Voyager: The Ending You Would Have Preferred

[kent]

I've been reading about the whole time travel thing in the last episode, and people's issue with the temporal time police or whatever having issue.

They might of. I said it. They might of. But who's to say that everything that future Janeway did WASN'T supposed to happen? What if it was ALL supposed to happen? When it comes to time paradox's, it's completely impossible to tell. It's certainly withing the realm of possibilities that what Janeway did was a natural part of the timelines, past, present, future, and alternate.

And it's ALSO possible that the Temporal time police did indeed fix a few faults here and there, but we just never noticed inbetween Voyager getting home and Nemesis. We really didn't see much in Nemesis beyond the Enterprise-E. Not much hard evidence there.

But I maintain that what if it was all supposed to happen anyway. The temporal time police can see all timelines, past, present, and future, and possibly alternate. It's possible they saw this happening and saw it was supposed to happen that way. Not all time "tampering" could be a mistake, some of it could just be a natural progresssion. It's also possible that since it happened in the past of the temporal time police (29th century if i remember correctly), with no interference from anyone from the 29th century, it wasn't apropriate to correct it. The only time they did was when Paxton when ballistic and tried to kill voyager, and when he got trapped in 20th century earth. Both instances involved a 29th century person influencing the past.

 

[Guy Gardener]

it was all supposed to happen after it happened brushing aside what had happened. ie where janeway came from, who all there would ask "why are we being murdered?" and the new events created by her meddling were just that from her perspective new events.

 

[Tachyon]

I voted for them getting back a little before the finale, although I would have, as stated previously, settled for a non-time travel 'Endgame' that basically shows us that they did get back, and, in a retrospective way, what happened and what they did afterward.

My second choice is for them to still be 'out there, thataway' at the end, Tacyhon.

I think I have warmed up a little to the option of them coming back sooner. It just felt so unfinished when they just glided towards Earth in the final scene and then it was all over. I agree about the non-time travel thing. I have never been a huge fan of time-travel or alternative universe storylines.

 

[Tachyon]

Janeway had no problem murdering Tuvix in an almost identical way, so murdering the other Janeway that way would be 'old hat' to her by that point.

But if Tuvix had lived, would she had not killed Tuvok and Neelix? Shitty situation to choose.

 

[Brit]

Janeway had no problem murdering Tuvix in an almost identical way, so murdering the other Janeway that way would be 'old hat' to her by that point.

But if Tuvix had lived, would she had not killed Tuvok and Neelix? Shitty situation to choose.

The episode “Tuvix” is the one that Janeway nitpickers always like to use as proof of how bad a person she was. “Tuvix” is a moral dilemma, there is no good answer. She chose the needs of her crew over the needs of Tuvix. These same nitpickers would have simply used her disregard of Tuvok and Neelix’s lives if she would have chosen the other way.

For better or worse, and for the good of everyone on Voyager, Tuvix had to go so Tuvok and Neelix could come back. There is no other decision she could have made, and contrary to what some may think, it was her great character and moral base that gave her the strength to do the “right” thing.

Tuvix was the innocent victim of circumstance; he was a sympathetic character, which makes Janeway’s decision all the more poignant. This is the “Kobayashi Maru” in practice, the decision that Captains very often have to make, the one that cannot be resolved without some kind of pain. You should be applauding her courage instead of using her actions against her.

Brit

 

[Praetor]

I agree, Brit. KJ made the most right decision possible. Two for the price of one? Uh, no. I want my two crewmen back, thanks.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But Tuvix reached into his soul(s?) and asked Tuvok and Neelix if they liked being him, and they said "Hell yeah! It's aces." Or at least that's what he told Janeway and she seemed to agree with him at the time.

I wonder what would happen if two crewmen decided they wanted to be blended like Tuvix but the composit thought that he was a freak and wanted to split up again even though it went against the established wishes of the component people?

 

[Praetor]

"Ensign S'tick, you an affront upon the face of God. Here's your hypo. Do what you know you must."

 

[kimc]

Look at it this way: If the Admiral was not supposed to alter history the universe would have found a way to stop her. The universe always does. So clearly her time tampering was approved by somebody "higher up."

That is a logical reasoning.

Logical? It's given me a headache!

Oh, and while Voyager rocks I can't defend "Endshame" either.

 

[kimc]

You cannot even begin to equate the crimes that Admiral Janeway committed with the ones Admiral Kirk committed. Not even the same universe.

Same universe, different century.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Same millennium.

