Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Semah]

SO QUIT TREATING THIS LIKE POCKET BOOK KILLED A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY!

Just as soon as you quit treating us like our opinion doesn't count. As soon as you acknowledge the fact that fans are upset, they have a right to be upset and they have the right to be vocal about it.

So no we are not going away.

Brit

Until who does these things? Because, (and I love me some repeating of myself. Seems to be the thing to do in this thread) no one is saying that your opinion doesn't count, nor is anyone saying that you are upset, (How in the blue hell could anyone say that?) and you can be as vocal as writing in a visual medium allows. Hell, go ahead and scream at your computer while you type.

But if you're going to keep making outlandish sexism claims, and insulting writers and posters, people are going to keep calling you on it.

 

[Brit]

I don't consider anything that I have said about the direction of the Trek books as insulting, I have said I don't like it. I have said I will not buy books until it's fixed and that is my right and I will continue to say just that. I have not attacked a writer or an editor on a personal level. While you and others have went out of your way to try to attack me.

Brit

 

[Semah]

I don't consider anything that I have said about the direction of the Trek books as insulting, I have said I don't like it. I have said I will not buy books until it's fixed and that is my right and I will continue to say just that. I have not attacked a writer or an editor on a personal level. While you and others have went out of your way to try to attack me.

Brit

Like my Algebra professor used to say: show your work. Please link to a post where I've gone out of my way to attack you. While you're at it, since you're constantly saying that we say your opinions don't matter and that you don't have the right to be upset, why don't you go ahead and link to a few of those. Shouldn't take you very long since it's obviously so prevalent.

 

[Tachyon]

This is in no way meant as disrespect for you, Tachyon, or any other Janeway fan, but really - don't you think this has gone overboard? I mean, what are you trying to accomplish? Do you want everyone to admit that Janeway needs to come back? Fine - I admit it .

Now can we move on??

I agree with you, RonG. To be brutally honest, this thread has become more or less a mess. Is this getting overboard? I think it is in some extent. So we do agree on that one. But I would not still make any orders for others to stop debating the issue, if they still want to have a discussion about this.

I do not need you or anyone else to say that Janeway needs to be back. It is more than clear to everyone involved that there are different opinions about the matter. Some want her alive, some couldn't care less. Okay. Cool. But I have observed some creative, yet somewhat disrespectful, remarks said about certain Voyager fans and labelling them in a certain way. If you don't want Janeway to be alive, fine, but there are those who do and for whom Voyager is the best Trek series there ever has been.

Therefore, I just pointed out that anyone can move on from this issue by forgetting this thread. Many of the previous posters have already done so, because they have had enough of this. So it is really possible to move on by not posting on this thread, if the issue is getting old for you.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I would like to take the time to point out that may ealier rant post was directed at Lynx and slighty only ay one moment to Brit. Every other fan of Janeway who didn't like her death I have no problem with.

 

[Semah]

I would like to take the time to point out that may ealier rant post was directed at Lynx and slighty only ay one moment to Brit. Every other fan of Janeway who didn't like her death I have no problem with.

+1

 

[LightningStorm]

What do you think about Section 31, for instance?

I'm rather ambivalent about it.

<snip>

I would love to debate any of this.

Brit

He was referring to this thread: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=81991
Where you can discuss all of it.

Lynx one quick little question.

HOW THE FRAK IS JANEWAY'S DEATH A HUGH FRAKKING MORAL ISSUE THAT YOU HAVE TO TAKE A STAND AGAINST! IT ISN'T EVEN A MORAL ISSUE IT'S A CREATIVE CHOICE BY THE GUYS IN CHARGE OF THE NOVEL LINE!

Now having got that out of my system. Lynx racism is something that is wrong that you take a stand against. Sexism is something you take a stand against (AND NO BRIT JANEWAY'S DEATH ISN'T SEXISM JUST BECAUSE ONLY THE STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER IN A COMMAND POSITION THAT YOU PERSONALLY PERFER GETS KILLED!) Craping on moral issues a nation was founded on with the excuse that we're at war is something you take a stand against.

SO QUIT TREATING THIS LIKE POCKET BOOK KILLED A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY!

Please stop e-yelling.

I will when you can express that opinion WITHOUT insulting the writers and editors. You what Tay, Tachyon, and Gorf are a few others are doing.

I do believe you are getting your Janeway fans mixed up. After approx 2000 posts on the issue, I can understand it. But I recall specifically Tay got recognized specifically for her (his?) level-headedness and lack of personal attacks.

Besides, there's no reason to call people out like that anyway especially without providing references to exactly where said individuals have actually done so.

 

[Defcon]

I will when you can express that opinion WITHOUT insulting the writers and editors. You what Tay, Tachyon, and Gorf are a few others are doing.

