Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Thrawn]

The author has stated several times publicly that her book was written under the assumption that Janeway was completely dead, and she wasn't even aware of the Q thing until well into the writing process. As such, Janeway absolutely will not be coming back to life in Full Circle; unless I've seriously missed something important, we know this for sure.

 

[Strider]

Here I agree. It is possible to change things if you speak out about what is wrong. I've always thought that it's every persons duty to put down the foot and say "No!" when something is wrong or when the development goes in the wrong direction. Remember that those who makes history are those who have the guts to stand up for what they think is right.

You have completely lost your perspective.

 

[RonG]

Thrawn, I was actually making a point on principle... I stated several times my feeling over the over-zealousness of the Militant Janeway Fans (tm)..

Lynx - please, this is getting pathetic...

C'mon people - don't you get tired of arguing variations of the same thing over several threads? Is there really anything to add?

 

[Therin of Andor]

What I'm referring to is that another poster is mentioning new posters suddenly popping up on this forum, apparently referring to newcomers who oppose the decision to kill off Janeway and you write that I was informing lots of Janeway fans of these threads.

You did! And by simply Googling the name "Lynx" and "Janeway" I found several places you frequent, as well as your own Kes website. You told us right here that you were telling people.

One may get the impression that I'm rallying Janeway fans from all over the net to start posting in this debate while the truth is that I haven't mentioned the TrekBBS on the two forums I've mentioned this debate.

One may get many impressions about Star Trek fans via this bizarre thread. With Google you never need to mention where or when.

I just want to state this to avoid speculation of rallying fans in this matter.

Ah, I see, I should not have mentioned your screen name - and then it couldn't ever be taken as a personal attack. Your own reasoning, from previous posts.

Lynx, you told us you were talking to other Janeway fans, in numerous posts. Don't underestimate their intelligence; anyone was able to use a Google search to find the mysterious unnamed bbs, where ST literature and specifically Janeway's demise are being debated, was able to do so.

I avoided mentioning the TrekBBS in those posts on other forums because I didn't want to be accused of bringing in angry Janeway fans to support me.

We eventually challenged you, AuntKate and kimc to tell them to come. We were told they didn't want to come here because we always shut down new posters with different opinions. (As if the regulars ever agree on anything?)

As for noticing that Janeway was killed off, many Janeway fans did notice but they could never imagine that the character was killed off permanently.

Tell me when Margaret Clark, Kirsten Beyer or any Pocket employee said that the death was irretrievably permanent. I believe Margaret said that Janeway was "dead for now", and would not be alive at the end of "Full Circle". However, nothing has even been written beyond that point yet, IIRC, although Kirsten is scheduled to do a sequel, and is presumably working on it now/soon.

 

[RonG]

As for noticing that Janeway was killed off, many Janeway fans did notice but they could never imagine that the character was killed off permanently.

Tell me when Margaret Clark, Kirsten Beyer or any Pocket employee said that the death was irretrievably permanent. I believe Margaret said that Janeway was "dead for now", and would not be alive at the end of "Full Circle". However, nothing has even been written beyond that point yet, IIRC, although Kirsten is scheduled to do a sequel, and is presumably working on it now/soon.

Would it be petty of me to ask Kirsten, Margeret Clark etc., to keep Janeway dead?

Quality of storytelling and plot development be damned
To resurrect ol' Kate would reward the Militant Janeway Fans (tm)!
Once the line is crossed, how long before angry Borg fans start clamoring for the Collective's return??

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'm one of those who skipped Babylon 5 after Sinclair left.

Gosh, what about before Kathryn arrived on Voyager to take over from that dowdy, French-accented Elizabeth Janeway, the original matriarch of the ship?

Too bad that Kirk guy had to replace Pike, too.

Somehow it's bizarre and sad that we spent the day arguing about a fictional death when this was happening only a few hundred miles away from me...
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25024636-5005961,00.html

 

[Dayton Ward]

I'm actually a bit tired of constantly seeing my comments in this thread being turned to something worse than they were meant to be.