 

[Gorf]

You cannot even begin to equate the crimes that Admiral Janeway committed with the ones Admiral Kirk committed. Not even the same universe.

Same universe, different century.

Not to mention that BillJ likes Kirk, I'm sure, but he doesn't like Janeway.

 

[Praetor]

Am I the only one who wishes the writers would have done a better job addressing the potentially controversial aspects of KJ's decisions at the time of the episodes? JTK had a lot of leeway to make decisions, but KJ's situation was basically unprecedented and required a lot of independent decisions.

 

[kimc]

^ Perhaps they didn't see them as all that controversial?

 

[Guy Gardener]

When Picard met himself from the future in Time Squared, I believe that the younger Picard shot his timeworn counterpart because he was just a terrible influence on events.

I think the blokes from temporal investigations in Deep Space Nine's Trials and Tribble-Lations had a few words to say about Jim.

DULMUR
His ship.

LUCSLY
James T. Kirk.

SISKO
(smiles)
The one and only.

LUCSLY
(shaking his head)
Seventeen separate temporal
violations. The biggest file on
record.

DULMUR
The man was a menace.

James might have "discovered" time travel first, but a year after he did so, Starfleet was sending exploratory probes into Earths history, well, The Enterprise, just to kick the tires and check the oil of what was. I get squeamish thinking that some thing as dangerous as time travel was just a tool used by Starfleet to feed it's hunger for knowledge so casually, although it also meant that a bureaucracy would have been built around the safe implementation and orderly use and the protection of abuse from/of time travel, just like with any other novel invention of something dangerous that can't be kept under lids.

Then there's always Starfleet's Temporal Displacement policy mentioned in DS9 Past Tense, or regulation 157, subsection 111, paragraph 18 mentioned in Trials and Tribble-lations, which both say don't mess with the past. Either Janeway was bound by a huge wrote of order about how to conduct herself in such a situation or expect the laws of the past to receive her meddling, although I do not believe that Janeway could yet arrest people for crimes that they were going to commit like Ducane did to Braxton.

 

[Praetor]

^ Perhaps they didn't see them as all that controversial?

Unfortunately, that seems to be the case, which is a shame of missed drama if you ask me.

 

[BillJ]

You cannot even begin to equate the crimes that Admiral Janeway committed with the ones Admiral Kirk committed. Not even the same universe.

Same universe, different century.

Not to mention that BillJ likes Kirk, I'm sure, but he doesn't like Janeway.

Since I've been watching Star Trek since 1975, as a 5 year old, Jim Kirk has had a bigger impact on me. So yes I like Kirk better.

But let's take a look at the risk involved in the 'operations' carried out by each Admiral at the planning stage of each adventure...

Kirk: Risking the careers of six officers, possibly the lives of five and the fate of the de-commissioned USS Enterprise by stealing the starship and going to a quaratined planet to take the body of a fallen comrade home.

Janeway: Taking top-secret tech and planning on re-writing the history of three-quarters of the galaxy to rescue two crewmembers she couldn't live without.

There is no argument about what these plans entailed in their respective planning stages.

Without a doubt Janeway was far more reckless in her choices than Jim Kirk ever was. I would also say Admiral Janeway may have lost her marbles by this point.

 

[Tachyon]

Maybe she lost her marbles, but after the timeline had been altered, Janeway in a current "timeline" most likely did not end up like her.

Yeah - not a huge fan of Endshame's Admiral Janeway either. Damn Bermaga! I blame you!

 

[BillJ]

Maybe she lost her marbles, but after the timeline had been altered, Janeway in a current "timeline" most likely did not end up like her.

Yeah - not a huge fan of Endshame's Admiral Janeway either. Damn Bermaga! I blame you!

Problem with 'Endgame' was that they weren't that far away from telling a good story. Change the future 26 years later to something dark and dystopic then you give Janeway a logical reason to go back and change things. Maybe Voyager's last sixteen years in the Delta Quadrant were a cake walk but life in the Federation was getting worse. She feels bad for living the good life while things at home fell apart. Make sure we show her giving up something special in timeline A, like a child. Then have her go back and reset the timeline.

So close... yet so far away.

 

[Praetor]

Wouldn't it have been just a little more interesting if part of the plot had actually centered on the fact that Admiral Janeway of the future was nuts?

I'd have still preferred 'Endgame' have not involved time travel at all, and the plot involve flashbacks to them getting home, coupled with them dealing with something in the future related to how they got home.