Kira/Dukat?

[Nerys Ghemor]

Do you recall the epsoide name I'm drawing a blank

Second Skin.

Well at least I think Dukat would have viewed her Differently as a lost Cardassian and not an infierior Bajoran, it might have given him a Delusion the ONY he could save her from what she had become and at some level he was aware of it and that is why he was able to develop feelings for her.

It would be a DELUSION, all right.

Also it was have added to her friendship/bond with Tekeny Ghemor.
It would have forced Iliana/Nerys to re-think how she views Cardassians and Bajorans and her own identiy. As well it would have added to her friendship with Tora Ziyal

I think Kira did have to do some of that rethinking as it was, though you do have a point. I mean, the way it was written, this Cardassian man came to love her as a father would, and against everything she'd ever learned or believed, she found in him the sort of person whose affection she really did want.

But...I think the ambiguous route would've been very interesting for the consequences it could've had.

 

[MorganScorpion]

You poor sods...love conquers all, don'tcha know?

Love does, when it's mutual.

Lust, especially when allied to greed and selfishness, does not.

If Dukat truly loved Kira, he would be trying to make amends for the wrong that he had done to her and her people. Not attempting to force his will upon her.

 

[Cheile]

So a Kira falling in love with Dukat (in this universe) would be a Kira who has totally swallowed Dukat's delusions, been subtly "assimilated" by him. And that's something I would find quite disturbing.

Though I'll say, if you want to see the romance actually WORK, check out the Myriad Universes "Seeds of Dissent." I was shocked at how well it actually worked--it really made me feel the lost potential in Dukat, that if the man had just made better choices...

word to the first part--and i did actually like James Swallow's interpretation of a Kira/Dukat romance in the Khan-ruled universe.

it's making me wanting to beg someone who's read the book to write a post-Seeds of Dissent fic in which we see Kira deal with the loss of Dukat. this is how my brain works oy!!

i remember watching the little snippet with Nana where she talks about "yelling across the table" at Ira Behr, even though she's laughing about it...and she is SO SO right. the very concept is just EW EW EW EW, even BEFORE we found out that Dukat had seduced Meru. then it's even more sickening. :twitch:

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

So a Kira falling in love with Dukat (in this universe) would be a Kira who has totally swallowed Dukat's delusions, been subtly "assimilated" by him. And that's something I would find quite disturbing.

Though I'll say, if you want to see the romance actually WORK, check out the Myriad Universes "Seeds of Dissent." I was shocked at how well it actually worked--it really made me feel the lost potential in Dukat, that if the man had just made better choices...

word to the first part--and i did actually like James Swallow's interpretation of a Kira/Dukat romance in the Khan-ruled universe.

it's making me wanting to beg someone who's read the book to write a post-Seeds of Dissent fic in which we see Kira deal with the loss of Dukat. this is how my brain works oy!!

Why not write it yourself? I'd love to see.

 

[BolianAuthor]

I'd loved to have seen more of Kira and Dukat. My FAVORITE Kira/Dukat scene was the one where Kira told Dukat that every time he smiles, she wants to leave the room, and in reply, he merely smiles more at her, and chuckles in his own evil way, lol.

 

[Anika Hanson]

This is one relationship I would have loved to have seen. It was something that you would never have expected at the begining of the show but would have liked to have seen it slowly develop over time.

 

[JustKate]

^ You wanted Kira to fall in love or have an affair with the monster who despoiled her planet? Used its resources and people as he wished? Really?

I love the K/D scenes, too, but only because it is so much fun to watch her put him in his place. He is definitely a man who needs to be put in his place, too. And I enjoyed the tension - that kind of tension isn't something you see a lot of in Trek, at least not long term. It is great, but...

Look, there are things I like about Dukat. But let us not forget who he is and what he has done, and how much he enjoyed a lot of it. Not all...but a lot. He is a compelling character partly because he is so charismatic but also because he is so...chilling. The archtype of a man who did horrific things in the name of The State.

The only way this could happen without turning Kira into a deluded fool and a quasi-collaborator is as Nerys Ghemor described several posts ago: For Dukat to cease to be the man who raped Bajor. To become a completely different and more worthwhile person. To be as horrified by his past actions as a Bajorian would be. To take steps to atone for that past.

And lusting after Kira (yet another in a series of Bajorian women that he has lusted after) would not make him a different man, however interesting it makes the drama.

 

[Cheile]

it's making me wanting to beg someone who's read the book to write a post-Seeds of Dissent fic in which we see Kira deal with the loss of Dukat. this is how my brain works oy!!

Why not write it yourself? I'd love to see.

oh good Lord no, don't give my muse anymore ideas!! i have enough plot kittens, bunnies, sprites and other assorted creatures hogging space in my brain for that!! LOL.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I never thought Kira should fall in love with Dukat or anything like that, but I did imagine it would be more interesting to continue the plot of them being uneasy allies or people with a love/hate relationship and a reluctant mutual respect for each other. Turning him back into a standard villain after all the nice writing that had been done to build up their more complex relationship made it seem a little pointless.

 

[JustKate]

^ Oh, I definitely agree with your last statement. Here they had created this really multilayered character, and then they turn him into Evil Incarnate. What a waste.