I do believe you are getting your Janeway fans mixed up. After approx 2000 posts on the issue, I can understand it. But I recall specifically Tay got recognized specifically for her (his?) level-headedness and lack of personal attacks.

FWIW I think Hartzilla2007 actually agrees with you and there is just a typo in his sentence. Looking at the context I believe he meant to say : "Do what Tay, Tachyon, Gorf, and a few others are doing."

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I will when you can express that opinion WITHOUT insulting the writers and editors. You what Tay, Tachyon, and Gorf are a few others are doing.

I do believe you are getting your Janeway fans mixed up. After approx 2000 posts on the issue, I can understand it. But I recall specifically Tay got recognized specifically for her (his?) level-headedness and lack of personal attacks.

FWIW I think Hartzilla2007 actually agrees with you and there is just a typo in his sentence. Looking at the context I believe he meant to say : "Do what Tay, Tachyon, Gorf, and a few others are doing."

Yeah that was actually what I meant to say sorry for the typo. Thanks Defcon for pointing that out.

And

I'm sorry Tay, Tachyon, and Gorf if you thought I was grouping you with the rude posters.

 

[Lynx]

Here I agree. It is possible to change things if you speak out about what is wrong. I've always thought that it's every persons duty to put down the foot and say "No!" when something is wrong or when the development goes in the wrong direction. Remember that those who makes history are those who have the guts to stand up for what they think is right.

Lynx one quick little question.

HOW THE FRAK IS JANEWAY'S DEATH A HUGH FRAKKING MORAL ISSUE THAT YOU HAVE TO TAKE A STAND AGAINST! IT ISN'T EVEN A MORAL ISSUE IT'S A CREATIVE CHOICE BY THE GUYS IN CHARGE OF THE NOVEL LINE!

Now having got that out of my system. Lynx racism is something that is wrong that you take a stand against. Sexism is something you take a stand against (AND NO BRIT JANEWAY'S DEATH ISN'T SEXISM JUST BECAUSE ONLY THE STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER IN A COMMAND POSITION THAT YOU PERSONALLY PERFER GETS KILLED!) Craping on moral issues a nation was founded on with the excuse that we're at war is something you take a stand against.

SO QUIT TREATING THIS LIKE POCKET BOOK KILLED A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY!

Ooooooops! That looked a bit hysterical!

I just have to inform you that I always stand up for what I think is right, no matter if it is political, about certain rights, for a sports team or for a favorite character.

No, none of my family have been killed recently but my ineterst for Star Trek has suffered another severe blow thanks to this decision by Pocket Books.

 

[Therin of Andor]

It doesn't matter what has been said or not, what matters it that I have a voice and I will use it and I will used it as I see fit.

Until I hold my breath and turn blue...

 

[Lynx]

What I'm referring to is that another poster is mentioning new posters suddenly popping up on this forum, apparently referring to newcomers who oppose the decision to kill off Janeway and you write that I was informing lots of Janeway fans of these threads.

You did! And by simply Googling the name "Lynx" and "Janeway" I found several places you frequent, as well as your own Kes website. You told us right here that you were telling people.

One may get the impression that I'm rallying Janeway fans from all over the net to start posting in this debate while the truth is that I haven't mentioned the TrekBBS on the two forums I've mentioned this debate.

One may get many impressions about Star Trek fans via this bizarre thread. With Google you never need to mention where or when.

Ah, I see, I should not have mentioned your screen name - and then it couldn't ever be taken as a personal attack. Your own reasoning, from previous posts.

Lynx, you told us you were talking to other Janeway fans, in numerous posts. Don't underestimate their intelligence; anyone was able to use a Google search to find the mysterious unnamed bbs, where ST literature and specifically Janeway's demise are being debated, was able to do so.

I avoided mentioning the TrekBBS in those posts on other forums because I didn't want to be accused of bringing in angry Janeway fans to support me.

We eventually challenged you, AuntKate and kimc to tell them to come. We were told they didn't want to come here because we always shut down new posters with different opinions. (As if the regulars ever agree on anything?)

As for noticing that Janeway was killed off, many Janeway fans did notice but they could never imagine that the character was killed off permanently.

Tell me when Margaret Clark, Kirsten Beyer or any Pocket employee said that the death was irretrievably permanent. I believe Margaret said that Janeway was "dead for now", and would not be alive at the end of "Full Circle". However, nothing has even been written beyond that point yet, IIRC, although Kirsten is scheduled to do a sequel, and is presumably working on it now/soon.

Oh, so you're assuming that I did all that on purpose anyway, that I calculated that the Janeway fans I might have alarmed should immediately start using Google to find out where I was posting and when they did so, immediately sign up here to create havoc?

Oh dear!

And people accuse me for coming up with conspiracy theories!