Welcome to the club. We've had jackets made and everything.

 

[Steve Roby]

just wondering... After Before Dishonor was first published, was TrekBBS littered with angry Janeway fans?

I find it odd that approx. a year and a half later there's this vocal backlash (AFAIK by a loud \ outspoken minority)... Did no one care back in 2007?

not that i recall. IIIRC, most of the backlash seemed centred on the ludicrousness of the Borg cube eating Pluto, the mischaracterisations of Kadohata, Leybenzon and T'lana including an arguement over the rightness of the mutiny, and the 'inapproriate' humour.

This point has been made and answered once or twice, but here's the thing: in 2007, a lot of us didn't believe Janeway's death was intended to be permanent. As I said in discussions at the time, dead people don't have conversations and go for a coffee with powerful aliens. They're too busy being dead. IIRC, the fact that, as far as the editors and writers were concerned, the Lady Q scene didn't mean anything and Janeway was actually dead didn't come out until some time later. So this isn't a viable gotcha.

 

[JWolf]

Does anyone actually have anything to say that's not already been said?

 

[Steve Roby]

Does anyone actually have anything to say that's not already been said?

No, but I think someone's already asked that...

 

[Brit]

It doesn't matter what has been said or not, what matters it that I have a voice and I will use it and I will used it as I see fit.

Brit

 

[RonG]

indeed...

what do you think about defying expectations and participating in other threads?

Perhaps threads that do not include Janeway dying, reborn as the feminist icon of Trek and such?

What do you think about Section 31, for instance?

 

[Tachyon]

If discussing about Janeway annoys you, or the mere existent of Voyager and/or Janeway fans is making you uncomfortable, there is a way out of this thread without ever turning back.

 

[RonG]

If discussing about Janeway annoys you, or the mere existent of Voyager and/or Janeway fans is making you uncomfortable, there is a way out of this thread without ever turning back.

Not at all. True, VGR was never a favorite of mine, but it was another look at 24th century Trek, and as that (at the very least) is indeed worthy IMO of discussion and consideration by Trek fans.

Further, Katherine Janeway is a central character in VGR, filling the same part as Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Archer. It's only natural that the character has loyal fans, who of course would be upset about her death.

I get that, I truly do, and furthermore, I respect your opinion and feelings on the matter.

However, in recent days (entering the third week IIRC), the expression of opinion and disagreement with the (year and a half old) decision to kill Janeway has turned into personal attacks on writers (past and current)and editors, with repetition ad nauseum about how the only good VGR is Janeway-centered and how removing Janeway from current TrekLit is a blow against feminism (!).

When the arguments were first made, it was fine (I totally disagree with practically everything expressed by the Militant Janeway Fans(tm) but that doesn't detract from their opinions' validity as just that...). Now, I feel that this is quickly becoming tired and on the verge of trolling.

This is in no way meant as disrespect for you, Tachyon, or any other Janeway fan, but really - don't you think this has gone overboard? I mean, what are you trying to accomplish? Do you want everyone to admit that Janeway needs to come back? Fine - I admit it .

Now can we move on??

 

[Brit]

What do you think about Section 31, for instance?

I'm rather ambivalent about it. I think the premise fit Deep Space Nine and furthered their story line in that it was an opportunity to make a statement about how a society works under pressure. I would also say that the existence of section 31 in name after the Dominion War could be the source of dissension in the Federation. How do you justify them in peace times, when a lot of what they actually did was unthinkable to many people, (genocide for example). There are a lot of ways one can go with this conversation. Luther Sloan was a patriot, he cared about the Federation, but his methods were counter to the Federation belief that the ends do not justify means.

And I do have a few questions.

