Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Lynx]

Why can't we have our favorites they way they were supposed to be?

So, regular characters can't ever die in the books.

Can they lose a limb?

Can they get married? (Only if to a certain other regular of whom "the fans" approve.)

Can they have arguments with close friends that result in dissolved relationships?

Can they change careers? (Definitely no promotions to admiral.)

Can they do any growing and changing at all?

Some people do have an ability to exaggerate things and to twist other posters comments into something much worse than they were meant to be.

 

[Thrawn]

A word of advice to those of us who are trying to reason with unreasonable people:

Let it go. Some people are just hysterical reactionaries. There's no reason to continue feeding the trolls and posting in this thread. They have a specific list of demands, and to them, no story has any validity if it doesn't meet their criteria. Let them ramble all they want in this thread, but there's no reason to keep feeding their desire to fight someone over it.

To those of you who opposed the Janeway death without getting personally insulting or behaving like hysterical reactionaries who think that no story has validity unless it fits into an arbitrary box:

Thank you. You guys were class acts, and I mean that. Some people can't disagree without getting personal and treating it like it's a moral issue, but you guys can, and I'd much rather have debated you guys than certain individuals engaging in hysterics, lies, and moral judgments of others on the basis of Janeway's death.

I think I've reached the point where I agree with you again, and I'll stop my back-and-forth with Lynx. It's just so frustrating because this is a shocking creative decision, and so one that can and has produced a huge and thoughtful debate that has made me, at least, reevaluate my opinion on the decision a few times (not change my opinion, but at least think about it and analyze it differently). All of my most dearly held opinions result from debates with people who disagree; I'm the kind of person that has a hard time figuring out what my opinion is about something until I talk about it with someone else. And I've really enjoyed those kinds of conversations in this thread and the others. (I have to especially mention kimc, who I started off thinking was a completely annoying reactionary, but through these arguments I have really come to appreciate her perspective. I love when I'm proven wrong about people! It was great fun.)

But people like Lynx just kill it, make the whole thing more hysterical and useless. It's hard to have a conversation about impact of or reasoning behind something when people keep insisting it's a moral wrong in the first place. I think we've done a pretty good job at making sure we listen to and try to appreciate some of the angrier fans, and I'm very happy that a lot of them are sticking around and participating. But at times it's very difficult to prevent this thread from becoming completely stupid.

Anyway, for whatever part I've played in adding to / encouraging the hysteria, I apologize, and I'll try only to respond to posts that have some kind of rationality in them. I like this conversation, I don't think it's over, and I think there are intelligent things left to say.

 

[Semah]

A word of advice to those of us who are trying to reason with unreasonable people:

Let it go. Some people are just hysterical reactionaries. There's no reason to continue feeding the trolls and posting in this thread. They have a specific list of demands, and to them, no story has any validity if it doesn't meet their criteria. Let them ramble all they want in this thread, but there's no reason to keep feeding their desire to fight someone over it.

But...but then they'll win





Seriously though, this is good advice, and I'm taking it. Sniping at hardheaded folks has lost its novelty for me. I am enjoying all the reasonable discussion that's going on quite a lot, though and hope the thread starts to focus on that.

 

[kimc]

(I have to especially mention kimc, who I started off thinking was a completely annoying reactionary, but through these arguments I have really come to appreciate her perspective. I love when I'm proven wrong about people! It was great fun.)

Well in all fairness I do have an Italian temper and yes I'm pretty torqued about the decision. I've been waiting years for a decent series of Janeway novels which is looking less and less likely to happen. Still, nothing has really changed. This being science fiction anything can happen so the wait will continue. C'est la vie. In the meantime there's been some interesting discussion which is a good thing.

I do appeciate those who have been friendly and welcoming to the newer posters even if you disagree with them. I have a soft spot for newbies and I think we all benefit when they decide to stick around.

 

[Marie1]

A word of advice to those of us who are trying to reason with unreasonable people:

Let it go. Some people are just hysterical reactionaries. There's no reason to continue feeding the trolls and posting in this thread. They have a specific list of demands, and to them, no story has any validity if it doesn't meet their criteria. Let them ramble all they want in this thread, but there's no reason to keep feeding their desire to fight someone over it.

But...but then they'll win





Seriously though, this is good advice, and I'm taking it. Sniping at hardheaded folks has lost its novelty for me. I am enjoying all the reasonable discussion that's going on quite a lot, though and hope the thread starts to focus on that.

No one likes a quitter...
Joking, thats what one of my teachers used to say...

But I think this has gone around several times... too much emotion, it is illogical.

 

[MarciaCat]

I finally finished reading through this thread (in three sittings); do I get an award?!

I promised myself I wouldn't post here but I'm just going to add my 2 cents.