As for Janeway being permanently dead or not, well correct me if I'm wrong but that's the impression I get. Otherwise one could have expected a little hint somewhere that she will return in one way or another.

 

[Gorf]

I'm sorry Tay, Tachyon, and Gorf if you thought I was grouping you with the rude posters.

Apology accepted and no worries. I got the typo.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know I want to ask something Now I'm just curious about this but

How would you feel if had Janeway alive but in a similar condition to Pike's in The Menagerie aka Janeway going through something like this

Pike Before Accident

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ed/Christopher_pike.jpg

Pike After Accident

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/STMenagerie.jpg

only Janeway still able to talk through a computer or so.

 

[Semah]

You know I want to ask something Now I'm just curious about this but

How would you feel if had Janeway alive but in a similar condition to Pike's in The Menagerie aka Janeway going through something like this

Pike Before Accident

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ed/Christopher_pike.jpg

Pike After Accident

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/STMenagerie.jpg

only Janeway still able to talk through a computer or so.

I'm not sure the world is ready for the slashfic ideas you have produced with that post.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Oh, so you're assuming that I did all that on purpose anyway, that I calculated that the Janeway fans I might have alarmed should immediately start using Google to find out where I was posting and when they did so, immediately sign up here to create havoc?

Ah, no?

You told us that you informed some Janeway fans of the thread - and they were clever enough to work out where the juicy debate was going on. If it was a conspiracy you wouldn't have told us what you did. And no one cares; this is an open forum and all viewpoints are permitted. As you know, none of the regulars agree with each other most of the time!

As for Janeway being permanently dead or not, well correct me if I'm wrong but that's the impression I get. Otherwise one could have expected a little hint somewhere that she will return in one way or another.

You've been told several times: Paula Block, of CBS Consumer Products, ensured there's an out for Janeway. We saw her drinking coffee and walking off to the Q Continuum, hand in hand with Q's wife. After she died! That is "a little hint".

This is science fiction, where no death is permanent. Did you hear that Batman died in the comics last month? He'll be back. Superman died once, too. Four of him came back, they were revealed as imposters after a year or so, and then the real one came back.

What is the point of Margaret announcing "Janeway is dead, but she's coming back in one/two/five/ten books' time"? Authors and editors don't usually announce the endings of books years before they are written.

 

[Lynx]

You know I want to ask something Now I'm just curious about this but

How would you feel if had Janeway alive but in a similar condition to Pike's in The Menagerie aka Janeway going through something like this

Pike Before Accident

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ed/Christopher_pike.jpg

Pike After Accident

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/STMenagerie.jpg

only Janeway still able to talk through a computer or so.

Janeway like that?

Nah, I find that scenario unacceptable. That's character destruction, almost similar to when they came up with that character in "Fury" who was supposed to be Kes, that crazy maniac who later on became a pathetic wreck.

Why can't we have our favorites they way they were supposed to be?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Why can't we have our favorites they way they were supposed to be?

So, regular characters can't ever die in the books.

Can they lose a limb?

Can they get married? (Only if to a certain other regular of whom "the fans" approve.)

Can they have arguments with close friends that result in dissolved relationships?

Can they change careers? (Definitely no promotions to admiral.)

Can they do any growing and changing at all?

 

[Sci]

A word of advice to those of us who are trying to reason with unreasonable people:

Let it go. Some people are just hysterical reactionaries. There's no reason to continue feeding the trolls and posting in this thread. They have a specific list of demands, and to them, no story has any validity if it doesn't meet their criteria. Let them ramble all they want in this thread, but there's no reason to keep feeding their desire to fight someone over it.

To those of you who opposed the Janeway death without getting personally insulting or behaving like hysterical reactionaries who think that no story has validity unless it fits into an arbitrary box:

Thank you. You guys were class acts, and I mean that. Some people can't disagree without getting personal and treating it like it's a moral issue, but you guys can, and I'd much rather have debated you guys than certain individuals engaging in hysterics, lies, and moral judgments of others on the basis of Janeway's death.

 

[Gorf]

Can they do any growing and changing at all?

I don't remember any of us having said that we don't want our favourite characters to develop and change. In fact I destinctly remember that one of our issues with Pocket Books' decisions over the year is that they DIDN'T develop the Voyager universe and it's characters - or at least that's how I feel personally.

Janeway wasn't allowed to be a woman and grow as such with everything that might involve.

While moving Voyager characters to other series might be seen as making them grow to some, I only see it as robbing Voyager of it's characters.

Oh and we must be able to agree that there's not much growing for Janeway by being killed - and in a TNG book no less. When you're dead you're dead.

Edit...I'm an idiot. I just wrote that I didn't remember any of us saying that we didn't want our favourite character to die. *shakes head at self*