john titor
Captain
Hey are you psychic? I actually do wear sunglasses and a leather jacket while smoking cigars. That is incredible, you have impressed John Titor. Consider this an astounding achievement.
Voyager - Second Chances
- Thread starter Sokar
- Start date
Hey are you psychic? I actually do wear sunglasses and a leather jacket while smoking cigars. That is incredible, you have impressed John Titor. Consider this an astounding achievement.
Bashing a show is not the same thing as bashing its fans, and if you think it is then you need to relax and not takes things so seriously.
If I want to say "Voyager is stupid" then I am perfectly entitled to. If I want to breed some albino shouting gorillas to scream it from the rooftops then the only thing stopping me are animal protection laws. However, if I was to say "Voyager fans are stupid" then I would be crossing a line by insulting people and not a thing.
I'm a big fan of both DS9, but if you want to post a comment saying that it is garbage then that is your right and I would never dare to try and stop you for holding an opinion other than my own. John titor did not insult Voyager or Enterprise fans, he insulted the shows themselves, and if you choose to overreact and be personally offended by someone else's opinion of a television show then I have a duty to make light of the situation in order to make you loosen up.
I'm a big DS9 fan and I consider Voyager to be my least favourite Trek series, but I love the Voyager forum because you can have some great debates here. All the other Trek related forums can get a little sycophantic, but the Voyager forum has a lot of people who love the show and a lot of people who hate the show so it leads to interesting topics.NCC-1701-B said:
I have a thread here called "A Hater Revisits Voyager" and I'm using that thread to view each episode and point out what I think they got wrong and what they got right. Some people do come here just to bash, but a lot of us try to criticise the show in a more constructive manner.
Excellent, another merit badge earned!
Now if only I knew how to sew it onto my shirt. 
It sounds like you have a lot in common with Voyager and Enterprise. No wonder you're hanging out here!
And you cannot really say how passionately someone can appreciate his or hers favorite show and what may or may not hurt other people's feelings.
Good manners don't cost a thing. And sometimes people seek so desperately attention online (not referring to you specifically) that they say almost anything to get a response from others. Being ignored in online discussions is simply unacceptable. It seems that on TrekBBS many are such "attention whores", to be honest.
That is not my consideration. If someone has an unhealthy love for a TV show and they cannot accept anybody being critical of it without being personally offended then that is their problem, not mine.
There are many people out there who hate Voyager, unhealthily so. They loath it with a burning passion. Are you saying that nobody should ever give Voyager a glowing review just in case you hurt the feelings of a person who hated the show? Of course you wouldn't because it is a ridiculous concept, and if you look at the matter objectively then you would realise that not being critical of a TV show in case somebody likes it is just as ridiculous.
Personal insults are out of order, but you should never, ever, ever censor your feelings about a thing in case you hurt the feelings of one of its fans. You wouldn't do it about a piece of music, you wouldn't do it about politics and you certainly shouldn't do it for a television show.
Now I had better get off this soap-box before my fear of heights kicks in.
But then who are you to say if the love of anything is unhealthy or not, maybe it's the hatred of anything that is unhealthy.
There are always two sides to any argument, and one of the things everyone should remember is that there are real people at all the keyboards, making posts (ok some of them may be more than one person).
So the question is what would you say to a person's face? You'll find that you will moderate what you say to a point. That's not saying that you give up your point of view.
The other question is why if you loath a thing do you pay any attention to it in the first place. If you loath Voyager then obviously you shouldn't be posting on a Voyager board where people actually like it. This is what we mean by polite.
You can hate anything, but you need to make allowances for people that like it.
Brit
Why draw the line there? Maybe having an average opinion of a thing is unhealthy. Maybe feeling indifferent about a thing is unhealthy. Maybe completely ignoring a thing is unhealthy. Who is to say?
If you read my post then you would see that I already commented that there are people who have an unhealthy hatred for Voyager, but that doesn't mean that some people don't have an excessive level of love for it.