 

[Praetor]

Ugh, no! Nana Visitor was right. This would be like Anne Frank falling in love with Adolf Hitler.

Exactly.

^ Oh, I definitely agree with your last statement. Here they had created this really multilayered character, and then they turn him into Evil Incarnate. What a waste.

Agreed in that they made it too simple too quickly. As was suggested in the thread regarding the quality of Season 7, you could argue that the character arc of multi-layer Dukat was the battle for his soul, and that evil won out, quite literally. That said, it happened almost too fast and too suddenly, beginning, I would say with Super-Crazy Dukat in 'Tears of the Prophets.'

 

[Myasishchev]

^Or Waltz. I mean, sure, he was crazy in Sacrifice of Angels, but you've gotta give the dude a break on that one.

 

[Praetor]

I was going to say 'Waltz' originally myself, but I think both there and 'Sacrifice of Angels' he was pitiably insane and possibly salvageable, whereas by 'Tears of the Prophets' he was Charles Manson crazy.

"What am I doing, Damar? Oh, just unleashing demons to destroy the Bajoran gods in the Celestial Temple to win the war. Duh!"

 

[indranee]

ITA with the OP. they had chemistry, backstory, AND good actors to play both characters. too bad their (both the writers and Visitor) hatred of a historical event soured them on exploring this complicated relationship further.

that said, I still think they did an okay job of showing some of the darker, deeper complexities of the Kira/Dukat dynamic. I just wish they'd done more. I didn't want soppy romance (blechh). what I wanted was exploration of the K/Du dynamic. oh well. yet another thing DS9 failed at (I'm a Niner, btw, so no one jump on me now!).

 

[NumberSix]

I just watched the DVD for season six in which Nana Visitor apparently got into an argument with Ira Behr about this idea...

i remember watching the little snippet with Nana where she talks about "yelling across the table" at Ira Behr...

Does anyone know which dvd of season 6 this interview bit is on?

 

[Thor Damar]

I was going to say 'Waltz' originally myself, but I think both there and 'Sacrifice of Angels' he was pitiably insane and possibly salvageable, whereas by 'Tears of the Prophets' he was Charles Manson crazy.

"What am I doing, Damar? Oh, just unleashing demons to destroy the Bajoran gods in the Celestial Temple to win the war. Duh!"

"How does THAT help us?"

My personal opinion is that Skrain Dukat had been insane for years, at least in terms of his megalomania and his constant desire for the love of his victims. For him people are tools to be used and discarded with the exception of Kira Neryrs whom Dukat wanted to win over, Tora Ziyal his beloved daughter (used to gain kira's affection) and Ben Sisko, Dukat's imagined rival.
Dukat needed to prove his superiority to the Galaxy and I think it's that need that slowly drove him insane.

But then again maybe many other Cardassians were driven to a certain level of insanity by the stresses of their system and the high demands made upon them?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I just watched the DVD for season six in which Nana Visitor apparently got into an argument with Ira Behr about this idea...

i remember watching the little snippet with Nana where she talks about "yelling across the table" at Ira Behr...

Does anyone know which dvd of season 6 this interview bit is on?

FYI, I did not say what was quoted above.

 

[NumberSix]

Oops, must have mixed up the quotes.

 

[Michael]

Does anyone know which dvd of season 6 this interview bit is on?

Usually the special features are on the last disc. At least they are on the European versions. Are they doing it differently in the US?

 

[Praetor]

I was going to say 'Waltz' originally myself, but I think both there and 'Sacrifice of Angels' he was pitiably insane and possibly salvageable, whereas by 'Tears of the Prophets' he was Charles Manson crazy.

"What am I doing, Damar? Oh, just unleashing demons to destroy the Bajoran gods in the Celestial Temple to win the war. Duh!"

"How does THAT help us?"

Exactly.

My personal opinion is that Skrain Dukat had been insane for years, at least in terms of his megalomania and his constant desire for the love of his victims. For him people are tools to be used and discarded with the exception of Kira Neryrs whom Dukat wanted to win over, Tora Ziyal his beloved daughter (used to gain kira's affection) and Ben Sisko, Dukat's imagined rival.
Dukat needed to prove his superiority to the Galaxy and I think it's that need that slowly drove him insane.

I think you're right. He was, shall we say, 'functionally psychotic' during his Prefect time in the occupation. Having to withdraw and suffer humiliation after humiliation eventually put him on the downslide to make him truly batshit crazy.

In some way, I think Dukat needed to win over Kira, almost as if it were a battle for his sanity and even his soul, which, he clearly ultimately lost.

But then again maybe many other Cardassians were driven to a certain level of insanity by the stresses of their system and the high demands made upon them?

An interesting proposition. The most likely other candidate I can think of - Mister Garak - seemed relatively sane, 'Empok Nor' excluded. Sociopathic? Maybe a bit. But otherwise the worst he had was a bit of claustrophobia, and as that evidences, even he had a conscience, as it 'punished himself' for betraying his duty to his people.

Still, there is reason to think that modern Cardassian civilization may have made almost all of its soldiers and citizens a bundle of conflicting neuroses and psychoses.