Norrin Radd
Vice Admiral
Do you think they should have played with it a bit more and maybe developed the ULTIMATE love/hate Star Trek romance...?
Kira/Dukat?
- Thread starter Norrin Radd
- Start date
Yeah, I really liked the process of Kira slowly and reluctantly developing respect for him while he couldn't help but feel more affection for her the more they spent time together. It was a really neat situation seeing two people who are naturally sworn enemies being unable to deny that there's some chemistry between them. I have to admit, though, it was a good twist by the writers. They really got me thinking Dukat was going to reform and then went and turned him right back to a straight-up villain, killing those friendly possibilities with Kira.
I don't know about that. Like Dukat said, it never really felt right to have those two sincerely on the same side with each other.
I think it would've been very disturbing, especially with what we know Dukat likes in women: what he ultimately wants is not simply to take them by force (though I suspect he's done that before) but to make them share in his delusion. He wants them to believe they want it.
So a Kira falling in love with Dukat (in this universe) would be a Kira who has totally swallowed Dukat's delusions, been subtly "assimilated" by him. And that's something I would find quite disturbing.
Though I'll say, if you want to see the romance actually WORK, check out the Myriad Universes "Seeds of Dissent." I was shocked at how well it actually worked--it really made me feel the lost potential in Dukat, that if the man had just made better choices...
I think it would've been very disturbing, especially with what we know Dukat likes in women: what he ultimately wants is not simply to take them by force (though I suspect he's done that before) but to make them share in his delusion. He wants them to believe they want it.
So a Kira falling in love with Dukat (in this universe) would be a Kira who has totally swallowed Dukat's delusions, been subtly "assimilated" by him. And that's something I would find quite disturbing.
Though I'll say, if you want to see the romance actually WORK, check out the Myriad Universes "Seeds of Dissent." I was shocked at how well it actually worked--it really made me feel the lost potential in Dukat, that if the man had just made better choices...
"Very disturbing" is a good way to put it. If Dukat had just been a regular bad guy, the redemptive love angle might have been great to see.
But he wasn't a regular bad guy. He had been not only Kira's enemy, but an enemy of all of Bajor - a despoiler of its land, user and abuser of its people and a genuinely evil man who did horrific things, mostly (but not entirely!) in name of duty. That he had some good qualities, and some fascinating qualities, doesn't change that. A D/K relationship would be like the commandant of Dachau and a Dachau prisoner (whose family and friends had all died in the ovens) falling in love. Just. not. RIGHT.
Forgiving your enemies is one thing; falling for them is another. Turning your cheek to your enemy is one thing; turning it to the killer and torturer of your people is another.
Now...in a mirror universe...that would be a different thing altogether. That I'd like to see.
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The ONLY way it could've realistically happened--and even then, remember that such events are incredibly rare in our history, and usually attributed to a very, very powerful spiritual revelation would be for Dukat to have a "Road to Damascus"-type incident. He would have to be absolutely, totally broken under the weight of his sins and rebuilt almost completely from scratch. We as viewers would have to see evidence of a massive upheaval--there would be a period, if it were genuine, of intense, paralyzing grief.
It HAS happened on very rare occasions: St. Paul, for one, Asoka for another.
You'll notice, if you happen to read the Book of Acts, that there's a LOT of distrust for Paul when he first shows up to the early Christians and announces that he no longer wants them dead, but wants to help. I have a feeling that it was every bit as startling to those people as it would be if Dukat showed up at a temple and offered his life to the Prophets.
It would have to be extreme. And I have a feeling a lot of people here would be bitching about it every bit as much as they bitch about the Pah-Wraith plot. But that is the ONLY way it could ever work: Dukat would have to completely die to himself and be reborn.
It HAS happened on very rare occasions: St. Paul, for one, Asoka for another.
You'll notice, if you happen to read the Book of Acts, that there's a LOT of distrust for Paul when he first shows up to the early Christians and announces that he no longer wants them dead, but wants to help. I have a feeling that it was every bit as startling to those people as it would be if Dukat showed up at a temple and offered his life to the Prophets.
It would have to be extreme. And I have a feeling a lot of people here would be bitching about it every bit as much as they bitch about the Pah-Wraith plot. But that is the ONLY way it could ever work: Dukat would have to completely die to himself and be reborn.
^ Ooh, good parallels. Kind of...Oskar Schindler-like (of Schindler's List), except even more so. Total and complete acknowledgement of wrongs, abasement of self, surrender of self, forgive-me-Father-for-I-have-sinned-ness (insert non-denominational/non-religious reference, for those who prefer that), followed by redemption. Yes, I agree, that could work, and it would have been r-e-e-e-e-a-a-a-a-l-l-l-l-l-y fascinating to watch, if done well.
If done badly, it would have been awful, of course.
But people do, very rarely, make these amazing transformations. I'd like to see
Dukat redeemed and at peace. He was never a casual villain. Beneath all that swagger was a man who did not rest easy.
If done badly, it would have been awful, of course.
But people do, very rarely, make these amazing transformations. I'd like to see
Dukat redeemed and at peace. He was never a casual villain. Beneath all that swagger was a man who did not rest easy.
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Given the actor in question, who seems to have the ability to convert manure into onscreen diamonds, I think it could work even if the writers didn't handle it that well.
