Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[DimesDan]

Actually I'm indifferent on the matter, and instead of trying to think you know what I may or may not understand, just tell me your reasoning, either in this thread or in PM, I'm easy, but if I can actually understand your reasoning you might be surprised!

Fine, I give up. I've done plenty of that in this thread and I'm not likely to come up with anything better that will cover all of that and make you understand so I'll just leave that argument with you and say whatever.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm really not, plus I don't understand why you and others are so hyper emotional over this subject and I just just wish it explained to me and educated on the matter. is that really such a bad thing?

 

[Lynx]

Please provide a link to any post, anywhere, where anyone who was responsible for this decision or who participated in its execution said anything of the sort. Indeed, link to a post where anyone affiliated with Pocket Books in even the most fleeting capacity said it.

Well, no one have said exactly those words.

But I get the impression that the meaning in the official statements are........well, similar in some ways. Sort of, if you like it, fine. If you don't like it, bye-bye.

I'm also referring to the "Kes case" here as well which Pocket Books wasn't involved in.

 

[MilitantJaneway]

Actually I'm indifferent on the matter, and instead of trying to think you know what I may or may not understand, just tell me your reasoning, either in this thread or in PM, I'm easy, but if I can actually understand your reasoning you might be surprised!

Fine, I give up. I've done plenty of that in this thread and I'm not likely to come up with anything better that will cover all of that and make you understand so I'll just leave that argument with you and say whatever.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm really not, plus I don't understand why you and others are so hyper emotional over this subject and I just just wish it explained to me and educated on the matter. is that really such a bad thing?

Dude I tried, I responded to your post-look back. I cant PM you because I dont have enough posts!

 

[Steve Roby]

I just wonder what your reaction would have been if they killed off Seven instead.

Interestingly enough, recent developments in the books strongly suggest that Seven, though not dead, is going to be a very different person in future books. There have not been hundreds of posts on the subject.

the FUCK?!

Dear captcalhoun:

YOU'RE. NOT. HELPING.

i'm not insulting anyone I'm am completely flabbergasted as to why anyone would equate having a female captain as a series lead means they are 'included' and 'allowed' to be a Trek fan. it just seems such a completely surreal thing to say. Janeway has got nothing to do with it specifically. i'm not insulting anyone. i am asking why does a person need a female captain or female lead character to feel 'included'? there are plenty of female characters, captains and not. and FYI, leola, that post was not directed at you in any way shape or form.

and that's one of the reasons these threads are driving me up the wall. someone makes a comment, someone else asks what they mean and then a third or fourth person leaps on the second and starts slinging around baseless accusations and insulting comments and making Everest out of a dimple.

Somewhat better. You have the kernel of a valid point and you're getting closer to writing a post that won't make people who disagree with you write you off and use you as proof that this is a hostile environment. Still needs work, though.

 

[Brit]

Actually I'm indifferent on the matter, and instead of trying to think you know what I may or may not understand, just tell me your reasoning, either in this thread or in PM, I'm easy, but if I can actually understand your reasoning you might be surprised!

Fine, I give up. I've done plenty of that in this thread and I'm not likely to come up with anything better that will cover all of that and make you understand so I'll just leave that argument with you and say whatever.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm really not, plus I don't understand why you and others are so hyper emotional over this subject and I just just wish it explained to me and educated on the matter. is that really such a bad thing?

It's not a bad thing, but maybe it's not possible because it's tied up with feelings that cannot be accurately articulated. I'm not trying to put you on the spot here and I really am not looking for your answer, but just think about how do you convince us that you are indifferent? You can say you are but proving it is another thing. My inclination is to take you at your word.

Brit

 

[Dayton Ward]

Well, no one have said exactly those words.

But I get the impression that the meaning in the official statements are........well, similar in some ways. Sort of, if you like it, fine. If you don't like it, bye-bye.

No one's told you that, either.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

captcalhoun wrote "and that's one of the reasons these threads are driving me up the wall. someone makes a comment, someone else asks what they mean and then a third or fourth person leaps on the second and starts slinging around baseless accusations and insulting comments and making Everest out of a dimple."