I own and have read each and every Star Trek fiction book (one exception; I haven't gotten around to reading the DS9 and Voyager Starfleet Academy series yet). I have my own likes/dislikes with each series in both filmed and written forms, but none bad enough to drop them completely although the Voyager: Homecoming and Spirit Walk duologies came quite close; I'm sure if I looked at myself in a mirror while reading them I would have seen something like this --> or this --> ; I don't see the need to go into detail about what I disliked, they've been mentioned by others in this thread. I did however enjoy the String Theory trilogy (it was a slow start though) after going into it with meager expectations so I look forward to reading what Kirsten Beyer does to move the series forward.

If I never see the words 'annihilated' or 'assassinated' applied to Janeway again I'll be happy.

Now I'm off to brew a pot of tea and tackle the "Carrot" thread. Wish me luck!

 

[Thrawn]

I finally finished reading through this thread (in three sittings); do I get an award?!

No, but you might deserve an award for this:

I own and have read each and every Star Trek fiction book (one exception; I haven't gotten around to reading the DS9 and Voyager Starfleet Academy series yet).

Wow.

If I never see the words 'annihilated' or 'assassinated' applied to Janeway again I'll be happy.

And it's hard to argue with this!

 

[MarciaCat]

I finally finished reading through this thread (in three sittings); do I get an award?!

No, but you might deserve an award for this:

I own and have read each and every Star Trek fiction book (one exception; I haven't gotten around to reading the DS9 and Voyager Starfleet Academy series yet).

Wow.

It's true; most of 'em are in storage bins, the rest of my limited shelf space is devoted to cat books.

If I never see the words 'annihilated' or 'assassinated' applied to Janeway again I'll be happy.

And it's hard to argue with this!

I'm surprised no one else mentioned it!!

 

[Ktrek]

I finally finished reading through this thread (in three sittings); do I get an award?!

I promised myself I wouldn't post here but I'm just going to add my 2 cents.

I own and have read each and every Star Trek fiction book (one exception; I haven't gotten around to reading the DS9 and Voyager Starfleet Academy series yet). I have my own likes/dislikes with each series in both filmed and written forms, but none bad enough to drop them completely although the Voyager: Homecoming and Spirit Walk duologies came quite close; I'm sure if I looked at myself in a mirror while reading them I would have seen something like this --> or this --> ; I don't see the need to go into detail about what I disliked, they've been mentioned by others in this thread. I did however enjoy the String Theory trilogy (it was a slow start though) after going into it with meager expectations so I look forward to reading what Kirsten Beyer does to move the series forward.

If I never see the words 'annihilated' or 'assassinated' applied to Janeway again I'll be happy.

Now I'm off to brew a pot of tea and tackle the "Carrot" thread. Wish me luck!

Wow! if you have endured this entire thread in three sittings I think you do deserve at least a commendation! That would be some work!

And to have read every Star Trek book is quite a feat in itself too! I own them all but I can't lay claim to having accomplished that! I have read most of them though!

BTW...Have you heard that Janeway has been....annihilated?

Kevin

 

[MarciaCat]

I finally finished reading through this thread (in three sittings); do I get an award?!

I promised myself I wouldn't post here but I'm just going to add my 2 cents.

I own and have read each and every Star Trek fiction book (one exception; I haven't gotten around to reading the DS9 and Voyager Starfleet Academy series yet). I have my own likes/dislikes with each series in both filmed and written forms, but none bad enough to drop them completely although the Voyager: Homecoming and Spirit Walk duologies came quite close; I'm sure if I looked at myself in a mirror while reading them I would have seen something like this --> or this --> ; I don't see the need to go into detail about what I disliked, they've been mentioned by others in this thread. I did however enjoy the String Theory trilogy (it was a slow start though) after going into it with meager expectations so I look forward to reading what Kirsten Beyer does to move the series forward.

If I never see the words 'annihilated' or 'assassinated' applied to Janeway again I'll be happy.

Now I'm off to brew a pot of tea and tackle the "Carrot" thread. Wish me luck!

Wow! if you have endured this entire thread in three sittings I think you do deserve at least a commendation! That would be some work!

And to have read every Star Trek book is quite a feat in itself too! I own them all but I can't lay claim to having accomplished that! I have read most of them though!

BTW...Have you heard that Janeway has been....annihilated?

Kevin

GRRRR!!! Why is there no rending of clothes and hair smiliey?

 

[Lynx]

A word of advice to those of us who are trying to reason with unreasonable people:

Let it go. Some people are just hysterical reactionaries. There's no reason to continue feeding the trolls and posting in this thread. They have a specific list of demands, and to them, no story has any validity if it doesn't meet their criteria. Let them ramble all they want in this thread, but there's no reason to keep feeding their desire to fight someone over it.

