with the very nature of reality.

Unless your name is Kathryn Janeway is which case the writers will gloss over your very serious crime.

Or one might argue ... unless your name is Spock and you're in a new movie

 

[Praetor]

Changing the timeline is illegal for a reason; you don't frak with the very nature of reality.

Unless your name is Kathryn Janeway is which case the writers will gloss over your very serious crime.

Or one might argue ... unless your name is Spock and you're in a new movie

Spoiler: Except that apparently

the time travel is an accident.

 

[mirandafave]

Changing the timeline is illegal for a reason; you don't frak with the very nature of reality.

Unless your name is Kathryn Janeway is which case the writers will gloss over your very serious crime.

Or one might argue ... unless your name is Spock and you're in a new movie

Spoiler: Except that apparently

the time travel is an accident.

No! Seriously!

Spoiler: ?

Like took a left by accident?

 

[Praetor]

Or one might argue ... unless your name is Spock and you're in a new movie

Spoiler: Except that apparently

the time travel is an accident.

No! Seriously!

Spoiler: ?

Like took a left by accident?

Spoiler: Like

Got sucked into a singularity created by an imploding star. Not sure how true it is.

 

[mirandafave]

Spoiler: please no

Hope not ... I'd like to think Spock's motives are either logical in origin, or based on emotion - probably camouflaged by Spock as logical