And one of the things you should remember is that Voyager is not a person, it is a television show which was created to entertain people, and no amount of criticism is going to make a television show cry. If someone is so overly invested in the show that they cannot tolerate someone who has a critical opinion then that is not the fault of the critic and it is not the concern of the critic.
Like I have said, I love DS9, but if someone insults the show then it is no skin off my back. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone is entitled to express their opinion so long as it does not turn into insults aimed at actual posters on the board.
I would say it to a person's face and I have done so repeatedly in the past. I was even in a relationship with a fan of Voyager, but my love for her didn't prevent me from expressing myself. She didn't really care if I said the show was rubbish, and it didn't bother me too much when she said DS9 was boring.
Because Voyager is part of Star Trek and Star Trek attracts many fans who like disparate things. Most Trek fans have tried watching each of the series, some Trek fans (such as myself) have watched all of the series, and every Trek fan likes to air their opinions. I personally think that Voyager is a blight on all of Star Trek and as a Star Trek fan I see no problem with me expressing that opinion.
No, that must never happen. You should never insult someone based on what TV show they like, but you must never censor yourself from your opinion in case you offend someone.
I am a liberal, and I would never censor myself just because a conservative might be offended that I think Bush was a terrible President. I am an atheist, and I would never allow Christians to silence my opinion that some parts of the Bible are blatantly immoral. I am a heterosexual, and I would never accept that the existence of gay people means that I should never say that I am not attracted to men.
No two people are the same, we all disagree on things and like different things from one another. That is something to be celebrated, not stamped down upon. What is needed in this world is more tolerance and less censorship.
Anybody with that kind of hatred about an entertainment venue like a TV series has a serious problem. They've got major issues in their life and are misguided about venting their frustrations. So, they find a little BBS somewhere and amplify their distaste for a particular subject, wait for the responses after laying the bait, and then go in with full guns to incite a verbal brawl. A petty agenda, if you ask me.
Everybody has their own ranking for each series of Star Trek. If one falls at the bottom, then it serves as a measure of comparison for embracing those above it. If Voyager is that series, then rejoice and go elsewhere to talk about the series you DO like. This is not a video game where you seek out what you want to hate and kill it. If you feel the need to do that, up your video game intake and don't waste other people's time.
I'm sorry, but I thought this board was a place to discuss 'Voyager'. Not a 'Voyager Lovers Only Club". Not a place to sing the praises of Voyager (while ignoring all it's flaws) and ignore or attack the posts of people who's posts about Voyager are different than your own. I know there are threads by Voyager fans here in which they complain about this and that about that show, but that's the way of it - people complain and sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it's not - but as long as we're all talking about Voyager I thought we were all basically on the same page. As long as people aren't insulting other people then I don't see a problem. Godben isn't attacking anyone, and I think he's making excellent points. I don't agree with everything he says, but I'm glad he's here. And he's being critical of the series, not the people who like it.
Take the above exchange for example. John Titor expresses his feelings about the shows. Granted, it's not very deep or constructive, but he expresses his feelings about the shows themselves and not the people that watch them. I don't agree with him (as I find The Next Generation almost impossible to rewatch, though I loved it when it aired - and I rather love the latter seasons of Enterprise). I also didn't love the anthropomorphical metaphore, which seemed to blur the boundaries between the shows and those that watch them, even if it did so without actually crossing said boundaries. I wasn't offended by what he said. He's entitled to his own opinion, and he wasn't attacking me personally, even though I'm an Enterprise fan; he was expressing his opinion of the series, which just happens to be different than mine. But he basically says that Voyager & Enterprise are 'nasty and irrational, moronic & bumbling, prone to the most terrible gaffs you could imagine.' No big.