But yeah...I did have the Schindler example in mind--though I think Schindler went more from apathetic/pragmatic to compassionate, rather than all the way from evil to compassionate. (Mind you, it's been MANY years since I saw the movie, so my memories could be off base.)
And that he could not face himself was what I think ultimately led to his selling his soul, and his final demise.
^ Oh, I agree - Dukat would have had a much longer journey than Schindler. Schindler was originally...I think you're right that "pragmatic" is the right word, rather than actively evil. But in its own way, that's a difficult journey, too. I mean, if you can tell yourself, as Schindler did, "I didn't create these conditions; I'm just trying to get by as best as I can. And I'm not a bad man - look, that guy is much worse"...you could go a long time, and maybe forever, without confronting the evil you had done.
Dukat didn't have that luxury. All he had was the excuse of "I was following orders; I was doing my duty." That might be enough for some, but I don't think it was enough for him.
Dukat didn't have that luxury. All he had was the excuse of "I was following orders; I was doing my duty." That might be enough for some, but I don't think it was enough for him.
If Kira really was a Cardassian and the daughter of a legate and the Obsidian Order had her DNA altered and real memories buried (sp?) and given Kira Nerys. Yes I know it was a trap set by Obsidian Order to expose a legate as a tratior.
But I seem to recall reading/hearing that this episode was originally written that it was true that she was Cardassian and the daughter of a legate who wanted to help Cardassia any she could and volunteered for deep cover work.
The only way a Kira/Dukat relationship could have worked is if Dukat found this out and decided to restore her birth (first) identity while keeping her Kira Nerys identity.
But I seem to recall reading/hearing that this episode was originally written that it was true that she was Cardassian and the daughter of a legate who wanted to help Cardassia any she could and volunteered for deep cover work.
The only way a Kira/Dukat relationship could have worked is if Dukat found this out and decided to restore her birth (first) identity while keeping her Kira Nerys identity.
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You're close, but not quite. The episode was originally supposed to have left it ambiguous as to whether Kira had been born Iliana Ghemor or not, and she would've chosen to continue living as Kira on the grounds that she is who she chose to be.
Hmm...I still can't imagine it. She has too much of a moral compass--and so too did Iliana's father. Even some Cardassians can't stand Dukat (Tekeny Ghemor later turns out to be an example), and I have a feeling a Cardassian Kira would be no different in that.
If anyone's ever read Fearful Symmetry and seen what dukat gets up to then the answer would have to be an empathic NO! There is no way in the Fire Caves that Kira would have anything to do with Dukat in the canon universe.
Do you recall the epsoide name I'm drawing a blank
I wish the producers had gone with what was originally written or gone the route that she is/was Iliana Ghemor
Well at least I think Dukat would have viewed her Differently as a lost Cardassian and not an infierior Bajoran, it might have given him a Delusion the ONY he could save her from what she had become and at some level he was aware of it and that is why he was able to develop feelings for her.
Also it was have added to her friendship/bond with Tekeny Ghemor.
It would have forced Iliana/Nerys to re-think how she views Cardassians and Bajorans and her own identiy. As well it would have added to her friendship with Tora Ziyal
I dunno, she did wind up being with a collaborator, fair and just and that collaborator might have been. 
No, a Kira/Dukat relationship would have been at least as ridiculous as... well, what actually happened.
No, a Kira/Dukat relationship would have been at least as ridiculous as... well, what actually happened.
When he was on the road to Damascus, Saul (as he was known at the time) had what I would call one of the most profound life-changing experiences one could ever have. Once the persecuter, the now-rechristened Paul was now preaching the very Christ he once spoke out against. Naturally, there would be distrust after all his years of persecution against the church.
Back to Kira/Dukat, for storytelling sake, it was better leaving their animosity as it was. A scene which always sticks out for me would be the one in the season six story arc (episode name escapes me at the moment) where Kira gets a dress from Dukat (Dukat is warming up to her as a result of Kira's growing friendship with Ziyal). Kira excitedly tries it out before throwing it on the floor in disgust, realizing who it's from.
I think it was pretty clear that Dukat had a "thing" for Bajoran women, one that he may have been conflicted about. It didn't mean he liked them or viewed them as equals; just that he was compelled to try and "conquer" them, by any means necessary.
NO! 
I just watched the DVD for season six in which Nana Visitor apparently got into an argument with Ira Behr about this idea, and I couldn't be more glad that she won. I'm the first one to admit that the two actors had chemistry, but Kira's sacreficed too much in part because of what that man's done to her home. That's kind of hard to overlook.
I do wish that Dukat didn't go completely apeshit. It would have been more interesting if he'd just stayed the same delusional twat that never does quite graps why Bajor isn't on it's knees thanking him.
I just watched the DVD for season six in which Nana Visitor apparently got into an argument with Ira Behr about this idea, and I couldn't be more glad that she won. I'm the first one to admit that the two actors had chemistry, but Kira's sacreficed too much in part because of what that man's done to her home. That's kind of hard to overlook.
I do wish that Dukat didn't go completely apeshit. It would have been more interesting if he'd just stayed the same delusional twat that never does quite graps why Bajor isn't on it's knees thanking him.
No. Never, to the end of the universe, was Kira EVER gonna put out for the like of Dukat. On the most charming, dynamic, compelling personality day of his life, Dukat was merely a dreamer.
Norrin Radd
Vice Admiral
You poor sods...love conquers all, don'tcha know?