Nowhere did I say your comments were directed at me. This is a public board, however, so all comments do affect the general tone when others read the thread. That kind of response makes me feel like I don't want to participate, to save my energy for elsewhere, because of the unwelcoming tone of that reply. That was my point, in relation to the earlier posts about being a welcoming board to newbies.

(sorry, screwed up the quote thing again.)

I should warn you that if the Trek Lit forum is uninviting to you then you might want to stay away from the Trek XI forum becuase we usually EAT the other posters there.

 

[joyofvgr]

Actually I'm indifferent on the matter, and instead of trying to think you know what I may or may not understand, just tell me your reasoning, either in this thread or in PM, I'm easy, but if I can actually understand your reasoning you might be surprised!

Fine, I give up. I've done plenty of that in this thread and I'm not likely to come up with anything better that will cover all of that and make you understand so I'll just leave that argument with you and say whatever.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm really not, plus I don't understand why you and others are so hyper emotional over this subject and I just just wish it explained to me and educated on the matter. is that really such a bad thing?

For me Janeway was a character I could identify with. Without her, Voyager just becomes another Trek series. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I like Trek, but not to the extent that I liked Voyager and Captain Janeway. I really liked the inter personal relationships on Voyager, more so than the other series. Those relationships really centered around Janeway in my opinion. I always wished there was more Janeway/Torres friendship, for example. I liked the Janeway/Paris senario, Janeway/Tuvok friendship and Janeway/Seven mentoring and of course I loved J/C. There were many things I loved about Janeway and the Voyager story just won't be the same without her. I wasn't even crazy about Golden's relaunch novels because Janeway became a background character, but I felt there was a least a chance for her in future novels.

 

[joyofvgr]

captcalhoun wrote "and that's one of the reasons these threads are driving me up the wall. someone makes a comment, someone else asks what they mean and then a third or fourth person leaps on the second and starts slinging around baseless accusations and insulting comments and making Everest out of a dimple."

Nowhere did I say your comments were directed at me. This is a public board, however, so all comments do affect the general tone when others read the thread. That kind of response makes me feel like I don't want to participate, to save my energy for elsewhere, because of the unwelcoming tone of that reply. That was my point, in relation to the earlier posts about being a welcoming board to newbies.

(sorry, screwed up the quote thing again.)

I should warn you that if the Trek Lit forum is uninviting to you then you might want to stay away from the Trek XI forum becuase we usually EAT the other posters there.

Oh don't even get me started on the new movie!

 

[Hartzilla2007]

captcalhoun wrote "and that's one of the reasons these threads are driving me up the wall. someone makes a comment, someone else asks what they mean and then a third or fourth person leaps on the second and starts slinging around baseless accusations and insulting comments and making Everest out of a dimple."

Nowhere did I say your comments were directed at me. This is a public board, however, so all comments do affect the general tone when others read the thread. That kind of response makes me feel like I don't want to participate, to save my energy for elsewhere, because of the unwelcoming tone of that reply. That was my point, in relation to the earlier posts about being a welcoming board to newbies.

(sorry, screwed up the quote thing again.)

I should warn you that if the Trek Lit forum is uninviting to you then you might want to stay away from the Trek XI forum becuase we usually EAT the other posters there.

Oh don't even get me started on the new movie!

I should also warn you that if you mock the new movie Captain Robau will destroy your soul and then wipe Voyager and her crew from existance.

 

[Lynx]

Fine, I give up. I've done plenty of that in this thread and I'm not likely to come up with anything better that will cover all of that and make you understand so I'll just leave that argument with you and say whatever.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm really not, plus I don't understand why you and others are so hyper emotional over this subject and I just just wish it explained to me and educated on the matter. is that really such a bad thing?