I was however shocked when kimc then compared him (a person) to the qualities he just named about two tv shows. kimc did it with 'a smile and wink emoticon' but still took something that was aimed at a tv show (which has no feelings to hurt) and then aimed it at a person (who obviously has emtions). Even if kimc was kidding, the comparison was made. The little wink seems akin to saying "no offense but..." right before someone says something horribly offensive. Of course this is an online discussion which lacks the subtle expressions of real time debate so it's possible that nothing offensive was intended - it's just a very slippery slope...that I think should be avoided at all costs. But maybe that's just me being overly cautious as someone accused me of being only last night.
From the context of the sentence in the opening post Sokar doesn't seem to be using the word gay to mean happy. He seems to be using the word gay to mean something to be avoided; something unworthy of attention or love - which implies even without intent that gay people are unworthy of attention of love. Sadly, I have to wonder if the opening remark had been racist (instead of homophobic) if this thread would still be open at all?
It sounds like you have a lot in common with Voyager and Enterprise. No wonder you're hanging out here!
Take the above exchange for example. John Titor expresses his feelings about the shows. Granted, it's not very deep or constructive, but he expresses his feelings about the shows themselves and not the people that watch them. I don't agree with him (as I find The Next Generation almost impossible to rewatch, though I loved it when it aired - and I rather love the latter seasons of Enterprise). I also didn't love the anthropomorphical metaphore, which seemed to blur the boundaries between the shows and those that watch them, even if it did so without actually crossing said boundaries. I wasn't offended by what he said. He's entitled to his own opinion, and he wasn't attacking me personally, even though I'm an Enterprise fan; he was expressing his opinion of the series, which just happens to be different than mine. But he basically says that Voyager & Enterprise are 'nasty and irrational, moronic & bumbling, prone to the most terrible gaffs you could imagine.' No big.
I was however shocked when kimc then compared him (a person) to the qualities he just named about two tv shows. kimc did it with 'a smile and wink emoticon' but still took something that was aimed at a tv show (which has no feelings to hurt) and then aimed it at a person (who obviously has emtions). Even if kimc was kidding, the comparison was made. The little wink seems akin to saying "no offense but..." right before someone says something horribly offensive. Of course this is an online discussion which lacks the subtle expressions of real time debate so it's possible that nothing offensive was intended - it's just a very slippery slope...that I think should be avoided at all costs. But maybe that's just me being overly cautious as someone accused me of being only last night.
From the context of the sentence in the opening post Sokar doesn't seem to be using the word gay to mean happy. He seems to be using the word gay to mean something to be avoided; something unworthy of attention or love - which implies even without intent that gay people are unworthy of attention of love. Sadly, I have to wonder if the opening remark had been racist (instead of homophobic) if this thread would still be open at all?
In case you haven't noticed, I have been practising it. Just because I disagree with you and believe that you are wrong does not mean that I believe you should shut up, there is a monumentally huge difference. I post on this website in order to have discussions and debates, I don't post here in order to make sure that everyone agrees with me.
Want to see how I react when somebody attacks a show which I love?
John Titor wasn't saying something purely for the sake of being nasty, he was saying it to be humorous, and I did laugh a little when I read it even though I disagreed about Enterprise. I don't find Ricky Gervais all that funny, but I would never suggest that he should be silenced.
Which is exactly why I said their hatred is unhealthy.
And I would say that anybody who loves a TV show, or any piece of fiction, to a point where they cannot accept any criticism of it also has emotional issues not related to the show. Do I want to silence such people from proclaiming their love of the show? No, I would never advocate such a policy.
My thread where I am rewatching Voyager as a hater and pointing out all the things the show got wrong (and right) is currently the most viewed thread in the Voyager forum. I have had people saying that it is the best thread this BBS has seen in years and there are already requests that I do a similar thread for Enterprise and DS9 once I am finished with Voyager 6 months from now.
Clearly there is an appetite for these types of discussions in this forum, there are people who want to hear the opinions of a self-confessed Voyager hater. Saying that people who dislike Voyager should just shut up and keep their opinions to themselves is not the way to go about things.