To those of you who opposed the Janeway death without getting personally insulting or behaving like hysterical reactionaries who think that no story has validity unless it fits into an arbitrary box:

Thank you. You guys were class acts, and I mean that. Some people can't disagree without getting personal and treating it like it's a moral issue, but you guys can, and I'd much rather have debated you guys than certain individuals engaging in hysterics, lies, and moral judgments of others on the basis of Janeway's death.

I think I've reached the point where I agree with you again, and I'll stop my back-and-forth with Lynx. It's just so frustrating because this is a shocking creative decision, and so one that can and has produced a huge and thoughtful debate that has made me, at least, reevaluate my opinion on the decision a few times (not change my opinion, but at least think about it and analyze it differently). All of my most dearly held opinions result from debates with people who disagree; I'm the kind of person that has a hard time figuring out what my opinion is about something until I talk about it with someone else. And I've really enjoyed those kinds of conversations in this thread and the others. (I have to especially mention kimc, who I started off thinking was a completely annoying reactionary, but through these arguments I have really come to appreciate her perspective. I love when I'm proven wrong about people! It was great fun.)

But people like Lynx just kill it, make the whole thing more hysterical and useless. It's hard to have a conversation about impact of or reasoning behind something when people keep insisting it's a moral wrong in the first place. I think we've done a pretty good job at making sure we listen to and try to appreciate some of the angrier fans, and I'm very happy that a lot of them are sticking around and participating. But at times it's very difficult to prevent this thread from becoming completely stupid.

Anyway, for whatever part I've played in adding to / encouraging the hysteria, I apologize, and I'll try only to respond to posts that have some kind of rationality in them. I like this conversation, I don't think it's over, and I think there are intelligent things left to say.

Another personal attack. Is that really necessary?

I'm very sorry that I haven't lived up to your expectations when it comes to debating. But as I've stated before, I do feel annoyed and angry by the decision to kill of Janeway.

Honestly, it's not my intention to insult anyone and I have no intention either to end up in endless arguing with other Star Trek fans. But there are some things I simply can't accept.

And no, I don't find the decision to kill off Janeway "creative" at all, not compared with all the "creative" stories which could have been made with the character still alive. "Shocking" might be a better word since it actually did shock and annoy many fans. But when that novelty is over, there will be nothing left than empty stories with some sad remains of the once so fantastic Voyager crew.

 

[MarciaCat]

If I never see the words 'annihilated' or 'assassinated' applied to Janeway again I'll be happy.

And it's hard to argue with this!

Two-thirds of the way through the "Carrot" thread I have to add 'betrayed' (Janeway fans) to the list!

 

[MarciaCat]

I finally finished reading through this thread (in three sittings); do I get an award?!


If I never see the words 'annihilated' or 'assassinated' applied to Janeway again I'll be happy.

Now I'm off to brew a pot of tea and tackle the "Carrot" thread. Wish me luck!

Wow! if you have endured this entire thread in three sittings I think you do deserve at least a commendation! That would be some work!

BTW...Have you heard that Janeway has been....annihilated?

Kevin

It's about 1:30 a.m. and I've now finished the "Carrot" (and other assorted vegetables ) thread; I just wanted to thank you for putting into words-so I didn't have to go to the trouble of doing it myself - how I feel about Voyager in post #130 of the Carrot thread which I will quote here--

The character of Janeway was often poorly written too and she contradicted herself. One minute she upholds the prime directive and the next she writes her own rules as she goes along, and she did. Misogyny had nothing to do with the poorer ratings of VOY nor the consistently bad reviews of episodes by fans. It was frustrating to see a show that had so much potential not live up to it. Even so the show had it's bright moments and fine characters too. I have to say that the numbered books in the VOY series are not some of the best Trek books ever written. I had high hopes that the post finale books (please quit calling them relaunch!) would change things for the better and to some degree, at least for me, they did.

It's to be expected that once the ship was back home things would never be the same. To try and keep the band together just for old time sake would not have worked. I fully understand the editors trying to find viable ways to move the story forward. After all the show was called Star Trek:Voyager and NOT Star Trek: Janeway or Janeway/Chakotay or anything else. It is named after a ship and a ship that naturally would go through changes in personnel as crew members moved on to other assignments, retired, were killed in the line of duty or whatever. Yes for 7 years Voyager's stories mainly revolved around the 7 main crew members. Would it be reasonable to expect them to all stay together once Voyager returned home? Of course not!

For me that says it all.

Of course it is just my (and yours and your wife's) opinion!