For me Janeway was a character I could identify with. Without her, Voyager just becomes another Trek series. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I like Trek, but not to the extent that I liked Voyager and Captain Janeway. I really liked the inter personal relationships on Voyager, more so than the other series. Those relationships really centered around Janeway in my opinion. I always wished there was more Janeway/Torres friendship, for example. I liked the Janeway/Paris senario, Janeway/Tuvok friendship and Janeway/Seven mentoring and of course I loved J/C. There were many things I loved about Janeway and the Voyager story just won't be the same without her. I wasn't even crazy about Golden's relaunch novels because Janeway became a background character, but I felt there was a least a chance for her in future novels.

Don't forget the Janeway/Kes scenario.

I also agree on your comment about Golden's relaunch novels. Even though I like Golden as a writer, I wasn't that happy with the overall scenario in the relaunch books but despite writing some rather critical reviwes on some forums, I kept supporting the relaunch (by buying some of the books and stating that I found the events in the relaunch books as much "canon" as the TV series) because I was hoping that something good would come out of the relaunch in the long run.

I was wrong.

 

[CoriM]

Why is it that I have to break down your posts for you? You're intelligent and I firmly believe you know what you're doing, so i shouldn't have to do this, but I will

And since this is the first time I've responded to Brit, how exactly am I making her life miserable? By stating my opinion? If she (or you) has a problem with that, perhaps you shouldn't be on a BBS. I was not rude, I didn't flame. No need for the overreaction.

Oh darn, you made my life miserable and I didn't even notice. I had to go back several pages lol.

Nope not going anywhere you are all stuck with me.

Brit

And how exactly did you get from my post that I was telling you to leave?

Your bud is telling me I'm not supposed to disagree with you--that I have to "leave you alone."

Sorry, those of us who disagree with you have just as much right to express our opinion as you do. If you want total agreement, you can find it at VAMB.

Here you tell Brit that she should go somewhere else and shouldn't be here because you say that she can't handle disagreement, which btw she never said and neither did her "bud". They just said it was getting annoying. It's not your job to tell them where to go or that they don't belong here because you wrongly interpret that they can't handle the heat when in fact they're just annoyed at tactics.

Teya, if you want to cause trouble. Don't. We are not leaving no matter how much you try to force us out and put us in our place, we have a place right here as equal Trek fans and we will use it.

And where have I said that I want to "force you out and put you in your place"? Really, this is overreaction.

I have simply pointed out that the insistence that yours is the One True and Only Voyager Fandom and that you all post for all female Voyager fans is simply not true, and could be turning off more folks rather than gathering support.

You can pay attention or not, as you choose.

Here, you try to tell us to stop now because we're losing and more people are going to read the books because of us.

Again, as I said, you want us to go away, both by telling us where to go and what to do. You just dress it up so that you sound like your being helpfully condescending, but what you're really doing is trying to push us out.

We're not going and it's not your job to hint that we should.

 

[joyofvgr]

I'm not trying to argue, I'm really not, plus I don't understand why you and others are so hyper emotional over this subject and I just just wish it explained to me and educated on the matter. is that really such a bad thing?

For me Janeway was a character I could identify with. Without her, Voyager just becomes another Trek series. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I like Trek, but not to the extent that I liked Voyager and Captain Janeway. I really liked the inter personal relationships on Voyager, more so than the other series. Those relationships really centered around Janeway in my opinion. I always wished there was more Janeway/Torres friendship, for example. I liked the Janeway/Paris senario, Janeway/Tuvok friendship and Janeway/Seven mentoring and of course I loved J/C. There were many things I loved about Janeway and the Voyager story just won't be the same without her. I wasn't even crazy about Golden's relaunch novels because Janeway became a background character, but I felt there was a least a chance for her in future novels.

Don't forget the Janeway/Kes scenario.

I also agree on your comment about Golden's relaunch novels. Even though I like Golden as a writer, I wasn't that happy with the overall scenario in the relaunch books but despite writing some rather critical reviwes on some forums, I kept supporting the relaunch (by buying some of the books and stating that I found the events in the relaunch books as much "canon" as the TV series) because I was hoping that something good would come out of the relaunch in the long run.