People, can't we all just get along?
As long as we're not actually insulting one another, why can't we express our honest opinions, whatever they may be, and have earnest, adult discussions about Star Trek or anything else for that matter?
Some of us like certain shows, certain movies, certain characters, and certain episodes. Others dislike certain shows, certain movies, certain characters, and certain episodes. We all like Star Trek, and everyone's entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong one might feel another is.
Can't we just all agree to treat each other with a degree of respect, and understand that most of us aren't here to insult or belittle one another, that our opinions are simply that - our opinions? Clearly those that are will be clearly recognized and called out as such, and dealt with by the mods.
As long as we're not actually insulting one another, why can't we express our honest opinions, whatever they may be, and have earnest, adult discussions about Star Trek or anything else for that matter?
Some of us like certain shows, certain movies, certain characters, and certain episodes. Others dislike certain shows, certain movies, certain characters, and certain episodes. We all like Star Trek, and everyone's entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong one might feel another is.
Can't we just all agree to treat each other with a degree of respect, and understand that most of us aren't here to insult or belittle one another, that our opinions are simply that - our opinions? Clearly those that are will be clearly recognized and called out as such, and dealt with by the mods.
john titor
Captain
LOL, this is funny, the Shat is right.
I'll rephrase; if Voyager was a person it'd be Margaret Thatcher,.
If Ent was a person it'd be George Bush.
I'll rephrase; if Voyager was a person it'd be Margaret Thatcher,.
If Ent was a person it'd be George Bush.
The difference is that your thread is NOT insulting to the show or to those who watch it. Instead it is intellectual, amusing and thought-provoking. And before you get too large a head I need to tell you that your fly is open.
Yes, there is a HUGE appetite for intelligent discussion on what worked and didn't work on Voyager as your thread demonstrates. Even those of us who love the show see a lot that could have been done differently. Unfortunately, forum history has been filled with those who just come in to "troll and run". Thankfully, there are many other posters who make hanging out here worthwhile and yes I'm quite protective of them.
As for john_titor I find it interesting that he is not complaining about my little joke. This tells me he can take what he dishes out which personally I find an admirable quality - especially since my bizarre sense of humor and get the better of me sometimes.
I am seriously freaked out because I checked and my fly actually was open!The difference is that your thread is NOT insulting to the show or to those who watch it. Instead it is intellectual, amusing and thought-provoking. And before you get too large a head I need to tell you that your fly is open.
I've just completed a quick search of my room for hidden cameras and didn't find any, but this event just leaves me even more convinced that my life is a very, very boring version of The Truman Show.
I am seriously freaked out because I checked and my fly actually was open!The difference is that your thread is NOT insulting to the show or to those who watch it. Instead it is intellectual, amusing and thought-provoking. And before you get too large a head I need to tell you that your fly is open.
I've just completed a quick search of my room for hidden cameras and didn't find any, but this event just leaves me even more convinced that my life is a very, very boring version of The Truman Show.
I swear it's just a coincidence! BTW, what is up with what you're wearing?
Personally, we all have our opinions of what shows we like and what shows we dislike. I happen to be a real big fan of Voyager but can now see it's flaws as I re-watch some episodes from the past 2 years or so. I thought the show overall did fairly well because of the cast..it was the one cast of Trek that DID get along together(even though they didn't do too much together in real life!) and their personalities, even though they were different, meshed so well together. I thought the characters themselves were quite fresh in the beginning(and yes even a little stiff at times) but then deepened in later episodes.
It sickens me that this show is being dissed..why can't we all remember it for what it really was? A wonderful science fiction show that had promise..the writers just threw it away in the end! But of course, that's IMHO.
It sickens me that this show is being dissed..why can't we all remember it for what it really was? A wonderful science fiction show that had promise..the writers just threw it away in the end! But of course, that's IMHO.
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