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You want to know something Janeway didn't die in the Borg incident from before Dishoner. What really happened is that Janeway got in a stareing contest with Captain Robau. Sadly Janeway didn't know that Robu uses his eyes to focus his awesome badassery, so Janeway found herself looking directly into super concentrated Badass. As a result she was reduced to a puddle after dieing in an extremely horrible way as her body melted at a cellular level. Section 31 later falsified evidence that she was killed because of the Borg to cover up this slight imbarassment While I doubt this makes any of her fans happier, I though you deserved to know the truth.

 

[MarciaCat]

If I never see the words 'annihilated' or 'assassinated' applied to Janeway again I'll be happy.

And it's hard to argue with this!

Two-thirds of the way through the "Carrot" thread I have to add 'betrayed' (Janeway fans) to the list!

Adding 'destroyed' (as applied to the Janeway character)

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Hey I know an interesting thing they could do with brining Janeway back, Bring her back as a zombie!

Just think Star Trek: Zombies, I mean it worked for Marvel.

 

[JoeZhang]

Hey I know an interesting thing they could do with brining Janeway back, Bring her back as a zombie!

Just think Star Trek: Zombies, I mean it worked for Marvel.

Did I dream it or did anyone ever do a .VS comic ?

You know arena setting - Gorn vs Klingon Borg vs Founder - that sort of thing?

 

[AuntKate]

Once again, it's claimed that the Voyager crew "can't" be brought back together now that they are back in the AQ, and yet that is exactly what happened in the TOS movies time and time again. It only "can't" be done because the editors don't want to do it. Instead, certain "popular" characters are rolled up into the AQ plots, which is simply not what Voyager fans want to read about. Do we really have to have the crews of all three series in the same situation?

I also take exception with the characterization of Janeway as self-contradictory, obeying the Prime Directive in one episode and going her own way the next. Whenever I read that kind of generalization, I wonder if the poster has actually watched the series from beginning to end. It simply doesn't happen that way; when she makes difficult decisions, she does so in a thoughtful, even agonizing way. It's as inaccurate as judging her based on just one or two "impossible" situations that she faced in the DQ (the infamous Tuvix or Equinox paradoxes, for example).

Whether she is melted or absorbed, Janeway deserved better.

 

[Thrawn]

I recently watched the show start to finish, and I think that her characterization was, if not contradictory, certainly more towards the pigheaded and less towards the noble end. Which is actually what I liked most about her, actually; there's one episode towards the end of 3rd, I think, where she basically ruins a whole culture forever because they piss her off. I thought it was awesome; no way Picard would've had that kind of righteous fury.

But I suppose that's a conversation for elsewhere.

More on the topic of Lit, I actually don't think it was that the crew "couldn't" be, just that it was more plausible and made a better overall story if they weren't. I can completely understand wanting Voyager to remain separate and only read Voyager stories, but I don't think that's the way they're looking at it; I think they're looking at it as one big story of which Voyager is just a facet. Most of the main characters of the post-finale continuations have bounced all over the place. TNG no longer contains all the TNG characters; DS9 no longer contains all the DS9 characters; etc. Voyager is no different.

 

[Lynx]

Once again, it's claimed that the Voyager crew "can't" be brought back together now that they are back in the AQ, and yet that is exactly what happened in the TOS movies time and time again. It only "can't" be done because the editors don't want to do it. Instead, certain "popular" characters are rolled up into the AQ plots, which is simply not what Voyager fans want to read about. Do we really have to have the crews of all three series in the same situation?

I also take exception with the characterization of Janeway as self-contradictory, obeying the Prime Directive in one episode and going her own way the next. Whenever I read that kind of generalization, I wonder if the poster has actually watched the series from beginning to end. It simply doesn't happen that way; when she makes difficult decisions, she does so in a thoughtful, even agonizing way. It's as inaccurate as judging her based on just one or two "impossible" situations that she faced in the DQ (the infamous Tuvix or Equinox paradoxes, for example).

Whether she is melted or absorbed, Janeway deserved better.

I agree here. I think that the different relaunches started to lose its affection for many fans when they started to split up the original crews. It's probably the main reason why so many fans prefer fan fiction before the books.

As for Janeway as self-contradictory, when that happened I think it was most about sloppy, uninspired writing which became worse in the later part of the series when most of the storytelling was about Seven's attempts to regain or find her humanity while other character plots were half-done. However, when Janeway did some contradictional, she did that after much consideration. Note also that the other captains weren't much better, even Picard did violate the Prime Directive at some occasions.

Anyway, janeway is a great character who deserves better than to be wasted by killing her off. Doing so will make Star Trek lose a character who could contribute a lot to many inetersting story lines.

Personally I find Janeway a character who it's very easy to write about and come up with good stories about as well. I can't understand that they want to waste her.