I was wrong.

Sorry, Lynx. Janeway/Kes. Noted!! I might as well add Janeway/Neelix too.

 

[Gorf]

I'm not trying to argue, I'm really not, plus I don't understand why you and others are so hyper emotional over this subject and I just just wish it explained to me and educated on the matter. is that really such a bad thing?

Nope, trying to understand is never a bad thing. I'm just not sure that I'd be able to explain it in a way that would make you understand. Not after 49 pages.

Guess I'll try after all ,but I might as well make it here.

I'm a sap, I'm a romantic at heart, I'm a lot of things and one of them is passionate about Janeway.

Star Trek was a cultish thing to me before Voyager. Something I wouldn't even consider watching if I had the opportunity. I'd seen a bit of TNG here and there, but it wasn't to my liking. Boring is the word that I'd would have used at the time.

I loved Star Wars though, still does, so it's not just sci-fi that I dislike (I also love BSG). I guess the fairytale setting and the humor of Star Wars (Han Solo can always make me laugh) is what got me hooked on those movies, even though I was just a little girl.

One night I'm at home and there's absolutely nothing of interest on tv. Well, Star Trek Voyager (Caretaker) has just begun on Swedish tv and after some debate I figure...why not, how bad can it be? After all I could always turn it off again, right?

Wrong! I was immediately hooked and the reason was the characters.

I love the characters on Voyager and over the years I've discovered that often one of my main reasons for liking a specific show is its characters; actual content or lack there off doesn't mean much to me if the characters are interesting enough and on Voyager they were just that.

I love Janeway - her passion, her strength, her compassion, her pain, her guilt, her humor, the way she interacts with her crew, the fact that she believes in every crew member and are willing to go the distance and give each and every one of them a second chance, her refusal to be bullied or manipulated and her anger when she is anyway, and all the many faulty sides to her character that makes her so deeply human to me.

I also love Tom Paris - my gosh...how to explain Tom Paris. Don't think I can. Lets just say that I love all the complexities that make up his personality.

B'Elanna - what would Voyager be without it's passionate and sometimes rather violent Klingon chief engineer. I love B'Elanna. She hides it well, but in her heart she's really just as soft as most other women, even if she'll never admit it.

The EMH - oh boy...his sarcasm gets me everytime and I'm conflicted on who I love the most - Janeway or the EMH. He's wonderful.

Those are my four favourite characters on the show.

Yes, I'm a J/C fan and so I accept Chakotay being an important part as well since there will be no J/C without the C, but Chakotay by himself, I find rather boring.

However, what I'm trying to say is that I got hooked on the show because of its diverse set of characters and the special bond they built and shared over the years due to the many ups and downs that they faced and shared on a daily basis.

The Voyager characters are special to me because most of them are filled with faults that make them deeply lovable to me and intensely human.

Janeway just happens to be the most special to me, but I would object to any of their deaths, and I also object to splitting up the crew because by doing that you pull the characters and the bond that I find so important and so special apart, and that leaves very little left for me to enjoy in the Trek universe in general and the Voyager in particular.

I'm not sure this made it any clearer or helped you to understand, but at least I tried.

Janeway is Janeway to me because of all the both good and bad sides to her character. She is unique in my eyes and I love her, and a Voyager book without her simply isn't the Voyager that I grew to love, and if it's not what I grew to love, then why bother. There are other fish to catch and books to read.

 

[joyofvgr]

I should warn you that if the Trek Lit forum is uninviting to you then you might want to stay away from the Trek XI forum becuase we usually EAT the other posters there.

Oh don't even get me started on the new movie!

I should also warn you that if you mock the new movie Captain Robau will destroy your soul and then wipe Voyager and her crew from existance.

Actually, I'm willing to wait and see with the new movie. I am hoping that it is good and that it will rejuvenate the franchise, but that's a topic for another thread. I was just joking around.