The Romulans did believe the ends justified the means. So given that pretext, what do you think is the course of Romulan society after Shinzon. This is the one story line that I believe is being underutilizied. Vulcans with mind control put the impetus of controlling their violent nature on the individual. Romulans depended on society. What do you think happened to that societal control after the Romulan senate was destroyed, and followed by Shinzon's death?

Why did Seven of Nine alone possess an emotion dampener?

Finally I also don't care for the way the Trill have been used in the books. One reason is that I think we have a lot more to explore. We have seen plenty of examples of how the symbiont affects the host. But think about the first host or maybe more importantly the second host, how does the host affect the symbiont?

I would love to debate any of this.

Brit

 

[Gorf]

um... since the next Voyager book is Full Circle (which hasn't been out yet...) isn't a bit premature to complain?? Not that I think Janeway should (or will for that matter) come back, but shouldn't you tried-and-true JFans read the in' book before getting your neuro-gel-packs in a bunch?

I don't think so. We've already been told that Janeway's going to die in this book and we know how because it happened in the previous TNG book.

Several of us have stated time and time again that we do not wish to read a book like this; we do not wish to read about her death or her crew grieving (or what's left of it considering many doesn't seem to be part of the Voyager universe anymore).

If that information wasn't common knowledge, sure, but since it is...no way should we wait and waste our money.

I'm rather grateful that I've been told in advance cause now I can save myself the heartache and my bank account and go buy something else that will suit me better.

 

[Gorf]

Tell me when Margaret Clark, Kirsten Beyer or any Pocket employee said that the death was irretrievably permanent. I believe Margaret said that Janeway was "dead for now", and would not be alive at the end of "Full Circle". However, nothing has even been written beyond that point yet, IIRC, although Kirsten is scheduled to do a sequel, and is presumably working on it now/soon.

And maybe that's the root of the problem. They haven't decided and there is no comfort in that for me.

As I said yesterday, I don't care if they have kept a backdoor open in case this backfires and they might need it. I think that's a load of crap. Either you do or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

They need to make up their minds and decide, who to please. Several os us and me in particular need to know FOR SURE that they will bring her back and in the second book or I'm as turned off as I ever was.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Here I agree. It is possible to change things if you speak out about what is wrong. I've always thought that it's every persons duty to put down the foot and say "No!" when something is wrong or when the development goes in the wrong direction. Remember that those who makes history are those who have the guts to stand up for what they think is right.

[/quote]

Lynx one quick little question.

HOW THE FRAK IS JANEWAY'S DEATH A HUGH FRAKKING MORAL ISSUE THAT YOU HAVE TO TAKE A STAND AGAINST! IT ISN'T EVEN A MORAL ISSUE IT'S A CREATIVE CHOICE BY THE GUYS IN CHARGE OF THE NOVEL LINE!

Now having got that out of my system. Lynx racism is something that is wrong that you take a stand against. Sexism is something you take a stand against (AND NO BRIT JANEWAY'S DEATH ISN'T SEXISM JUST BECAUSE ONLY THE STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER IN A COMMAND POSITION THAT YOU PERSONALLY PERFER GETS KILLED!) Craping on moral issues a nation was founded on with the excuse that we're at war is something you take a stand against.

SO QUIT TREATING THIS LIKE POCKET BOOK KILLED A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY!

 

[Brit]

SO QUIT TREATING THIS LIKE POCKET BOOK KILLED A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY!

Just as soon as you quit treating us like our opinion doesn't count. As soon as you acknowledge the fact that fans are upset, they have a right to be upset and they have the right to be vocal about it.

So no we are not going away.

Brit

 

[Hartzilla2007]

SO QUIT TREATING THIS LIKE POCKET BOOK KILLED A MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY!

Just as soon as you quit treating us like our opinion doesn't count. As soon as you acknowledge the fact that fans are upset, they have a right to be upset and they have the right to be vocal about it.

So no we are not going away.

Brit

I will when you can express that opinion WITHOUT insulting the writers and editors. You what Tay, Tachyon, and Gorf are a few others are doing.