 

[teya]

Why is it that I have to break down your posts for you? You're intelligent and I firmly believe you know what you're doing, so i shouldn't have to do this, but I will

Could you be any more condescending?

Oh darn, you made my life miserable and I didn't even notice. I had to go back several pages lol.

Nope not going anywhere you are all stuck with me.

Brit

And how exactly did you get from my post that I was telling you to leave?

Your bud is telling me I'm not supposed to disagree with you--that I have to "leave you alone."

Sorry, those of us who disagree with you have just as much right to express our opinion as you do. If you want total agreement, you can find it at VAMB.

Here you tell Brit that she should go somewhere else and shouldn't be here because you say that she can't handle disagreement, which btw she never said and neither did her "bud". They just said it was getting annoying. It's not your job to tell them where to go or that they don't belong here because you wrongly interpret that they can't handle the heat when in fact they're just annoyed at tactics.

Actually, I didn't. I simply said that this is an open board and there will be people who will disagree with her as well as those who agree. If she doesn't want disagreement, then perhaps an open board isn't her best bet, that's all.

Teya, if you want to cause trouble. Don't. We are not leaving no matter how much you try to force us out and put us in our place, we have a place right here as equal Trek fans and we will use it.

And where have I said that I want to "force you out and put you in your place"? Really, this is overreaction.

I have simply pointed out that the insistence that yours is the One True and Only Voyager Fandom and that you all post for all female Voyager fans is simply not true, and could be turning off more folks rather than gathering support.

You can pay attention or not, as you choose.

Here, you try to tell us to stop now because we're losing and more people are going to read the books because of us.

Again, as I said, you want us to go away, both by telling us where to go and what to do. You just dress it up so that you sound like your being helpfully condescending, but what you're really doing is trying to push us out.

We're not going and it's not your job to hint that we should.

You're reading way more into this than is there. As surprising as this may be, I really don't care if you stay or go.

BTW, telepathy is a sci-fi concept. You do not know what my motives are nor what I'm really "trying to do." To say you do is unnecessarily inflammatory.

 

[CoriM]

Could you be any more condescending?

Actually I wasn't trying to be condescending there, i was merely trying to tell you that I get the feeling you are bright and don't need to be told why someone would feel this way in explicit terms. It was a frustrated question

Actually, I didn't. I simply said that this is an open board and there will be people who will disagree with her as well as those who agree. If she doesn't want disagreement, then perhaps an open board isn't her best bet, that's all.

You can find less high handed ways to say what you did and it's still not your job

As surprising as this may be, I really don't care if you stay or go.

BTW, telepathy is a sci-fi concept. You do not know what my motives are nor what I'm really "trying to do." To say you do is unnecessarily inflammatory.

If you don't care, don't tell us what to do.

As far as telepathy, I don't have it, but I have instincts and my gut says you have a motive, even if it's just to get us to go away . I'm sorry if it's not true , but your behavior says you want control and I have to go by your behavior.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Oh don't even get me started on the new movie!

I should also warn you that if you mock the new movie Captain Robau will destroy your soul and then wipe Voyager and her crew from existance.

Actually, I'm willing to wait and see with the new movie. I am hoping that it is good and that it will rejuvenate the franchise, but that's a topic for another thread. I was just joking around.

Oh well so was I but I am serious about some of the posters here avoiding the Trek XI forum if they don't like threads where posters insult each other especially on May 8th when that day hits the forum will become a Madhouse.

 

[teya]

As far as telepathy, I don't have it, but I have instincts and my gut says you have a motive, even if it's just to get us to go away . I'm sorry if it's not true , but your behavior says you want control and I have to go by your behavior.

My behavior gets more and more testy when someone who doesn't know me keeps posting--incorrectly--about my ulterior motives.

I have told you why I posted what I did. You say "thanks, but no thanks." Fine.

Anything else you're reading into this is entirely your own imagination.

I will accept your apology, and even presume it was sincere.

 

[Rosalind]

.... and we've reached 1000 posts of this thread, so it is now closed. feel free to continue in the other thread.